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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: enaef on November 04, 2021, 10:18:52 PM
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Cypher III+ - What the heck ...
https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/cypherstore (https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/cypherstore)
So - it has come true, what I expected: I was asking myself, if the strange things with charging since FW 19 somehow have to do with the development of a new battery. Well, seems not completely what it is now, but a new development certainly.
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I'm glad to see that on-dash navigation is now available - but not that it's a chargeable extra. The manufacturer Facomsa (https://facomsa.com/discover-the-new-of-facomsas-connectivity/?lang=en) supports features like this and it was frustrating that Zero hadn't made this sort of leap. I'm also glad to see they're the first manufacturer to do this (as far as I'm aware) too. The similar dash on my Ducati Hypermotard could be capable of this too.
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I'm very happy about the new parkmode ...
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June 30th I wrote this:
[...]
It's quite a while I'm asking me what the reason could be for this worsening of SoC calculation.
I'm not a technician / engineer at all and it may be farfetched. However:
I have read several times, that customers would expect a battery upgrade of some sort, since it is some time since the last.
WHAT IF there is such a upgrade under way and Zero tries to adapt the FW in a way it will work for coming batteries and the ones in use at the moment (14.4 kWh)?
Pure speculation ....
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This all feels wrong. I wonder if their engineers are proud of this..
I sort of get the software / park assist, navigation, upgrades that you have to pay for..
But a range upgrade... That feels like saying; Hey you bought this hardware, but we do not let you use it unless you pay extra.
For the ZFORCE 14.4+ to have an range extension of 20%..... It feels as if their trick is to use their battery limiter. Maybe in some cases have the battery voltage to drop a bit lower before it says 0%. Or change the maximum torque.
Or the battery has simply more power than 14.4Kwh and they simply do not let you use it. Than it maybe is a way to sell a more expensive bike,,, for a lower price?
My first guest would say that they are playing with some software limits… We will probably know when the manual’s come out.
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So now Zero has microtransactions? Sigh.
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These are not things Tesla would charge for.
Cas :(
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Actually Tesla does have a charge to get a “parking mode” AND they do charge for “enhanced navigation” as well. There is a $10,000 package that is now the only way to get a parking assistant on their car and in order to get additional supercharger info as well as live traffic data, you have to pay $10/month. Tesla also has a $300 fee to enable the already existing heated rear seats in their standard models. BMW also has begun to support these as have other manufacturers.
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It would make sense to charge for it if they still cover waranty even after pushing the hardware over the "long life limit"...
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This all feels wrong. I wonder if their engineers are proud of this..
I've had narrow eyes at the connectivity of the SR/* bikes since they came out, and now I know Zero's headed in the wrong direction for me. *sigh* I'll love the cypher II innocence while it lasts. I want no part of software unlocks or internet connected motorcycles, to be honest.
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Tesla also has a $300 fee to enable the already existing heated rear seats in their standard models.
Unlocking software upgrades I understand (even though I don't like them), but I don't understand these kinds of updates. Tesla already had to pay for those heaters and not everyone will activate that feature. So that means one of two things:
- Tesla is losing money for every car that doesn't get activated
- Tesla already passed the charge along to all buyers, whether activated or not
I think we all know which one it is. That makes it all the more maddening that a Tesla buyer essentially already paid for it but doesn't get to use it.
If battery capacity is the same way on the new Zero's, that will make me look elsewhere. Now I'm rooting for the Japanese Four. I'll ride out my FXS until it dies then thoroughly look at the electric landscape on my next purchase.
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Consider also that by law of scales it is less expensive overall for Tesla to manufacture all seats with heaters and more importantly for them FASTER to do it as well. There are reasons that they decided to go the route they did and the same is true for Zero. Streamlining the production of the SRS and SRF along with the SR to have one battery, one control system, one charging architecture and two frames is a big deal for manufacturing. It’s also convenient that they can offer different price points vs offer all three of these bikes for a new $25k price tag.
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I stand corrected! I just noted that my friend's Model S got all sorts of cool updates over the years that didn't cost him anything. Maybe that was an early adopter thing though (he has lifetime free supercharging too etc).
Even so...
Suckage.
Cas :)
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All I can say is someone figured out how to bypass the Tesla "Range Upgrade" in-app purchase with a quick hack, so I can't wait to see the same thing happen to Zero.
App upgrades for software functionality like GPS, fine. But if I pay for the hardware already there and capable like heated grips and extended range then I'm going to use it, no additional cost to me.
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I can provide a bit more detail.
