ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Moto7575 on August 30, 2022, 01:08:56 AM
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https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-808-how-to-prolong-lithium-based-batteries
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To save the people who aren't as technically minded, this is all stuff we already knew. For best practices, try to keep your battery above 20% and below 80% SoC for any extended periods of time. It's ok to charge to full and bring it down to empty, but try to burn it down below 80 or charge it back above 20 as soon as possible. Don't store it full or empty in a hot environment, as this accelerates degradation. This is no surprise because the batteries are all chemical reactions, and heat makes things react more 'cause it's all excited and whatnot.
You should also know that the cells in Zero's bikes are already soft-capped, voltage-wise. They mention in the article as 4.2vdc being the 100% value. Zero's cap is 4.157vdc, so automatically they are increasing the longevity of the cell with those parameters.
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I just want to know if it will hurt anything if I ride it daily and when finished plug it in and leave it till am. which means it would still be plugged for 6-8 hours after it's fully charged.
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I just want to know if it will hurt anything if I ride it daily and when finished plug it in and leave it till am. which means it would still be plugged for 6-8 hours after it's fully charged.
You will almost certainly see a longer life out of your battery if you set the charge target to like 80%. If you need the full 100% for your commute you could then tell it to top up as soon as you wake up then do your morning routine as it finishes.
However that's just a pain in the ass in practice and will quickly make you more likely to resent your bike. So while I'd say you're not actively hurting it, you could probably get more than what Zero advertises if you cap it at 80%.
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I just want to know if it will hurt anything if I ride it daily and when finished plug it in and leave it till am. which means it would still be plugged for 6-8 hours after it's fully charged.
I installed a 2”x4” electrical J-box in-line on a charge cord.
I put a 0-6hr spring wound timer in the box & figured 10% SOC/hr or charging.
This worked pretty well but I improved it by installing a slightly oversized plastic/water resistant electrical box & crammed in a 0-4hr spring wound timer as well as a (pre-selected 3hr electric timer.
Via a DPDT toggle switch I can configure for 0-4hr, 0-7hr, or continuous charge.
I also fabricated a short cord leaving this project box & installed a right angled plug that is inserted into the bikes charge port so I never have to unplug it, just the male plug into the wall socket.
I limit my SOC to 70% for my daily commute.
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Not really : the curve on ideal state of charge tells that 75-65 is optimal, informations are structured and fact based. To be fair one analysis is missing : what is the best charging cycle per kilometer - taking twice the number of cycles to age if you do half the number of kilometers per cycle is not really interesting !
To save the people who aren't as technically minded, this is all stuff we already knew. For best practices, try to keep your battery above 20% and below 80% SoC for any extended periods of time. It's ok to charge to full and bring it down to empty, but try to burn it down below 80 or charge it back above 20 as soon as possible. Don't store it full or empty in a hot environment, as this accelerates degradation. This is no surprise because the batteries are all chemical reactions, and heat makes things react more 'cause it's all excited and whatnot.
You should also know that the cells in Zero's bikes are already soft-capped, voltage-wise. They mention in the article as 4.2vdc being the 100% value. Zero's cap is 4.157vdc, so automatically they are increasing the longevity of the cell with those parameters.
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You will almost certainly see a longer life out of your battery if you set the charge target to like 80%. .
How are the cells ever going to balance?
And why does Energica say right on the screen to let it finish charging when you're at ~80% SOC?
-Don- Reno, NV
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How are the cells ever going to balance?
Do a balance charge every other month or so.
And why does Energica say right on the screen to let it finish charging when you're at ~80% SOC?
Clearly you haven't read it. It's pure Google Translate Italian. I can't remember the exact wording off the top of my head but it's something like, "In order to enable balance sequence it is suggested to do not disconnect..."
How it *should* read is more along the lines of, "If you would like the batteries to balance, we suggest you do not disconnect..."
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Do zero balance if you keep it connected at 80% ?
Also what is you view on the optimal cycle (60-75 for small commuter as myself seem better than 20-80)?
