ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: waynebhayes on October 01, 2021, 06:58:39 AM
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Folks,
So far, I've owned a Zero S (2019), a Zero SR (2021), an SR/F (2020), and now I have an SR/S (2021).
About the only significant difference between the S and SR, I think, is that the S has a 7.2kWh battery, and the SR has a 14.4kWh. According to the current Zero website, the S weighs 313 lbs, the SR weighs 414---a difference of 101 lbs.
I have not been able to find a definitive answer anywhere as to the weight of a naked 14.4kWh battery, but from the above let's say a ballpark estimate is 200 lbs (101 lbs per 7.2 kWh).
The SR/S and SR/F both weigh about 500 lbs, give or take. So, adding a second 14.4kWh battery would take it up to about 700 lbs... which is about the same weight as a BMW K 1600 GS---which is also a physically huge bike, so there would be no problem making a Zero physically bigger to accommodate the battery space.
As another comparison, the Honda Gold Wing clocks in at about 800 lbs. Also huge and heavy---but well-balanced, just like the BMW. The Gold Wing has a 5.5Gal tank and gets about 42mpg -- giving a range of 230 miles.
So... why the heck doesn't Zero just make a touring bike that has 28.8kWh of battery, weighs 700 lbs, and has a range of over 300 miles in the city, 200 miles at 55mph, and 160 miles at 70mph? Heck, add another 7.2kWh and we're at 36kWh, about 800 lbs (like a Gold Wing), and the range will be 200 miles even at 70mph.
So we could strike at the ballpark of a Gold Wing with the same weight and same range.
I for one would jump at the opportunity to have a comfortable touring Zero with a range of 200 miles. And it's do-able right now---at least in principle.
Why haven't they done this? Is it on their radar at all?
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Well at least one guy threw a second full battery pack sideways where the "tank" goes so yes it can be done. Not really safely but it can be done.
The Energica + bikes have a 21kWh pack.
I can't help but point out that Damon is claiming 300 city miles with their HyperSport bike. They aren't in production at this time.
I do agree the smooth great ride of electric is ideal for touring, they still need much faster charging and more over all charging stations.
They will happen but it will take a while yet.
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When you make a physically larger bike, all the stuff that makes it physically larger weighs more.
-Crissa
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1) cost - Maybe $40-45k?
2) charge time - Maybe 30 minutes at a suitable DCFC station but multiple hours at level 2
3) the market for such a bike would probably be very small
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Folks,
So far, I've owned a Zero S (2019), a Zero SR (2021), an SR/F (2020), and now I have an SR/S (2021).
About the only significant difference between the S and SR, I think, is that the S has a 7.2kWh battery, and the SR has a 14.4kWh. According to the current Zero website, the S weighs 313 lbs, the SR weighs 414---a difference of 101 lbs.
I have not been able to find a definitive answer anywhere as to the weight of a naked 14.4kWh battery, but from the above let's say a ballpark estimate is 200 lbs (101 lbs per 7.2 kWh).
The SR/S and SR/F both weigh about 500 lbs, give or take. So, adding a second 14.4kWh battery would take it up to about 700 lbs... which is about the same weight as a BMW K 1600 GS---which is also a physically huge bike, so there would be no problem making a Zero physically bigger to accommodate the battery space.
As another comparison, the Honda Gold Wing clocks in at about 800 lbs. Also huge and heavy---but well-balanced, just like the BMW. The Gold Wing has a 5.5Gal tank and gets about 42mpg -- giving a range of 230 miles.
So... why the heck doesn't Zero just make a touring bike that has 28.8kWh of battery, weighs 700 lbs, and has a range of over 300 miles in the city, 200 miles at 55mph, and 160 miles at 70mph? Heck, add another 7.2kWh and we're at 36kWh, about 800 lbs (like a Gold Wing), and the range will be 200 miles even at 70mph.
So we could strike at the ballpark of a Gold Wing with the same weight and same range.
I for one would jump at the opportunity to have a comfortable touring Zero with a range of 200 miles. And it's do-able right now---at least in principle.
Why haven't they done this? Is it on their radar at all?
First, the bike's chassis would have to be able to safely carry, accelerate, brake and handle (suspension+steering) all that weight. That means a stronger, heavier & more expensive frame and other components.
That said, the SR/S-SR/F platform is a step in that direction: Its GVWR is significantly higher than the S & SR bikes.
The Goldwing, BTW, is a really bad example: It's functional payload is tiny because all the carrying capacity is devoted to dragging along the bike itself -- in fact, it's completely unsuited for purpose.
