ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: princec on July 01, 2022, 07:49:34 PM
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Alas, it has now happened to me, big-time :(
Torrential rain yesterday. Bike suddenly started throwing error codes at me - "Battery Ineligible" and "Isolation Fault" etc. and the CEL illuminated. I nursed it home, where it subsequently refused to charge or power on ("Isolation Fault").
This is a major blow for me - it's my main transport. I'm hoping that if I leave it to dry out it'll recover in a day or two. I've had this problem before when I washed the bike (gently!) which is why it hardly ever gets washed any more, but this is much more serious - it could have happened to me in the middle of nowhere, or worse, on the way to work, costing me a fortune in lost earnings (I'm self employed - if I don't turn up I don't get paid).
Trouble is I'm afeared of sending it to Davant Bikes to get it "looked at" because doubtless there is no actual fix for this issue, and I worry that I'll experience the same bullshit everyone seems to be experiencing, namely their bikes being gone for months, nothing being fixed, and if lucky getting them back with the same problem returning as soon as it rains again.
Does anyone know where the actual problem might lie under the bodywork and what I could do to mitigate it?
Cas :)
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Concerned to hear this, no vehicle should be disabled by rain, no matter how much is falling. I wish I had a suggestion for you, beyond a giant bowl of rice to submerge it in (sorry, too soon).
If it is cost effective you might rent a car for a few days of drying. Are you aware of the TURO app? It's like Air BNB, but for cars. People rent their cars for a very good price, and many will bring it to you. Good way to check out a Tesla.
Good luck!!
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Could you use a hair dryer, or something similar, to dry out the interior components of your bike?
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I saw this come up quite a bit early on, it seemed the common component that was replaced was the spider bus, its just the mess of power wires on the back of the battery. I'm guessing they didn't waterproof the connections well and with the new spider bus they did, but that would be an area I'd look at and inspect. Maybe even some silicon would help if you found an area that was easily exposed to water.
I love my FX, and I really wanted to jump to the SR/F when it came out but thought I would wait and I'm glad I did. I've been waiting for Zero to address the crappy dealer experience everyone complains about, and the flaws like this and the magic charging on this platform. But here we are, years after its been a well known issue and Zero hasn't done anything about it. It sucks for the people who already have this great bike and these simple problems have not been solved.
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BMW would have issued a recall and had it fixed by now.
Cas :)
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BMW would have issued a recall and had it fixed by now.
Cas :)
And if the recall was caused by a supplier's component, they would be sticking it to the supplier, big time. ;)
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I had a similar thing a few months back. Luckily it happened when I was on the way for my service at Spark Motos, and after I had arrived!
Bike was totally unresponsive and dead. Ivan at Spark sorted it out quite quickly (well in a few days anyway) as he's seen this a few times.
It was water getting into the motor controller which sits under the chargers in the tank. He took it apart and totally resealed that area with a sealing compound.
Now my SRF is a beast in the wet, I ride in all weathers and leave it out in the rain whilst I'm working and not had a problem since.
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Do you have a picture that shows where the problem occurs??
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I had a similar thing a few months back. Luckily it happened when I was on the way for my service at Spark Motos, and after I had arrived!
Bike was totally unresponsive and dead. Ivan at Spark sorted it out quite quickly (well in a few days anyway) as he's seen this a few times.
It was water getting into the motor controller which sits under the chargers in the tank. He took it apart and totally resealed that area with a sealing compound.
Now my SRF is a beast in the wet, I ride in all weathers and leave it out in the rain whilst I'm working and not had a problem since.
If you can get any more detail on this it'd be greatly appreciated; I suspect my dealers are going to be feeling their way in the dark here and I want them to come up with a pragmatic solution. Ie. not one that involves having my bike for 3 months waiting for Zero to ship them an entire replacement electronics suite that then simply breaks the next time it gets wet again.
Cas :)
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... It was water getting into the motor controller which sits under the chargers in the tank. He took it apart and totally resealed that area with a sealing compound ...
Now just over 42'000 km, this year I've experienced twice what princec described. Letting it dry for a moment (< 1 hour if in the sun and with using an hair blower) was enough to get me moving again. Since I didn't have this type of problem before, I think it is an "aging" problem.
Thank you jonblow for the precious feedback, my bike is due to be checked for water ingress in two days at the dealership, I will make sure to let them know what you wrote here.
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Do you have a picture that shows where the problem occurs??