How are the cells ever going to balance?
Do a balance charge every other month or so.
And why does Energica say right on the screen to let it finish charging when you're at ~80% SOC?
Clearly you haven't read it. It's pure Google Translate Italian. I can't remember the exact wording off the top of my head but it's something like, "In order to enable balance sequence it is suggested to do not disconnect..."
How it *should* read is more along the lines of, "If you would like the batteries to balance, we suggest you do not disconnect..."
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Last I checked Zero bikes entered a balance sequence above 110vdc aka ~80%.
As far as your second question, the closer you can keep the pack overall to about 50% the happier it will be. If you can keep it almost always between 40-60% then oh my god it will last exponentially longer than someone who is delving significantly deeper into the pack.
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Thanks a lot ! Do you have a study supporting this and comparing many charge cycle options ? I would like to know what i save to see if it is woth doing it !
Last I checked Zero bikes entered a balance sequence above 110vdc aka ~80%.
As far as your second question, the closer you can keep the pack overall to about 50% the happier it will be. If you can keep it almost always between 40-60% then oh my god it will last exponentially longer than someone who is delving significantly deeper into the pack.
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If you have an FXS 70-80% is not going to get you very far, that's only about 40 miles vs 60 at 100%
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Thanks a lot ! Do you have a study supporting this and comparing many charge cycle options ? I would like to know what i save to see if it is woth doing it !
Cycle count is irrelevant if it's lacking information on how big/long the cycle is. It depends on the exact battery chemistry, and how long you store the battery at each extreme.
Loose rule of thumb is that with 0-100% charge cycles (no pauses) you'll be lucky to get 100 cycles out of the battery. 20-80% you should get up to 1000 cycles. 40-60% maybe 5000 cycles.
If you discharge new battery to 0%, and store over winter, you will likely not be able to charge it again. So, the battery can be dead at zero cycles.
Time/age is also a big factor. Even under best conditions a 10 year old battery is an old battery with limited lifetime left.
The reason for this is that at 0% (and 100%) the chemicals inside the cells reacts and self destructs fast. The aim is to keep the battery at state of charge where that damage is low/slow. 20-80% is a good example of mostly safe state of charge. It is worth noting that the voltage at 0% and 100% charge is chosen by manufacturers because at that point the rate of damage starts to rise rapidly and the chemistry becomes unstable. i.e. risk of battery fire.
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If you have an FXS 70-80% is not going to get you very far, that's only about 40 miles vs 60 at 100%
And that's the primary reason I never even considered an FX-series bike. I would've stayed with the "S" until Zero inexplicably decided the US would only get that model with the 7.2kWh battery DESPITE still selling the 14.4kWh version in Europe...
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Thanks a lot ! Do you have a study supporting this and comparing many charge cycle options ? I would like to know what i save to see if it is woth doing it !
I mean... you can literally cite tables 2 and 4 from the original study you linked for confirmation. Just apply the data to a Zero pouch and extrapolate that into pack values. For example, in Table 4, take any of the cell voltage values and multiply them by 28, because Zero packs are in a 28S configuration.
4.2 x 28 = 117.6 <-- this is beyond Zero's allowed voltage. They soft cap their cells at 4.157vdc
4.15 x 28 = 116.2 <-- basically 98% on a Zero
...
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3.9 x 28 = 109.2 <-- ~79% on a Zero
3.65 x 28 = 102.2 <-- 50% on a Zero
...
...
all the way down to
3.39 x 28 = 94.92 <-- empty Zero
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How are the cells ever going to balance?
Do a balance charge every other month or so.
And why does Energica say right on the screen to let it finish charging when you're at ~80% SOC?
Clearly you haven't read it. It's pure Google Translate Italian. I can't remember the exact wording off the top of my head but it's something like, "In order to enable balance sequence it is suggested to do not disconnect..."
How it *should* read is more along the lines of, "If you would like the batteries to balance, we suggest you do not disconnect..."
