ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Alan. Yes THAT Alan on October 23, 2022, 07:26:25 PM
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I recently bought this motorcycle. It has 2300 miles on it. There is the 13kw/h main battery, plus the extra secondary battery (I think it's 3 kw/h). So total, I have about 16 kw/h.
I charged it up to 100%, then left it plugged in overnight, to let it balance. When that was done, the tiny green LEDs on the main battery flashed green, with no red light, so all is well with the batteries.
But, driving around town, no highway driving at all, I'm only getting about a 100-mile range. I'm not accelerating like a maniac. My speed stays below 45 mph. Since the full charge, I've driven 10 miles, and the battery is down to 90%.
I thought it would be higher. Last year, I owned a 2014 SR with just the 11.4 kw/h battery, no secondary, and it also got about 100 miles in city driving. So shouldn't this new one be better? Does anybody else have a 2016 SR with the secondary battery? What kind of city-driving range do other people get?
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I have a 2018 S with the power tank battery. Riding under 40 mph, I will get around 150 miles on level ground. About 90 miles at 65 mph.
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I recently bought this motorcycle. It has 2300 miles on it. There is the 13kw/h main battery, plus the extra secondary battery (I think it's 3 kw/h). So total, I have about 16 kw/h.
I charged it up to 100%, then left it plugged in overnight, to let it balance. When that was done, the tiny green LEDs on the main battery flashed green, with no red light, so all is well with the batteries.
But, driving around town, no highway driving at all, I'm only getting about a 100-mile range. I'm not accelerating like a maniac. My speed stays below 45 mph. Since the full charge, I've driven 10 miles, and the battery is down to 90%.
I thought it would be higher. Last year, I owned a 2014 SR with just the 11.4 kw/h battery, no secondary, and it also got about 100 miles in city driving. So shouldn't this new one be better? Does anybody else have a 2016 SR with the secondary battery? What kind of city-driving range do other people get?
Figure around 8 miles per KWH of easy riding. But don't go by SOC. To do a fair test you will have to fully charge each & ride until they limp to a stop and then compare. Same route, same speed & conditions & at the same time.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Hi.
Is it cold where you are?
If its around 60F and especially below 50F you will see androp in battery output.
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Still in the mid 80s in south Texas. There's a loooong riding season down here!
Thanks to all for the input. That 8 miles per kw/h sounds like a reasonable rule-of-thumb. I'll keep riding it for several charges and see if it stays consistent.
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Get a device like a Kill-A-Watt that measures the total power input into the battery. Charge the bike to 100%, ride down to around 20-30% SOC, note SOC, note mileage traveled, charge back to 100%. Then do the math to determine battery capacity. I do this every time I recharge my 2017 FXS 6.5 modular just to be sure both batteries are still working.
It is entirely possible that your power tank (secondary battery) might not be working.
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Get a device like a Kill-A-Watt that measures the total power input into the battery. Charge the bike to 100%, ride down to around 20-30% SOC, note SOC, note mileage traveled, charge back to 100%. Then do the math to determine battery capacity. I do this every time I recharge my 2017 FXS 6.5 modular just to be sure both batteries are still working.
It is entirely possible that your power tank (secondary battery) might not be working.
When I bought my 2014 S its Power Tank was not working. When a Zero tech visited my dealer to see what was wrong, he discovered that one of the connecting cables had a bent pin, apparently caused when the bike was assembled at the factory. He also found that the PT had a defective component and it was not working. He repaired the connector and replaced the PT and the bike has been running fine ever since. :)
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When I bought my 2014 S its Power Tank was not working. When a Zero tech visited my dealer to see what was wrong, he discovered that one of the connecting cables had a bent pin, apparently caused when the bike was assembled at the factory. He also found that the PT had a defective component and it was not working. He repaired the connector and replaced the PT and the bike has been running fine ever since. :)
What were the symptoms of your defective power tank? Were there other symptoms besides reduced range?
-Don- Reno, NV
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When I bought my 2014 S its Power Tank was not working. When a Zero tech visited my dealer to see what was wrong, he discovered that one of the connecting cables had a bent pin, apparently caused when the bike was assembled at the factory. He also found that the PT had a defective component and it was not working. He repaired the connector and replaced the PT and the bike has been running fine ever since. :)
What were the symptoms of your defective power tank? Were there other symptoms besides reduced range?
-Don- Reno, NV
No. The lack of the expected range was what caught my attention.
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What were the symptoms of your defective power tank? Were there other symptoms besides reduced range?
-Don- Reno, NV
If the power tank battery doesn't get warm when charging after some time, then likely it isn't working.
When I bought my used 2017 FXS modular in 2020, one of the BMS wasn't working and thus one battery didn't charge. I noticed that one battery didn't get warm when charging. Between that, lack of range and lack of high enough kWh reading after a full charge, those were all signs something was wrong with one battery.
Even now with the BMS replaced and both batteries working, I have notice that one battery gets warmer than the other while charging. The warmer battery is the one that always worked. But I'm not sure whether that means that one is more degraded than the other or what?