No, sorry I don't but I believe the water gets in at the bottom of the bike as it's sprayed up by the front wheel. That whole area is an achilles heel that needs waterproofing properly. As I said Ivan seems to have done a good job sealing that area now.
The other area is under the seat where the 12v battery is. be very careful when washing the bike not to spray any water around that area. I did that a few years back and the bike was back at the dealers for about a month afterwards whilst they fixed it (new battery, new wiring and a new LCD screen!)
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Thanks jonblow - I'll be talking to the dealers in a couple of weeks.
Bike's now dried out and working properly again btw. Daren't wash it though because I use it every day :(
Cas :)
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I'm going to resurrect this thread rather than start a new one.
For two years, my SRS had no problem in rain. And I rode in rain... A LOT. Probably as much or more than any one else, because of where I live. Recently, and shortly after warranty expired, after a heavy rain it had the Isolation Fault until it dried out, and I couldn't charge the battery. Then it happened again in very light rain. As a simple exploration as to what could be done, I stuffed grocery bags around the chargers power connections and particularly at the front behind the plastic cover that has the horn facing out of it, in case water thrown by the front wheel was going in where the chargers are, or perhaps down into where the BMS board is. This did not help so I took them back out. Last week it happened again and I was left at work with just barely enough to get home, and unable to charge there due to the pack being ineligible due to the faults. I had to ride all the way home at 40mph in heavy rain on a high speed highway to get back, ducking off into the emergency lane when cars went by to try to be safer. At home I aimed an electric leaf blower into the front of the bike where the horn is, and let it run for 30 minutes. Then I could clear the faults and charge. The way the faults manifested was I could clear them, and they might come back, but sometimes they didn't. Then when I tried to charge, after about two seconds of charging the fault would re-occur. Also curiously if I turned on the right blinker it worked fine, but the left blinker would set a code that a light was out or something, even though it worked fine. The light housing were dry inside and I also blew out the handlebar control with compressed air but it didnt help. I also made sure the fuses and wiring around the 12v battery were dry, and disconnected my accessories in case they were in issue. None of that was the problem.
So I'm thinking... what changed? What degraded? Looking at the exploded diagram of the battery pack I see there is a potential entry point where the cabling goes in to the BMS at the top front of the pack. At the back of the pack, there is a cable assy that enters the pack from the top too, I suppose connecting to the chargers as it goes out the top, and that brings charger power into the pack and out to the motor controller at the bottom of the bike. The part number for this cabling assy is 12-08163 "Power Bus Hardware Service Assembly".
Now... where it goes in from the top it passes through an aperture with foam as a seal, in the manner of weather-stripping. Foam degrades. Except for the drying potentially of some waterproofing grease that may or may not have been applied when the bike was assembled, nothing has changed or could have changed. But foam definitely degrades over time.
My theory is the water is entering from the top, at the back. The front I already tried stuffing that full of bags and it didn't work. I even set the code with a gentle rinse with a hose while washing the bike and didnt squirt water in that area at all.
If you have any ideas or input feel free to chime in. What Im going to do to test this is stuff as many plastic grocery bags as possible into this area at the back where the charger wires go down, so no water spray can get in there, and see what happens. If that works, I will probably follow up with a heavy application of silicon sealer all over the top seam of the battery at the rear.
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My sr/s did this once, very similar to the first description in this thread, about 6 months ago. Dealer told me a recall was imminent so I waited. But heard nothing.
In the mean time I noticed when washing the bike the charge socket would fill with water and a drain hole in the side of the socket seems to aim at unsealed wires below (might be a type 2 socket thing?). Added a rubber plug on the charge socket from the end of my charge cable and a piece of hose from the drain hole out to part of the frame. I've ridden in some pretty bad rain a couple of times since and never even had an error. I wasn't sure there wasn't something in the firmware updates which had stopped it though.
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I had the same concern.
https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=12150.0
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Finally got the time and wherewithall to post a conclusion!
Now listen up, coz it's good!
Firstly for the short-of-attention span - tl;dr it's all fixed.
So what happened?