It's more like "It is suggested to NOT disconnect until charge is completed". Next time I see it, I will write down the exact words. FWIW, I usually disconnect at around 90% SOC to make sure I can make it to Reno from Cisco Grove or vice versa. 80% will cause some range anxiety, but I would most likely make it, but I can ride faster with no worries at 90% SOC (11.7 KWH battery).
I assume my new Experica with the 22KWH battery can make the 99.0-mile hilly trip on a home charge as long as I don't go too fast.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Don't store it full or empty in a hot environment, as this accelerates degradation.
What is your source for accelerated degradation when empty?
From all I know, this is wrong.
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Loose rule of thumb is that with 0-100% charge cycles (no pauses) you'll be lucky to get 100 cycles out of the battery.
What is your source for this? This seems very wrong.
Also what is your source on "no pauses" having an influence?
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What is your source for accelerated degradation when empty?
From all I know, this is wrong.
This is what I was told explicitly by Luke Workman, a friend who is one of the brightest minds in the battery world today. He also was responsible for redesigning Zero's 2012 packs to not catch on fire. Now he and his equally brilliant wife, Erika, run a battery consulting and recycling business. https://www.electricgoddess.co/
I'm paraphrasing but Luke said something along the lines of, "one of the worst possible things you can do is leave a battery empty in a hot environment. It rapidly increases growth of dendrites and will cause irreparable damage."
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Loose rule of thumb is that with 0-100% charge cycles (no pauses) you'll be lucky to get 100 cycles out of the battery.
What is your source for this? This seems very wrong.
Also what is your source on "no pauses" having an influence?
Four years of studying electrical engineering at RIT.
What is your source? If you want to study batteries I can recommend Linden's Handbook of Batteries, by David Linden and Thomas Reddy.
Edit. Here is a link. https://www.amazon.com/Lindens-Handbook-Batteries-Fifth-Kirby-dp-1260115925/dp/1260115925/ref=dp_ob_title_bk
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@MVetter
That surprises me, cause both "Degradation Mechanisms in NMC-Based Lithium-Ion Batteries" figure 23 and "Aging of Lithium-Ion Batteries in Electric Vehicles" figure 28 show that a low SOC is beneficial for storing batteries.
I was not able to find any study that got different results.
@T.S. Zarathustra I was not able to find where it says anything about the rule of thumb of 100 cycles at 100% DOD in Lindens Handbook of Batteries.
Where is that rule of thumb described?
This would be a very low number of cycles for todays batteries.
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@MVetter
That surprises me, cause both "Degradation Mechanisms in NMC-Based Lithium-Ion Batteries" figure 23 and "Aging of Lithium-Ion Batteries in Electric Vehicles" figure 28 show that a low SOC is beneficial for storing batteries.
I was not able to find any study that got different results.
@T.S. Zarathustra I was not able to find where it says anything about the rule of thumb of 100 cycles at 100% DOD in Lindens Handbook of Batteries.
Where is that rule of thumb described?
This would be a very low number of cycles for todays batteries.
It took you less than 2 hours to read through all ~1400 pages. Wow, I'm impressed. Are you in the Matrix?
Why would you think that a specific rule of thumb was in a book. Rule of thumb, by definition, is not in books.
I said that exact number depends on the exact chemistry, and that this is a good book if you want to learn about batteries.
Since you have the book you can read (starting on page 51 in my copy) all the details about "Mass transport to the electrode surface" (formation of dendrites) and Fick’s second law of diffusion.
I'm not familiar with the "DOD" acronym. Do you mean State Of Discharge?
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DOD is depth of discharge.
I just want to point out that 100 cycles at 100% DOD is very very far from any cell that is used in any EV. This is less cycle life than even the most extreme high-power cells provide.
I want to stop the spread of misinformation.
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I never said low SoC. I said “empty in a hot environment.”
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Empty = low SOC.
"Aging of Lithium-Ion Batteries in Electric Vehicles" figure 28 clearly shows the lower the SOC, the better for storage, both in hot and cold conditions.