FW v19 has nothing to do with the announcement. There are no FW range reductions on existing bikes.
The 22MY is a new battery and premium bikes get a boost for the same price.
The SR is now based on the FST platform, and costs less. With the exception of charging, it can be upgraded to the performance of an SRF for roughly the price differential between the two models.
Zero has allowed owners to eat a bit into the buffer on the new battery at the cost of longevity on repeated use and charge for increased warranty cost(warranty is the same as before regardless of this feature)
There is a new charger, which operates on the same principle as the battery. Charge rate can be increased at the cost of slightly increased wear(no warranty change)
Older bikes can increase charging slightly due to performance testing and improvements, at the cost of slightly increased wear.
Other things like On Dash Nav and Parking mode require a dealer trip to update FW, but are available.
Now there are software differences between an SR, standard SRS and premium SRS. Zero probably saves money on sourcing and manufacturing,. Not in love with the concept, but I wonder if people would be as upset if they didn't offer the ability to upgrade but used the same hardware.
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Tesla trained me for this moment, and I feel a little better if I can believe that the extra range / charging speed is at the expense of the longevity of the battery and charger, so you are effectively paying for a warranty.
The step-by-step navigation will be something I will buy immediately, although obviously a map would be better (maybe a conscious design decision to make a less distracting display?).
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Auriga still no news on fixes for V19 issues? New pack is showing the same problems now….
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We can only hope that some v19 bug fixes have been rolled into the v20 that supports Cypher3+. If I'm being charitable I can imagine the reason the v19 bugs weren't fixed sooner is that everyone was busy working on this big update and it would have taken time to do them separately.
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Personally, I would prefer that the navigation supported Android Auto / Google Maps (and whetever the Apple equivalent is) but from the limited info it seems likely it's their own solution. Also, at that price I'd be more inclined to just buy a decent phone mount like Quadlock - with the added benefit I could switch between bikes.
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Here's the big question... will my 2020 SR/F be upgradeable to Cypber III+? Will it be OTA? Will it be automatic? Will I be able to access the 10% charge boost and range boost features?
Cas :)
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You get to select a model on this page and it shows available upgrades. the 2020 SR/F is listed, so I'd say all those features will be available. I can't see any reason why it wouldn't be an OTA upgrade - although it might not be until "early Spring 2022".
https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/en-gb/cypherstore
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Aww rats, no extended range for me then. Still, it was good enough when I bought it, it's still good enough now. Quite interested in +10% charging speed tho.
Cas :)
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I think the only one of the upgrades I may pony up $$$ for would be the turn by turn navigation on the dash (on my 2020 SRF). I hate having to deal with a separate GPS or Phone when there is a perfectly good screen there (and a built in GPS). I've managed without reverse so far without any real issues, and range and charging is OK for my needs. Bummer is it looks like that's a dealer upgrade (navigation, kind of a long drive to my dealer).
Steve
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Here's the big question... will my 2020 SR/F be upgradeable to Cypber III+? Will it be OTA? Will it be automatic? Will I be able to access the 10% charge boost and range boost features?
Cas :)
I think some are OTA but others you have to visit a dealer.
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Zero should have gone the same route Honda did on their high end bikes; Apple Carplay and Android Auto via bluetooth. No reason to come up with some oddball proprietary system for navigation when everyone carries a phone that is capable of this.
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Absolutely, Android Auto and Carplay. They turn the display into a terminal, allowing one to use Google Maps, Waze, music apps and a growing list of others, all familiar, future-proofed, updated continuously and royalty-free. A proprietary map system is an obvious misstep.
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Absolutely, Android Auto and Carplay. They turn the display into a terminal, allowing one to use Google Maps, Waze, music apps and a growing list of others, all familiar, future-proofed, updated continuously and royalty-free. A proprietary map system is an obvious misstep.
Agree, that would have been nice. It's a dealer install because you need FW upgrades for things owners can't do. If it's a new bike, they've already done it.
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Personally, I think this whole approach is just the start of moving to a dealer-less selling model, like Tesla. Just order your bike online and it'll be delivered direct.
Having the majority of optional features already installed, but not activated means they don't have to hold stock of every possible variation, just a few common models which will automatically activate their selected configuration upon delivery.
I've got to assume this is where they're heading, cutting the dealerships out of the lucrative accessories market will do doubt increase their profit margins, but is likely to alienate those same dealerships. They will surely have already anticipated that they may well loose some dealers due to this, but if they are ultimately moving to direct sales, it's not going to concern them in the long run...