Its entire payload (2021 model) is 423 lbs; two average US residents weigh 369 lbs (average of male & female times 2) -- and that's without any clothes or riding gear. Add ~10 lbs/person for that, and you have ~30-35 lbs left for bike accessories, tools and any cargo whatsoever... Not exactly a lot for camping or any kind of touring for two people.
Virtually every Goldwing owner riding 2-up is exceeding the legal limit.
Not sure of the repercussions in various US, but over here, that may cause your insurance to be invalidated if you're involved in an accident, which is big deal.
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I think Zero's marketing goal is to make a greater penetration into the mid-range motorcycle market and especially to attract current ICE riders to electric. Going big and expensive as a few specialty builders have done is not going to meet their marketing goals. They are looking for volume sales and going "double or nothing" would likely result in sales heading more toward nothing. ;) What Zero seems to be doing is attempting to provide solid 800cc-class performance with prices dropping toward 800cc-class prices. Doubling up on the current battery pack size is not going to pencil-out for them or attract more customers.
What is really needed is new battery technology and that will come around someday. Only then will you see a touring/cruising Zero model. (IMHO)
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What is really needed is new battery technology and that will come around someday. Only then will you see a touring/cruising Zero model. (IMHO)
Someday battery technology will give us electric motorcycles that are lighter than ICE bike, have more range than any rider wants for a single ride, and recharge as fast as it takes to refuel ICE bikes. I hope I am around and still able to ride when they do.
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I think Zero's marketing goal is to make a greater penetration into the mid-range motorcycle market and especially to attract current ICE riders to electric. Going big and expensive as a few specialty builders have done is not going to meet their marketing goals. They are looking for volume sales and going "double or nothing" would likely result in sales heading more toward nothing. ;) What Zero seems to be doing is attempting to provide solid 800cc-class performance with prices dropping toward 800cc-class prices. Doubling up on the current battery pack size is not going to pencil-out for them or attract more customers.
What is really needed is new battery technology and that will come around someday. Only then will you see a touring/cruising Zero model. (IMHO)
I agree. Right now as far as I'm concerned, Zero is the only manufacturer making practical, affordable, highway-capable motorcycles for REASONABLE prices. The market is saturated with low-end bikes that are great for toodling around urban environments but not suitable for highway use and ultra-expensive boutique bikes whose sole purpose seems to be "Look what we can build!"
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I think the biggest technical challenge would be that zero will either redesign ther powertrain or their charging.
If not we will end up with a charge time of 20 hours.
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Lots of radically different chemistries on the horizon eg. lithium-sulphur, and radically different designs eg. solid-state. - quite likely we'll see a doubling in power density for the same weight within the next decade or so and the problem will gradually solve itself.
Zero's quite rightly focused on replacing bikes for 80% of the people 80% of the time to fund the fastest growth they can cope with. I think they'll be sticking with their current low-voltage motor and circuitry design for the next 5-10 years while they work on incremental pack upgrades (probably an 168h pack coming next few years with the latest Farasis cells), and they'll be focusing on trying to keep the cost level and boost "features" hopefully such as more and better on-board AC charging capability as they can't easily switch to higher voltage.
In the meantime we're stuck with 100 mile range and 12kW charging as state-of-the-art and while it's good enough for 80% of us 80% of the time, they need to double at least one of those numbers to make it good enough 80/90 and double again to get to 90/90. It'll get there... just not soon.
Cas :)
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A Zero covers far more than 80% of riding. The problem is, since bikes are seen as aspirational instead of tools, that's not good enough for many b buys. Bery few ride for more than an hour or two at a time.
But they aspire to these big weekend rides. Not what bikes are really good at, which is getting across the county for errands taking the long way and filtering through traffic to get there quickly.
-Crissa
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1) cost - Maybe $40-45k?
2) charge time - Maybe 30 minutes at a suitable DCFC station but multiple hours at level 2
3) the market for such a bike would probably be very small
3) the market for such a bike would probably be very small
I disagree. I think that market may be smaller than say for electric commuters, but the people who do high miles will be happy to pay extra for it - which makes that market significant. Look at the sales of expensive adventure bikes for example. Electric adventure bikes with long range capabilities will sell like hot cakes, but they don't exist yet.
I won't be buying electric until I can get either:
1. half day's (100 miles) recharge in say 10-15 mins, or
2. 200 miles range
Both are getting close - maybe another two years.
(No 1 isn't because I only stop for 10-15 min at lunchtime, it's because if everyone in your riding group needs to charge, you can't ALL hog the charger for an hour each.)