Ideal storage SOC at high temperature would be empty.
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"the effect of storage is more pronounced not only with high storage temperatures and long storage periods," Page 73. Linden's Handbook of Batteries, by David Linden and Thomas Reddy.
I want to stop the spread of misinformation.
Edit. Here is information from a Samsung SDI datasheet for one of their Lithium Ion batteries, INR18650-25R.
"Storage temperature
(Recovery 90% after storage)
1.5 year -30~25?(1*)
3 months -30~45?(1*)
1 month -30~60?(1*)"
"Note (1): If the cell is kept as ex-factory status (50±5% SOC, 25?),"
To translate.
The manufacturer delivers the batteries with 50% charge, plus or minus 5%.
If batteries are kept between -30° to 25° Celsius they can be stored for up to 1,5 years.
If batteries are kept between -30° to 60° Celsius they can be stored for up to 1 month.
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Almost all batteries are delivered at roughly 50% SOC. This is to make it possible for them to be stored without paying attention to their self-discharge, while staying below the central graphite peak (around 55% SOC) above which the aging effect is significantly higher.
As I already stated with sources, an empty battery is still the best for storage.
The quote that you took from the book has nothing to do with the topic. You intentionally cut it short, since it continues "the effect of storage is more pronounced not only with high storage temperatures and long storage periods, but also under more severe conditions of discharge following storage". It then continues to talk about the influence of the discharge load after storage, which is completely unrelated to my original point about low SOC.
This quote only mentiones high temps and long storage as bad influence. That's not a surprise to anyone I think.
So yea.. I don't really know what you are trying to express here.
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Did someone say there is a 14.4 FXS version in Europe?
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No, there isn't.
So far all literature I've come across has stated that LiPo batteries should be stored at effectively just under "50% SOC"*. Storage under effective 0% SOC appears to risk eventual short from metal dendrites and potential explosion. The warmer things are the faster dendrites can form. Does anybody disagree with this?
Cas :)
* Where "50% SOC" is where the manufacturer finds the median voltage between what they decide is maximum and minimum safe ranges which as MVetter has stated before is 3.65V per cell on a Zero.
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As I already stated with sources, an empty battery is still the best for storage.
Empty = low SOC.
"Aging of Lithium-Ion Batteries in Electric Vehicles" figure 28 clearly shows the lower the SOC, the better for storage, both in hot and cold conditions.
Ideal storage SOC at high temperature would be empty.
I cannot find the source you mention. Who is author of "Aging of Lithium-Ion Batteries in Electric Vehicles"? The closest Google finds is a five page document that has no figure 28.
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It's a PhD dissertation from "Peter Keil". I really like it, good information in there:)
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It's a PhD dissertation from "Peter Keil". I really like it, good information in there:)
Is this what you are refering to?
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282252570_Aging_of_Lithium-Ion_Batteries_in_Electric_Vehicles_Impact_of_Regenerative_Braking
It is from 2015 and has a co author. He seems in the consulting business now.
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Hello,
No, as I said it's a PhD dissertation.
http://mediatum.ub.tum.de/doc/1355829/document.pdf
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A quite important parameter is missing from that study.
"studies were performed with the same type of lithium-ion cell"
Which type of lithium-ion cell?
Some of the most common are:
Lithium Cobalt Oxide. ...
Lithium Manganese Oxide. ...
Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) ...
Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide (NMC) ...
Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum Oxide. ...
Lithium Titanate.
They each have different characteristics. Some, like LFP (which is mentioned in the study), are not as sensitive to low or high state of charge as others. LFP also have higher number of charge/discharge cycles than most, while holding similar amount of capacity. LFP have low energy density, and are therefore rarely used in electric vehicles, so are not really relevant to "how to best charge your Zero battery". They are ideal for some other uses.
Cycle count is irrelevant if it's lacking information on how big/long the cycle is. It depends on the exact battery chemistry, and how long you store the battery at each extreme.