Ulster Zero
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Cutting dealers and thus service departments out would be a mistake in my opinion. These bikes are not reliable enough and too expensive to just send out into customer's hands and expect them to be able to diagnose and fix their own problems. A $3500 Sur-Ron is one thing. An $11,000 FX is totally different.
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Bout ye. You might be right, but Tesla has an excellent support network in which they have invested heavily. They'll turn up at your door and rotate your tires for you. I can't imagine Zero *ever* having those kind of resources. So maybe you can point-click-buy and a bike will appear in your driveway a few days later, but for servicing you'll still need a Zero-friendly local dealer.
In my experience when buying a new Zero, my local dealership was the very, very worst at sales. When it comes to servicing however they are fine, so that would work out great for me.
Personally, I think this whole approach is just the start of moving to a dealer-less selling model, like Tesla. Just order your bike online and it'll be delivered direct.
Having the majority of optional features already installed, but not activated means they don't have to hold stock of every possible variation, just a few common models which will automatically activate their selected configuration upon delivery.
I've got to assume this is where they're heading, cutting the dealerships out of the lucrative accessories market will do doubt increase their profit margins, but is likely to alienate those same dealerships. They will surely have already anticipated that they may well loose some dealers due to this, but if they are ultimately moving to direct sales, it's not going to concern them in the long run...
Ulster Zero
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The latest Indian-manufactured Royal Enfield motorcycle models have a device on their display called a "Tripper". It is a small round illuminated display that links to your cell phone via Bluetooth. It connects to Google Maps and displays both the time and a directional arrow and distance to your next turn to get to a destination that you have entered into your phone. This appears to be a standard feature of their motorcycles and they do not charge extra for this device. Check out their 350cc Meteor models for a better description, which appear to be selling well in the U.K and the U.S. this year. No Cyber III+ needed. ::)
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If you're interested in getting the something similar on your Zero there's the Beeline. Expensive for what it is but cheaper than the upgrade from Zero.
https://global.beeline.co/pages/beeline-moto
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I have the BeeLine. It's a hassle to set-up, recharge etc. I am very much looking forward to the dash update.
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This incentivizes the somewhat healthy hacker community around Zeros to produce custom firmwares and give these features for free. Warranty covered by the Magnusson Moss warranty act if it can be done well. I'd like to see them prove that reverse mode and turn by turn caused a premature failure of a battery or charger, and eventually that a user unlocking that extra 17% charging speed and whatever battery percentage caused any more damage than theirs could do UNDER THE SAME WARRANTY. This is a bad move by Zero. Just bake the cost into the bike or don't do it at all. App purchases are especially cringey.
I understand why they are doing this but there's only one way I see it: Having the percentage of users that don't upgrade partially subsidize the hardware cost of possible warranty replacements of those that do is ludicrous.
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What we have found in the gaming world is this:
When you make a game, you often build in all the content in the base downloadable, then disable a bunch of it, and call it the "base game" and sell it for $15.
Then you release some DLC, and sell that for $5, and all it actually does is unlock the content that people already have.
HOWEVER... and this is the interesting bit really... it seems that DLC rarely sells to existing customers. Instead what happens is that new customers come along, evaluate the $15 and $20 options, and invariably determine that the $20 option is better value in their heads, as their brains are making a value decision based on "$15 for x" and "$20 for x AND y". As opposed to seeing a single product where the value comparison they have in their heads is "$0 - don't buy it at all" vs "$20 for a game".
I believe this is the exact psychology behind the concepts shown here by Zero (and indeed BMW, KTM, and to a lesser extent Triumph and Ducati). We even have anecdotal evidence backing this up - almost all BMWs, KTMs, etc are sold loaded with the entire gamut of toys, according to dealers - they almost never sell base models. Not only do people perceive the value of the fully loaded models to be intrinsically better than the base models, but they also know that the same is true of the second hand market as well, and it's much harder to shift base models than it is ones with all of the desirable farkles.
So well done to Zero for figuring this out.
Cas :)
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Very true, Cas. You need to be a marketing consultant. ;)
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Disclaimer: I'd be rich if I knew what I was talking about...
Cas :)
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I wonder what it would take to unlock the full 17.3 KwH nominal capacity of the 15.6+ battery in an S-platform bike. With a big windscreen on a '13-'21 SR and 110 Wh/mi, we'd be looking at 130+ miles of highway range.
I also wonder how many charging amps the 14.4+ and 15.6+ can tolerate before they hit 1C and cut out. 100 miles of riding followed by 40 mins of charging at cheap and easy-to-find J-stations would be a pretty compelling proposition. I don't see how any other e-bike could do better for longer trips, even the Energicas.