So I got the bike back again in July, apparently fixed, and it immediately conked out in the rain again. Nursed it home once more, and it refused to charge or even switch on again for a few days. Once I got a charge into it and dried it out, I took it down to Davant Bikes in Torquay, where I bought it from. They proceeded to have another good long look at it. And this is what happened:
Apparently the fans on the pre-2022 bikes have no insulation on them. Known fault, it would seem, as they've since fixed it, but for some reason Zero have not issued a recall, preferring instead to fix them as and when they break down (strange decision but there we go). Unfortunately the fans are in Amsterdam or something, and not so easy to get sorted. Fortunately Zero's UK Head of Marketing was down, and in a totally awesome and unexpected move, offered to not only take my fans to Amsterdam to have them fixed/replaced with the new parts personally, but he also gave me the Zero UK Demonstrator SR/F to use while the bike was off the road!
The fan repair took several weeks - fine, I enjoyed the good weather on the demo SR/F, although because it wasn't the Premium model it only had 3kW charging so I didn't go on holiday on it as planned which was a bit rubbish. Also it didn't have heated grips, and all the ergo tweaks I made to mine, so it was a bit more painful on longer trips anyway :)
The summer came and went and the fans were finally installed. But then Davant said they'd tried hosing the bike down to see if they'd fixed it and ... it promptly threw a load of codes and shat itself again. So they poked and prodded and then finally must have, I dunno, done a bit of Googling and realised that the dreaded spider bus - yes you know the one - was actually to blame. So they had to order that bit, and that was a few more weeks, but that's ok, I've got their bike in the mean time and still enjoying going to work on it though it was definitely getting to "need heated grips" weather.
Finally the spider bus came and they fitted it, and hurray, for it no longer threw a wobbly when they soaked it. And for good measure, they noticed by dash had mist in it, so they replaced that under warranty too, with a posh newer one that is way fancier looking than the old dash (apparently costs over £900 for replacement, the old dash was more like £700).
All this was done under warranty without quibbles.
So I got my bike back finally and it's as good as ever, except now it doesn't break down when it gets wet :)
This story is really a counterpoint to all those crappy stories about Zero customer service, dodgy dealers, unreliability, etc. that always get posted in forums. Davant Bikes have been absolutely great (thanks a lot Jonathan, if you ever read this), and Zero UK went above and beyond sorting it out, which is a very wise move on their part because it means that Zero is still right at the top of the list of Next Bike I Might Buy. (I think it was Marcus but I lost his card). I would honestly have been happy with any old crapper as a loaner in the meantime but getting an SR/F was really neat. I don't know if everyone would get this level of service from Davant or Zero but this sort of thing is why we keep coming back to the same dealers and same brands. You feel properly looked after, you know?
Shame the weather's been atrocious ever since... bah
Cas :)
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That is a nice outcome, but Zero is not going to make a profit selling bikes if they have to fix issues like that. And very few shops (none that I know of) would loan a customer a bike to ride for more than overnight, much less for months while a customer's bike was being repaired, as they did for you. Zero really needs to up their game when it comes to designing and manufacturing their motorcycles to make them more reliable when ridden by their customers in all normal weather conditions.
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Apparently the fans on the pre-2022 bikes have no insulation on them. Known fault, it would seem, as they've since fixed it, but for some reason Zero have not issued a recall, preferring instead to fix them as and when they break down (strange decision but there we go).
Thank you for the report and the positive outcome. In forums one mostly learns about all the things that went wrong :).
I also recently got both chargers (have the Premium) replaced, and also because of water ingress resulting in freezing the bike. The problem surfaced and was diagnosticated in the spring. That was just past the guaranty but my Zero dealer said that this would be covered nonetheless, that's nice of them. With the very dry summer we had over here in Europe, I could wait until October to have them replaced. Now I noticed the fans of the new chargers make a different noise, a more pleasant one, like if they would operate on a wider range of RPM. I wonder if you noticed such differences as well.
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Can't say I really noticed the fans being too different but after 3 months with a 3kW non-premium I forgot what they used to sound like before anyway...
Cas :)
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And for good measure, they noticed by dash had mist in it, so they replaced that under warranty too, with a posh newer one that is way fancier looking than the old dash (apparently costs over £900 for replacement, the old dash was more like £700).
The new dash layout is a software update at the dealer btw, no difference in the hardware. Your new cluster just came with the latest version on it (or they updated it after installing)
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No, I already had the new dash software. Now I've got the new dash hardware, and it is absolutely hugely, hugely posher looking.
Cas :)
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Can you post a picture (my dash will also be changed)
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Yeah gonna need a picture, this is the first I've heard of this.
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+1 Post a picture of this new hardware, or it doesn't exist!