Your link contains these statements:
"High battery temperatures increase calendar aging by accelerating parasitic side-reactions. Thus, the battery temperature should be kept low during the long nonoperating periods. " Page 144. So not "the better for storage, both in hot and cold conditions".
"Keeping the SoC at a low or medium level and lowering the battery temperature minimizes calendar aging." Page 141. So not "the lower the SOC, the better for storage".
Empty = low SOC.
"Aging of Lithium-Ion Batteries in Electric Vehicles" figure 28 clearly shows the lower the SOC, the better for storage, both in hot and cold conditions.
Ideal storage SOC at high temperature would be empty.
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The paper talks about NMC, the most popular EV chemistry, that zero also uses.
The two statements I have already covered and correctly quoted, and there's diagrams showing exactly what I mentioned. Go back to one of my previous post to find the corresponding figures.
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Thanks a lot ! Do you have a study supporting this and comparing many charge cycle options ? I would like to know what i save to see if it is woth doing it !
I mean... you can literally cite tables 2 and 4 from the original study you linked for confirmation. Just apply the data to a Zero pouch and extrapolate that into pack values. For example, in Table 4, take any of the cell voltage values and multiply them by 28, because Zero packs are in a 28S configuration.
4.2 x 28 = 117.6 <-- this is beyond Zero's allowed voltage. They soft cap their cells at 4.157vdc
4.15 x 28 = 116.2 <-- basically 98% on a Zero
...
...
3.9 x 28 = 109.2 <-- ~79% on a Zero
3.65 x 28 = 102.2 <-- 50% on a Zero
...
...
all the way down to
3.39 x 28 = 94.92 <-- empty Zero
I own a 2022 Zero S (picked up in Jun 2022 with 30 miles and now I have 2700 miles) and there is no automatic method to charge to only 80% like there appears to be on SR models and above. I have flow model helicopters for 16 years and am pretty familiar with Lipos they use. My model batteries live a hard life (4.5-5ah 6-12s setups) and last 3-5 years which is much higher than most in the hobby, very often they are asked to deliver 150+ amps during spikes and average 45-65amps over a 3-8 minute flight. I charge up to 4.15v per cell (95% in this case) and run them to about 3.77v per cell (30% in this case) between the speed controller info (amps/volts) we can calculate ah consumption then compare it to when we charge. This method has worked well for me for 10+ years now. I have been researching the internet to find more information on NMC batteries. I am happy to see that Zero cuts off @ 95% charge state. When this example above states "all the way down to 3.39 x 28 = 94.92 <-- empty Zero" What is 3.39v per cell? Is that 20%, 30%, 40% remaining of the battery? I haven't found any good voltage charts to show. I completely understand voltage isn't an exact method, but if you let the battery sit and stabilize it's a decent indicator.
My overall concern is when/if I run my battery down and I only get 30 miles can I purchase a new one from Zero? Do they offer anything like this, my research says no. Many thanks to all the folks that have taken the time to provide information here and via youtube videos, super helpful.
If I ride my Zero S "7.2" like a motorcycle for fun I get 40-45 miles (I'm 250lbs this is in 60-degree weather) If I really, really, really try to be as efficient as possible and not get run over doing 35mph roads doing the speed limit I can get 70-80 miles. Mixed (60mph max) and 35mph roads pretty equally split I can get 55 miles. I've reached out to Zero with these questions but don't get any answers. I bought my bike with 7 charge cycles and I currently have 92. I am in Missouri outside of St. Louis so chargers can be challenging to find along any route. I am a techy nerd so I am always tracking ride data and so far I see no indication of degration but perhaps I don't know where to look. I do have logs I pull monthly so I can track any differences.
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My overall concern is when/if I run my battery down and I only get 30 miles can I purchase a new one from Zero? Do they offer anything like this, my research says no.
You can purchase a replacement battery, but it's unlikely to be a good economic choice as the replacement battery would likely cost as much or more than the entire bike is worth at that point. It's also not designed to be a user serviceable item, so you'd need some significant effort or dealer support to do the install.