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I wonder what it would take to unlock the full 17.3 KwH nominal capacity of the 15.6+ battery in an S-platform bike. With a big windscreen on a '13-'21 SR and 110 Wh/mi, we'd be looking at 130+ miles of highway range.
I also wonder how many charging amps the 14.4+ and 15.6+ can tolerate before they hit 1C and cut out. 100 miles of riding followed by 40 mins of charging at cheap and easy-to-find J-stations would be a pretty compelling proposition. I don't see how any other e-bike could do better for longer trips, even the Energicas.
Zero's numbers currently indicate 113 miles of range on the unlocked 17.3kWh pack with an added 3.6 Power Tank at 70mph.
What highway speeds on an S are you getting 110 Wh/mi on? Your assertion of 'a big windscreen' leads me to believe you have a limited grasp of how this works.
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I average about 110 on my ‘17 SR with the CalSci screen at 65-70 MPH. I also over-inflate the tires to 40 and 38 PSI and my throttle hand is pretty gentle. I don’t tuck unless I have range anxiety, though, and I don’t have wheel covers or other aero mods, so I consider 110 to be pretty easily achievable with a big screen on the front. Sometimes I get below 100 and sometimes it’s more like 130, but average is somewhere around 110.
Assuming a useable Kwh rating of ~15 from the Cypher-unlocked pack, that would predict about 135 miles at that efficiency, or about 120 realistic for people who don’t like to wring out every last joule and coast up to the charger.
I realize that getting the extra 10% out of these batteries on an S-platform bike is unlikely to happen anytime soon, but it’s interesting to think about the possibility for long distances on a lighter and more efficient bike than the FST models.
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I wonder what it would take to unlock the full 17.3 KwH nominal capacity of the 15.6+ battery in an S-platform bike. With a big windscreen on a '13-'21 SR and 110 Wh/mi, we'd be looking at 130+ miles of highway range.
I also wonder how many charging amps the 14.4+ and 15.6+ can tolerate before they hit 1C and cut out. 100 miles of riding followed by 40 mins of charging at cheap and easy-to-find J-stations would be a pretty compelling proposition. I don't see how any other e-bike could do better for longer trips, even the Energicas.
1C is half defined in time so it is always an hour* at that rate (for a full charge). Unless you mean what the stations would need to put out to achieve that rate...
in which case my old ZF13.0 needs 104Amps (12.1kW max not accounting the extra needed for charger losses, 10.6kW average over entire charge) which already maxes out most dual-J setups. So 14.4+ and 15.6+ would only be worse (higher power requirements) than what a high percentage of even dual-J1772 AC stations can do.
*except that CC/CV charging curves require us to slow down on the tail end of the charge to limit the voltage/current.
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I average about 110 on my ‘17 SR with the CalSci screen at 65-70 MPH.
I do not believe you.
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70mi range at 70mph for the ZF13.0 was a pretty reliable figure on the DSR. Longest I ever got was 40mph for 169mi. Slow down to 52mph and that ZF13.0 would get 100mi range on level ground.
What battery is that on the 2017 SR?
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I would never be able to get over 90 miles of range out of my 2018S with Power Tank at a speed of 65 mph on level ground in calm wind. I have the Zero "touring" windshield installed on my bike, which I would rate as a medium-size shield. I have installed large windshields on a couple of my BMW motorcycles in the past and in every case they decreased the gas mileage. There seems to be a point where increasing the size of windshields creates more aerodynamic drag than they reduce - which I think makes sense. And don't forget that if you are riding against a wind (which seems to happen more often that having a tail wind ::) ) that will really affect your motorcycle's efficiency, especially as your speed increases.
BTW, I have heard that CalSci no longer is making motorcycle windshields. I believe the company went out of business. ??? Too bad. They had a good reputation for supplying well designed and manufactured motorcycle windshields and having good customer service.
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1C is half defined in time so it is always an hour* at that rate (for a full charge). Unless you mean what the stations would need to put out to achieve that rate...
in which case my old ZF13.0 needs 104Amps (12.1kW max not accounting the extra needed for charger losses, 10.6kW average over entire charge) which already maxes out most dual-J setups. So 14.4+ and 15.6+ would only be worse (higher power requirements) than what a high percentage of even dual-J1772 AC stations can do.
*except that CC/CV charging curves require us to slow down on the tail end of the charge to limit the voltage/current.