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It's me again.
I've been riding around town for the past few months, and my city-driving range seems to be right around 112 miles per charge. I don't actually ride that far. I get to about 20-25% (85-90 miles) before recharging. This is the 13 kwh main battery plus the 2.9 kwh powertank battery for a total of 15.9 kwh.
Just a bit more than half of the 197-mile range that Zero advertised.
I just read the post about touching the powertank battery to see if it gets warm when charging. I'll try that later. But I have another question: I got my cellphone bluetoothed to the motorcycle, and can't find much information there that isn't already displayed on the dashboard. Both show that the battery is 100% charged. Is there any way to see how many kilowatt-hours are stored up in both of the batteries when they're charged?
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Is there any way to see how many kilowatt-hours are stored up in both of the batteries when they're charged?
Assuming that you are just using the on board charger, you could run the battery down to 50% or 25% or some other known percentage. Then plug it into a Kill-A-Watt meter and charge up to 100%. The Kill-A-Watt will show you how many kWh you put into the battery. So if you put in 7 kWh at a 50% battery level, then you know that your nominal battery capacity is 14 kWh.
On my 2017 FXS 6.5 modular, I keep a spreadsheet record of my SOC, distance traveled, kWh input, estimated nominal battery capacity and miles per kWh. It does vary. Below is a screenshot of the spreadsheet. I'd put in the data as a table but I have no idea how to use the table format here.
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It's me again.
I've been riding around town for the past few months, and my city-driving range seems to be right around 112 miles per charge. I don't actually ride that far. I get to about 20-25% (85-90 miles) before recharging. This is the 13 kwh main battery plus the 2.9 kwh powertank battery for a total of 15.9 kwh.
Just a bit more than half of the 197-mile range that Zero advertised.
I just read the post about touching the powertank battery to see if it gets warm when charging. I'll try that later. But I have another question: I got my cellphone bluetoothed to the motorcycle, and can't find much information there that isn't already displayed on the dashboard. Both show that the battery is 100% charged. Is there any way to see how many kilowatt-hours are stored up in both of the batteries when they're charged?
That kWh information was provided in an app during 2014, but then disappeared about a year later when Zero updated the app again.
BTW, my 2018 with PT usually shows a range of 180 miles when I start up in the morning. After riding 38 miles at 2/3 city speeds and 1/3 freeway speeds it still shows around 100 miles of range left at 70% SOC. And no "magic charging" either. But do I actually believe that range? Not really. ???
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I just now hooked my laptop to the OBDI2 port and looked at the stats. Attached is a screenshot.
It looks like the main battery has 101 amp-hours at 115.6 volts. 101x115.6=11.67 kilowatt-hours.
And the powerpack battery has 18 AH at 115.6v, giving 2.08 kwh.
Both combined = 13.75 kwh.
Am I interpreting everything correctly?
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BTW, my 2018 with PT usually shows a range of 180 miles when I start up in the morning. After riding 38 miles at 2/3 city speeds and 1/3 freeway speeds it still shows around 100 miles of range left at 70% SOC. And no "magic charging" either. But do I actually believe that range? Not really. ???
"Range" assumes conditions will NOT change at all. If you want to get better range indicated, start out going downhill in the same direction as the wind. If you want to see worse range indicated, ride in the opposite direction.
IMO,"range" is rather useless. Perhaps the best way to figure out range is how many miles you get per SOC. If you get 1 mile per SOC that is 100 miles of range. If you get two miles per SOC that is 200 miles of range. IOW, multiply SOC by the mile range you get per SOC. It will be a much better average.
The problem with range is that it assumes you will not go back the same way with the opposite conditions. IMO, it is best to never look at range unless you're on level ground with no wind the entire trip and will have the exact same conditions on the return trip.
-Don- Wasco, CA
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BTW, my 2018 with PT usually shows a range of 180 miles when I start up in the morning. After riding 38 miles at 2/3 city speeds and 1/3 freeway speeds it still shows around 100 miles of range left at 70% SOC. And no "magic charging" either. But do I actually believe that range? Not really. ???
"Range" assumes conditions will NOT change at all. If you want to get better range indicated, start out going downhill in the same direction as the wind. If you want to see worse range indicated, ride in the opposite direction.
IMO,"range" is rather useless. Perhaps the best way to figure out range is how many miles you get per SOC. If you get 1 mile per SOC that is 100 miles of range. If you get two miles per SOC that is 200 miles of range. IOW, multiply SOC by the mile range you get per SOC. It will be a much better average.
The problem with range is that it assumes you will not go back the same way with the opposite conditions. IMO, it is best to never look at range unless you're on level ground with no wind the entire trip and will have the exact same conditions on the return trip.
-Don- Wasco, CA
If your range is varying based on conditions (a certainty) then so will your efficiency (your miles per SoC percentage, or more commonly miles per kW/h). All you're doing is swapping one metric for another and using a different calculation. And range is meaningful even if you are coming back the same way you left because things even out. If you're going uphill on the way out and use more energy you'll be coming downhill on the way back and save energy. If the wind happens to be blowing in the same direction all day then the same thing happens (and the wind doesn't care about what route you take).