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Will try to get a pic if I remember tomorrow when it's light! I think it's the one in the new DSR/X. Much blacker, subtle matte finish, much less obvious distinction between screen and outer lighting cluster area.
Cas :)
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Like this then?
(https://mcn-images.bauersecure.com/wp-images/189993/1440x960/zero-dsr-x-06.jpg)
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Yep, exactly like that.
Cas :)
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Ohh so you got the DSR/X dash. Interesting.
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Hmm seems like they are using matte glass instead of plastic as top layer and also looks like everything is optically bonded. That means condensation is definitly a thing of the past!
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Well, no mist yet, and it's been out in the miserable damp and cold for a few weeks. Took the bike for a spin today because the roads were finally mostly dry :) bit nippy out though.
Cas :)
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My Zero will never see a drop of water again for as long as I own it. Less than a year after purchase, it was a hot summer day when I gave it it’s first wash and rinse with an ordinary garden hose. Then after hours in the hot sun, I pushed it into the garage at sundown. The next day the warning lights were flashing, but when the ready light would come on for a split second, it would go. So every time I stopped, I would have to wait for the ready light. Forum people said it would dry over time and be okay, but three weeks later something blew up, and nearly tossed me off the bike. Once again, this happened the day after I washed it. I took it to EGMS for repair, but they would not look at the bike until I COMPLETELY removed all the added accessories. I removed everything and took the bike in, then waited, and waited, and waited. Every week brought another call telling me that something else needed to be replaced. They had the bike for months. I sent a letter to Zero, asking if they were going to cover this water created failure. They told me that the electrical accessories I had added caused the problem, and they would not cover it at all. I installed the accessories weeks after I bought the bike, and it failed the day after I washed it. All the accessories were reinstalled as soon as I got it back, and the bike has been working fine for over a year now with all accessories installed. This failure was obviously caused by water intrusion, but Zero will not take responsibility. Just under $3500.00. It’s not fair. It’s not right. But what can I do? So many people ask me about my bike, and the first thing I tell them is “buyer beware”, and they should consider buying something other than a Zero. I’ve had many issues with this bike, this was just the worst.
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Out of curiosity, what were the accessories?
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A much louder horn. Amber lane splitting strobes. Strobe then solid brake light. LED headlight. Phone charger, part of the holder. Accessory outlet. I know this sounds like a lot of current, but it's under 10 amps even when laying on the horn. And all wiring is pro and in looms.
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They made you remove those accessories? That sounds absurd. That sounds like a card dealer telling you they won't service your car because you left your phone charger plugged in.
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I totally agree, and I tried to reason with them using ideas just like that, but they wouldn't budge. All the accessories terminate at a two pin bullet connector, so I unplugged it and took the bike in. That's when they laid the law down. In the end, I left the strobes and brake flasher mounted with the wires hanging, and passed the entrance exam. I'm happy to be at this point where I can enjoy the bike. But it's been a long, time consuming, and very expensive road to get here. And unfortunately it started the day after I bought the bike, with only 87 miles on the odometer. It's now my dream machine, but it will never see another drop of water for as long as I own it.
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In the meantime, the weather's been shit and it's too dark to ride home at night here now for weeks, and I've got covid, so jury's still out on whether all the waterproofing actually really worked or not :P
Cas :)
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Cas,
Any money out of your pocket to make this right? If so, can I ask how much?
Ed
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Not a bean. The only thing I did pay for - voluntarily - was when they were going to swap my front discs again, I said no let's put some decent ones on instead and got EBC replacements (which not only feel nicer, they look nicer, and a few thousand miles later, show no signs of warping at all, unlike the OEM ones which never got past 1000 miles both times)
I have to say the service has been pretty stellar.
Cas :)
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Hey Cas,
Not a bean, that's great. I'm talking with an attorney here. Checking my options. Take care with that covid. Ten days of misery times two here. Hope you feel better soon.
Ed
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I'm going to resurrect this thread rather than start a new one.