What I meant was, does the 14.4+ have a 10% higher charging amp limit than the old 14.4, or is the 1C calculation based on the same 12.6 kWh? And does buying the Cypher upgrade increase that limit or is it always available? I agree that it would be difficult to take advantage of charging speeds greater than 13.2 kW in the US, but it would be nice to know if a person could potentially charge at up to 17.3 kW using 3 J-plugs, 2 Tesla DC’s, or 2 14-50R’s.
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I do not believe you.
It’s an estimate, and it’s possible I’m being optimistic. I can tell you that the bike has a lifetime average of 105 Wh/mi and most of those miles are highway trips from point A to B, but there’s no hard and fast way that I know of to record efficiency at highway speeds separate from city riding or twisties.
If we assume 130 Wh/mi instead of 110, that would still be about 115 miles from 15 kWh. If I read Zero’s marketing correctly, there’s potentially another 10% capacity past that using the deeper charge mode.
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70mi range at 70mph for the ZF13.0 was a pretty reliable figure on the DSR. Longest I ever got was 40mph for 169mi. Slow down to 52mph and that ZF13.0 would get 100mi range on level ground.
What battery is that on the 2017 SR?
It’s the ZF13.0 and it’s at about 80% of original capacity (just enough over 80% that Zero won’t replace it). I get about 65-70 highway miles, 75 if I’m really tempting fate. It depends on the windyness of the route, of course. Yesterday I went from Davis to Citrus Heights and back, which is only 31 miles each way, and I had to reduce speed and ride behind big rigs on the way back to make it on one charge. I was always able to make it from San Francisco to Tracy on one charge, which was about 70 miles, but I could never make it back without stopping unless I took the frontage roads.
I would never be able to get over 90 miles of range out of my 2018S with Power Tank at a speed of 65 mph on level ground in calm wind. I have the Zero "touring" windshield installed on my bike, which I would rate as a medium-size shield. I have installed large windshields on a couple of my BMW motorcycles in the past and in every case they decreased the gas mileage. There seems to be a point where increasing the size of windshields creates more aerodynamic drag than they reduce - which I think makes sense. And don't forget that if you are riding against a wind (which seems to happen more often that having a tail wind ::) ) that will really affect your motorcycle's efficiency, especially as your speed increases.
BTW, I have heard that CalSci no longer is making motorcycle windshields. I believe the company went out of business. ??? Too bad. They had a good reputation for supplying well designed and manufactured motorcycle windshields and having good customer service.
I can’t compare the CalSci to the touring screen, but it definitely boosted my range compared to the small commuter screen.
I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone, though. The mounting method was terrible, and it came loose and smacked me in the face the first time I rode on the highway with it. Luckily the wind pinned it to my chest and I was able to pull off at the next exit and tie it down to the top case. I ended up using longer bolts with nuts on the other side instead of relying on the pressure fit of the stock bolts. The arms that hold the screen to the headlight also cracked all the way through and broke off. I had to wrap it with shipping tape, which actually seems just as strong as whatever material they were using. The method of attaching the fork clamps requires about 5 hands because of the nuts and washers on each side of the hose clamp and the fact that you have to pinch the clamp, line up the mounting arm, and hold 2 nuts and washers. When I had to take it off to replace the left fork seal, it took at least an hour to put back on. I decided that if I ever had to take it off again, the whole assembly was going in the garbage and I would either live with the reduced range of the commuter screen or get a Madstad like I should have done in the first place.
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What I meant was, does the 14.4+ have a 10% higher charging amp limit than the old 14.4, or is the 1C calculation based on the same 12.6 kWh? And does buying the Cypher upgrade increase that limit or is it always available? I agree that it would be difficult to take advantage of charging speeds greater than 13.2 kW in the US, but it would be nice to know if a person could potentially charge at up to 17.3 kW using 3 J-plugs, 2 Tesla DC’s, or 2 14-50R’s.
Ah I see, that's a very good question. My understanding from this poorly-constructed ad campaign is that it will allow you to charge and discharge (emphasis on discharge) your cells deeper on 2022 models. "Get access up to 20% more ... includes a 10% extended capacity [sic] charging" seems to indicate they allow you to charge 10% higher and discharge 10% deeper because your battery is actually 20% larger than it reports. What would really be interesting is if someone with a newer model could see if they are still charging up to 116.x Vdc and discharging down to 84.x-86.x Vdc (3.0-Vpc) on each model BEFORE they do the Cypher upgrade for reasons listed below--and if false roughly what the new values are. Obviously I don't believe they've gone outside that range with the upgrade, but I'm curious about what the limiting was before. I know also Zero has a pessimism variable that is used in displaying range estimates and SoC in some manner, and with higher cell quality you can dip more into this and more reliably cut off close to 0% and 100%.