What you do need to take into consideration with range estimates is it's never definite because it can be affected by many different things. Speed, rate of acceleration, temperature, aerodynamic efficiency, rolling resistance, elevation changes, all these things can vary and some of them we can control and others we can't. In the worst case I can probably get less than 40 miles from my 7.2 DS, in ideal conditions closer to 80, but if I'm sensible and take some care I can manage around 60 miles comfortably so I consider that to be my range.
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If your range is varying based on conditions (a certainty) then so will your efficiency (your miles per SoC percentage, or more commonly miles per kW/h).
But nothing near the same way. The miles for the range is recalculated for every ten miles on an Energica. The SOC just shows the SOC and is a MUCH better average than range. Not perfect, but MUCH better than "range".
IOW, if you go all downhill and it has been for more than ten miles, your range will first show perhaps 150 miles. Now go back up uphill the reverse direction it will show your range left will perhaps be 15 miles after you ride ten miles. SOC% would be more like 45% used one way and 55% used the other, Much closer than the range in miles. But not perfect.
I notice my Tesla doesn't work that way. It's the LR model and the miles left is almost always three times the SOC. IOW, if my SOC shows 50% on my Tesla, it will say my range is very close to 150 miles no matter where I have been driving. IMO, this is also the way Energica should do it, use the SOC to figure out range. It will be MUCH better average than the useless way Enegica does it by recalculations every ten miles.
-Don- Wasco, CA
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If your range is varying based on conditions (a certainty) then so will your efficiency (your miles per SoC percentage, or more commonly miles per kW/h).
But nothing near the same way. The miles for the range is recalculated for every ten miles on an Energica. The SOC just shows the SOC and is a MUCH better average than range. Not perfect, but MUCH better than "range".
-Don- Wasco, CA
Well yeah I agree that if you're going on a ride and want to know when to turn back I would say go by the SoC and start heading home before you get to 50%. However if you want to know how far you'll be able to go then the SoC alone isn't going to be much help, unless you're also tracking your miles and can do the calculation as you go (and you're riding consistently, which would also apply to trusting the range estimate). But being able to simply go "I've got 40% left so that means at 1.2 miles per SOC I'll be able to go another 48 miles", that doesn't work because you're not always going to get 1.2 miles per. Until these bikes start accurately and frequently monitoring energy usage and doing the calculations for us (like some cars seem to do, consumption per mile seems to be shown on the dash in a lot of the video reviews I watch) I wouldn't trust anything from it. Just figure out your best and worst range and stick to an average in between that you can manage.
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[ Just figure out your best and worst range and stick to an average in between that you can manage.
Yep, my 2022 Chevy Bolt does that. Gives three different ranges. The average, the best possible and the worse possible. It also shows how many KWs are being used or gained in current time. Energicas also show KWs used / gained in current time, but it's down a screen and the numbers are small. I wish it were larger as IMO, that is good info. to figure out range. Can instantly see if you're using less or more than normal.
-Don- Salton Sea SRA, CA (RV trip)
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Get a device like a Kill-A-Watt that measures the total power input into the battery. Charge the bike to 100%, ride down to around 20-30% SOC, note SOC, note mileage traveled, charge back to 100%. Then do the math to determine battery capacity. I do this every time I recharge my 2017 FXS 6.5 modular just to be sure both batteries are still working.
I think there is a better way to get the battery capacity: charge the bike to 100%, then ride down to a very low SOC: some few %, or even 0%, or even ride until the bike stops (I did it recently (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=11638.msg110036#msg110036)). If you extract the BMS logs, then decode them (https://zero-motorcycle-community.github.io/browser-parse/), you will get the capacity (in mAh) delivered by the battery since the last 100% charge. I have a 2016 FXS 6.5 with 2 batteries. This method gives the capacity delivered by each battery. And from the beginning, I have a battery pack that delivers 25 Ah and another that delivers 24 Ah.
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I think there is a better way to get the battery capacity: charge the bike to 100%, then ride down to a very low SOC: some few %, or even 0%, or even ride until the bike stops (I did it recently (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=11638.msg110036#msg110036)). If you extract the BMS logs, then decode them (https://zero-motorcycle-community.github.io/browser-parse/), you will get the capacity (in mAh) delivered by the battery since the last 100% charge. I have a 2016 FXS 6.5 with 2 batteries. This method gives the capacity delivered by each battery. And from the beginning, I have a battery pack that delivers 25 Ah and another that delivers 24 Ah.
Every day can have a different range on the exact same trip. Wind, temperature, speed difference of a few MPH and more can change your range.
IMO, it is very difficult to give an accurate range on an electric motorcycle no matter how it is done.
I would just go by the useable KWH capacity of the battery and figure out the rest for myself, based on weight and such.
-Don- Salton Sea SRA, CA (RV trip with my Zero DS)