For two years, my SRS had no problem in rain. And I rode in rain... A LOT. Probably as much or more than any one else, because of where I live. Recently, and shortly after warranty expired, after a heavy rain it had the Isolation Fault until it dried out, and I couldn't charge the battery. Then it happened again in very light rain. As a simple exploration as to what could be done, I stuffed grocery bags around the chargers power connections and particularly at the front behind the plastic cover that has the horn facing out of it, in case water thrown by the front wheel was going in where the chargers are, or perhaps down into where the BMS board is. This did not help so I took them back out. Last week it happened again and I was left at work with just barely enough to get home, and unable to charge there due to the pack being ineligible due to the faults. I had to ride all the way home at 40mph in heavy rain on a high speed highway to get back, ducking off into the emergency lane when cars went by to try to be safer. At home I aimed an electric leaf blower into the front of the bike where the horn is, and let it run for 30 minutes. Then I could clear the faults and charge. The way the faults manifested was I could clear them, and they might come back, but sometimes they didn't. Then when I tried to charge, after about two seconds of charging the fault would re-occur. Also curiously if I turned on the right blinker it worked fine, but the left blinker would set a code that a light was out or something, even though it worked fine. The light housing were dry inside and I also blew out the handlebar control with compressed air but it didnt help. I also made sure the fuses and wiring around the 12v battery were dry, and disconnected my accessories in case they were in issue. None of that was the problem.
So I'm thinking... what changed? What degraded? Looking at the exploded diagram of the battery pack I see there is a potential entry point where the cabling goes in to the BMS at the top front of the pack. At the back of the pack, there is a cable assy that enters the pack from the top too, I suppose connecting to the chargers as it goes out the top, and that brings charger power into the pack and out to the motor controller at the bottom of the bike. The part number for this cabling assy is 12-08163 "Power Bus Hardware Service Assembly".
Now... where it goes in from the top it passes through an aperture with foam as a seal, in the manner of weather-stripping. Foam degrades. Except for the drying potentially of some waterproofing grease that may or may not have been applied when the bike was assembled, nothing has changed or could have changed. But foam definitely degrades over time.
My theory is the water is entering from the top, at the back. The front I already tried stuffing that full of bags and it didn't work. I even set the code with a gentle rinse with a hose while washing the bike and didnt squirt water in that area at all.
If you have any ideas or input feel free to chime in. What Im going to do to test this is stuff as many plastic grocery bags as possible into this area at the back where the charger wires go down, so no water spray can get in there, and see what happens. If that works, I will probably follow up with a heavy application of silicon sealer all over the top seam of the battery at the rear.
Hi, have you solved your insulation problem?
the same for me, I drove for 6 months in the rain, the mechanic had changed the high voltage bus bars.
and there it starts again, I'm thinking of dismantling the controller and the 2 bus bars, and changing the seals and O-rings but certainly not zero parts.
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The problem is ingress into the cooling fans, the electronics of which inside were protected with absolutely zero waterproofing - literally bare boards exposed to rainwater.
The replacement parts are apparently IP67 rated. Had no trouble since.
Cas :)
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I tried a few things to solve the ISO water issues before finding precisely that it was indeed water in the charger cooling ducts that caused it. I used an animal feeding syringe to apply water precisely to various parts of the bike over a month or so when it was completely dry and working, to be sure I had verified it. I had. Just 30ml of water in the port of either charger and BOOM, that's the fault. I made a hokey looking shroud of coroplast and door sealing foam and never had that problem again. I had so many faults after it was parked in rain on the side stand. The side that faces up, opposite the stand,is where water would drip in. If you don't mind how dumb this looks it works well. You could def form one with different materials and make it more stylish. It makes a a kind of tunnel for airflow but doesn't allow water to drip in.
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When I took the controller apart, I found the connector plug was not clipped.
the interior seal was bent, and traces of water in the bus bars.
I reassembled everything properly with good grease, checked all the joints.
I think my main insulation problem came from that.
but I will look into your solution of preventing water from reaching the chargers.
I'm thinking of first trying a black super honeycomb synthetic foam that I have at work.
it filters the air but does not impede circulation.
I also installed 2 "PYRAMID" brand sr/s mud flaps front and rear to limit water splashes.
(https://i35.servimg.com/u/f35/15/20/51/41/img_0017.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/15205141/551)
(https://i35.servimg.com/u/f35/15/20/51/41/img_0018.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/15205141/552)
thanks
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Hmmmmmm
From latest firmware update notice I received today
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Hi
thanks for the info.
https://zero-cms-disco.cdn.prismic.io/zero-cms-disco/8204c2dc-0852-4458-ba70-0a4ebddb0f5d_Release+Notes+2.7.24+Cypher+III+MY24+MBB+REV+36_+BMU+REV+14+and+BMS+REV+25+%282%29.pdf