I'm a fan of the tax credits, but the government needs to step in and stop this naming hell loophole of "max kwh" before every company is doing it and evolving this further.
14.4*kWh_MAX is the Standard (SR, SR/F, SR/S), 15.6*kWh_MAX is Premium (SR/S, SR/F only), 17.3kWh_MAX is Unlocked for one or both of them, +3.6kWh_MAX Power Tank=20.9kWh_MAX (from stats)
The new Zero-supplied specs still state (11/7/21 for 2022 models):
12.6kWh_TRUE for the Standard, 13.7kWH_TRUE for the Premium, the power tank is still 3.2kWH_TRUE so I'm only seeing a largest potential cap. of 16.9kWH_TRUE with the premium model unlocked+PT (still impressive).
From this, the SR will only be the standard 12.6_T battery, the SR/F and SR/S are still the only ones with the option of the premium 13.7_T. To answer your question by Zero's purported numbers no, it's still based on 12.6 unless they are allowing over 1C charging or the voltages limits have changed. By the advertising? The 12.6_T may be capable of "up to 17.3_MAX" so it's still unknown. Are Zero's stats technically not true? Is the 12.6_TRUE secretly a ZF17.3_MAX/ZF15.3_TRUE? It's not like it affects the tax credit for how much the capacity is stated over 2.5kWh for 2 wheelers... so they could underreport and change the source of the nominal values from [likely] Farasis to themselves.
TL;DR: Zero's specs indicate it's still either just a ZF14.4 or a ZF15.6 but it all depends on the unlockability of the ZF14.4 model whether it is now secretly a 15.6 or not.
By the way, that 16.9kWH_TRUE/~102.2Vnominal=165.4AH which actually yields 165.4*116.2Vmax=19.2kW max charging power needed at end of charge at 1C! It's only 16.9kW average over entire charging range and starts going higher above 50% or so (and lower below). So above 50% 16.9kW wouldn't be enough to keep up with 1C. Not that these new models have an accessory charging port intended to be used by the consumer. At least they are finally increasing charging speed, we'll see if it has the reliability to warrant its cost.
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I think you've gone and confused yourself. Here, use my spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13SSEUrAld2zh3wmrBYSLkEODtCYEeFCevFXc0QvryUA/edit?usp=sharing
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Edit: I've been actively editing my previous post. I think I see why you think that, but I do realize the cells are likely different and am updating wording to reflect that. Is there a different reason why you think I'm confused?
What makes you think I'm confused?
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I found the proof in the Cypher store link that shows the addons for each model and can now definitively see this would be made a lot more clear by calling all of the new CypherIII 2022 batteries ZF17.3's. Thanks for the spreadsheet Morgan, it's much quicker than trying to mine this from Zero's website. With Zero's specs' incorrect restricted nominal kWh values, Zero might not allow anyone with a restricted bike to charge at true 1C for these packs of 165AmpsDC. So they've done the same thing as they did with "max" kWh and found a way to apply it to the nominal value as well. "Well, if you calculate it based on what we allow out of/into the pack...". I'm not even sure why Zero allows Cypher 2 bikes to retain warranties at 1C. My philosophy was never charge faster than Zero has their own option for, which was 8.7kW-11.3kW on my 2016 SR.
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Thanks for the spreadsheet, Morgan! That clears up a lot. So the potential 20% Cypher upgrade increase is for the 14.4+ pack, with 10% available from the 15.6+ with a deep charge. It’s interesting that the maxed out Premium is cheaper than the maxed Standard trim.
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What makes you think I'm confused?
I dunno man, have you seen your own post?
(https://i.imgur.com/cJh0Epy.jpg)
But as a serious answer, you're overthinking this. Let me break it down using small words.
NEW BIG CELLS. Zero cap cells. Super safe. Way below hurt hurt zone. For money put cell in normal zone. Not hurt. Same high. Same low.
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What makes you think I'm confused?
I dunno man, have you seen your own post?
(https://i.imgur.com/cJh0Epy.jpg)
But as a serious answer, you're overthinking this. Let me break it down using small words.
NEW BIG CELLS. Zero cap cells. Super safe. Way below hurt hurt zone. For money put cell in normal zone. Not hurt. Same high. Same low.
Still nothing specific. Cool.
High and low would obviously not be the same then if you don't spend then. Sorry to get too technical on you?
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When this was all posted I did a brief scour of Zero's website and somehow missed those options. So my post is perfectly valid for someone that did not have proof of what the exact options were for the 2022 SR.
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At over $26k, the top-of-the-range SR/F does not look at all competitive with the Energica Ribelle. Or even the LiveWire, or whatever it's going to be called these days.
Cas :)
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At over $26k, the top-of-the-range SR/F does not look at all competitive with the Energica Ribelle. Or even the LiveWire, or whatever it's going to be called these days.
Cas :)
It looks that way to me too, especially as the H-D EV has dropped its MSRP to not much over $20K and is backed up by the resources of that company. And Energica sales are still going like gangbusters at competitive prices, especially in Europe and with a much higher (claimed) battery pack than even the 2022 Zero models offer.
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I do not like this entire approach.
I'm not a battery engineer, but paying the the unlock(s) means charging the battery to higher capacity, reducing the top buffer and/or charging at higher rates.
As far as I can tell, both of these stress the battery more, even if it's not to "hurt" levels.
I don't believe Zero has any statistical info on how significant this extra stress is, unless they've been running these batteries with the new cells -- dozens of bikes, hundreds of thousands of miles -- at all combos of capacity and charge; which we know they haven't.
Yes, if the owner pays for the unlocks, they still have the same warranty (which at 5 years for the battery is already less than the 8-year warranty BEV cars get); the charger still gets only the 2-year warranty.
However, all the warranty gives the owner is that they don't pay for the warranty work if needed. It doesn't avoid the associated hassles or loss of riding days. Over here, pretty much noone can afford owning more than one bike, and quite commonly, it's either bike or car.
Zero's track record with MTBF isn't great. Anecdotally, it looks like ~10% of bikes until today develop disabling faults making them unrideable within a few years.
I doubt Zero's large and organized enough to deal with the configuration control this scheme needs.
Zero will probably need to rule me out as a future customer at this point.
IMO, this will not work well a.f.a. as marketing to the general riding public goes, either. Yes, Tesla and some luxury ICE brands have been doing this to a limited extent for a while -- but not for major capabilities (Tesla's SW unlock of battery capacity was a temporary measure; they no longer do it).
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That last 10% upgrade that probably stresses the battery more is entirely optional. The premium bikes still get a bump from 14.4 to 15.6, and an option to upgrade the SR to that point. I imagine that'll be roughly the same as having a 14.4 for longevity. If the 14.4 owner never upgrades, I imagine battery lifespan will increase, because you're only charging to ~70-80% all the time.
Most people seem to own a bike for < 5 years anyway. As a dealer I think 10% is too high for MTBF in warranty, depending on how you define it. Can't really say I have metrics to back that up though. I'd hope that as the platform matures, Zero makes improvements to hardware and software to reduce early failures. I have heard that improvements to waterproofing and dash condensation are in the pipeline for this year.
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I do not like this entire approach.
I'm not a battery engineer, but paying the the unlock(s) means charging the battery to higher capacity, reducing the top buffer and/or charging at higher rates.
As far as I can tell, both of these stress the battery more, even if it's not to "hurt" levels.
I don't believe Zero has any statistical info on how significant this extra stress is, unless they've been running these batteries with the new cells -- dozens of bikes, hundreds of thousands of miles -- at all combos of capacity and charge; which we know they haven't.
Zero's previous gen cells operate with a certain amount of padding. By that I mean that the nominal voltage for the cells was 3.65vdc. In most cases, with such a cell, it's agreed upon that it's 'safe' to go as low as ~3.3vdc and as high as 4.2vdc. Zero stays well above the minimum and below the maximum. I can demonstrate with some easy math if needed, but I will say that the cells are capped at 4.157vdc on the high end, and 3.39vdc on the low end.
I have no reason to suspect these values are being exceeded with the new pack. The cell density has become much higher. So yeah, the new pack might only allow like... from 3.5vdc-4.157vdc with the 14.4, and the maximum unlocked pack may be the exact same 3.39-4.157vdc values.
Don't assume the cells are being stretched more. I wanna see some numbers before I jump to those conclusions.
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Not sure if anyone has reported this already, but I came across an article in Popular Science, where the Vice President of product development at Zero discusses the new higher capacity batteries for the 2022 SR, SR/F and SR/S models.
Apparently there are some improvements to the chemistry of the Farasis cells to allow greater capacity, and also to the chemical stability of the cells, which enables them to be charged to higher voltages. They have also added two fans to the battery pack to provide some active cooling during charging (and possibly discharging).
The article can be found at:-
https://www.popsci.com/technology/zero-motorcycles-unveils-sr-bike-new-battery-tech/ (https://www.popsci.com/technology/zero-motorcycles-unveils-sr-bike-new-battery-tech/)
Ulster Zero
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Not sure if anyone has reported this already, but I came across an article in Popular Science, where the Vice President of product development at Zero discusses the new higher capacity batteries for the 2022 SR, SR/F and SR/S models.
Apparently there are some improvements to the chemistry of the Farasis cells to allow greater capacity, and also to the chemical stability of the cells, which enables them to be charged to higher voltages. They have also added two fans to the battery pack to provide some active cooling during charging (and possibly discharging).
The article can be found at:-
https://www.popsci.com/technology/zero-motorcycles-unveils-sr-bike-new-battery-tech/ (https://www.popsci.com/technology/zero-motorcycles-unveils-sr-bike-new-battery-tech/)
Ulster Zero
Thanks. That article was both interesting and informative. :)
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This all feels wrong. I wonder if their engineers are proud of this..
I sort of get the software / park assist, navigation, upgrades that you have to pay for..
But a range upgrade... That feels like saying; Hey you bought this hardware, but we do not let you use it unless you pay extra.
For the ZFORCE 14.4+ to have an range extension of 20%..... It feels as if their trick is to use their battery limiter. Maybe in some cases have the battery voltage to drop a bit lower before it says 0%. Or change the maximum torque.
Or the battery has simply more power than 14.4Kwh and they simply do not let you use it. Than it maybe is a way to sell a more expensive bike,,, for a lower price?
My first guest would say that they are playing with some software limits… We will probably know when the manual’s come out.
Zero?is?super focused on allowing as many people as possible to discover the amazing experience of riding electric.?Creating upgrades that can be accessed after the purchase of a?motorcycle?allows riders to start at one place?(and price) and evolve if or when they need to add even more capability.?So, for example, the new 22MY SR allows owners to buy a more affordable motorcycle then explore upgrades over time. This also allows Zero to offer the SR at a more competitive price.
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Great to see Zero getting involved with the forum. There's a lot of enthusiasm here and it is likely to prove a useful place for seeing what Zero owners are experiencing in the real world. When I've seen manufacturers have an official presence on other forums that I'm on it's usually a good thing for everyone and helps with a positive view of the brand.
Right... I'm off to start a thread for all my feature requests. ;) (Actually, if I did then integration of navigation into the dash would have been on the list.)
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Great to see Zero getting involved with the forum...
That account (Zeromotorcycles) is indeed registered with a zeromotorcycles.com email alias in the forum registration database. In plain language: seems legitimate? This forum is not rich enough code-wise to assign "verified" badges and the like, so always be careful handing your information over to any forum user taking the position as being a sales and support vendor or manufacturer representative. ::)
Not the first time we've seen vendors on the forum, obviously.
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Great to see Zero getting involved with the forum...
That account (Zeromotorcycles) is indeed registered with a zeromotorcycles.com email alias in the forum registration database. In plain language: seems legitimate? This forum is not rich enough code-wise to assign "verified" badges and the like, so always be careful handing your information over to any forum user taking the position as being a sales and support vendor or manufacturer representative. ::)
Not the first time we've seen vendors on the forum, obviously.
Back in May 2021 when I had an issue with my FXS and mentioned it in one of my posts, this user reached out to me via PM with their name and email address. They said in their PMto me they were "Social Media Owner Support Rep for Zero Motorcycles". My direct emails to zeromotorcycles.com were handled by this person. They do work at Zero.
Whether it is a single person handling the account here or they may have several people handling it, I don't know.
Maybe a mod here could sticky a thread confirming that this account does in fact belong to Zero?
PS: When I did a Zero test ride event in Lakeland, FL about a month ago I spoke directly with a Zero engineer regarding this forum. Telling him that it can be a great resource for owners to discuss and solve issues. He didn't seem to know about it. I texted him a link to the thread where I had an issue that a dealer helped me solve. It would be great if Zero could take a more active roll in solving issues here.
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I've just noticed that all 3 Cyher 3+ options are available in the US for $195 each. However, in the UK faster charging and parking mode are £160 but on-dash navigation is £260. :o
(I'm looking at 2020 SR/F if that makes a difference.)
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I've just noticed that all 3 Cyher 3+ options are available in the US for $195 each. However, in the UK faster charging and parking mode are £160 but on-dash navigation is £260. :o
(I'm looking at 2020 SR/F if that makes a difference.)
Is it harder to get around the UK than the U.S.? ::)
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Actually... yes!
Cas :)
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Much harder. There isn't a square grid of streets to be found anywhere.