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That sounds more like you need more chargers than faster charging.
-Crissa
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I suggested somewhere that about the only electrical bike that makes sense for acute sufferers of range anxiety would be a GoldWing style bike. Purposefully built heavy duty tourer like that should in theory be able to effortlessly take you 1000 km in a day, then recharge overnight. It would weigh a ton, and handle like a wet rag, but you'd have that range. And GoldWing buyers are generally not really worried about few thousand extra bucks for the extra range. Another plus would be how difficult it would be to steal.
I'm heading in the other direction, smaller and lighter, might even go for a SuperCub, but this might be valid option for some others.
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In general I really like my bike. I use it instead of a car. In the Netherlands the distance between places issn't really big.
Is this a bike to compair with a ICE bike? not in my opinion.
But I do think it is a perfect solution to use to travel to work. Charge at home or at work; and go back and forth.
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What Zero really needs is a low slung, cruiser with swept back handlebars and V-Twin shaped battery with a pair of speakers at the back putting out a loping rumble noise. That would cover about 50% of the Florida motorcycle market. At least they already have the belt drive portion covered.
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don't forget the chrome....everywhere 8)
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don't forget the chrome....everywhere 8)
And tassels, along with a small good luck bell at the bottom front of the bike just behind the wheel to ward off evil spirits! ;)
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invece che una doppia batteria preferirei un caricatore super veloce , meno peso da portarsi in giro, costo inefriore all'acquisto. ti voglio vedere percorre 300 miglia o 480 km tutto di un fiato,un conto percorrerli a 150 km/ h , 20 anni fa ne percorsi 1450km in un giorno, ma se viaggi a 80 km/h perchè al contrario non riesci ad arrivare a destinazione , le sei ore di file di giuda diventano molte ,ti viene il sedere quadrato.
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In case you are not yet aware: http://brutusmotorcycle.com/brutusV9.html
33.7kWh and DC fast charging, if you can afford it. I wish I could.
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I agree. Right now as far as I'm concerned, Zero is the only manufacturer making practical, affordable, highway-capable motorcycles for REASONABLE prices. The market is saturated with low-end bikes that are great for toodling around urban environments but not suitable for highway use and ultra-expensive boutique bikes whose sole purpose seems to be "Look what we can build!"
Curious why you are excluding Energica from that statement. The pricing is quite similar between an SR/S Premium with additional 6KW or Power Tank, and a Esse Esse 9+ and the battery size difference and DC fast charging more than accounts for the Energica pulling in a bit more money. One reason to exclude them might be that you have to go up to the top of the line Zero to get close to an Energica. If that's the reason, then I can see that. But if you are looking for a Zero suited for long trips, then you were probably already looking at the top Zeros.
I own an SR with charge tank, which works pretty well, but I'm considering a move to the bigger Energica in order to be able to do more with it.
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Energicas are not at all reasonably priced. Here in the UK they're nearly as expensive as the LiveWire, which is to say, approximately twice as expensive as Zeros. But definitely not twice as good. They're exotica for the well-heeled, plain and simple, like MV and Ducati. Except even pricier.
Cas :)
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My spouse got her Ducati new for only a couple K more than our friend just got a used Rebel without ABS for.
Prices are high right now in the vehicle markets from bikes to trucks and very regional.
-Crissa
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Must be. I'm pricing out Both Zero SR/S and Energica models, both coming in about $25k USD. Crazy that the prices are so different regionally.
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I agree. Right now as far as I'm concerned, Zero is the only manufacturer making practical, affordable, highway-capable motorcycles for REASONABLE prices. The market is saturated with low-end bikes that are great for toodling around urban environments but not suitable for highway use and ultra-expensive boutique bikes whose sole purpose seems to be "Look what we can build!"
Curious why you are excluding Energica from that statement. The pricing is quite similar between an SR/S Premium with additional 6KW or Power Tank, and a Esse Esse 9+ and the battery size difference and DC fast charging more than accounts for the Energica pulling in a bit more money. One reason to exclude them might be that you have to go up to the top of the line Zero to get close to an Energica. If that's the reason, then I can see that. But if you are looking for a Zero suited for long trips, then you were probably already looking at the top Zeros.
I own an SR with charge tank, which works pretty well, but I'm considering a move to the bigger Energica in order to be able to do more with it.
You are comparing the Energicas with the top of the line Zeros. However, the Gen2 bikes are the ones I'm talking about. The FX, FXE, FXS, S and DS (even when they had the 14.4kWh battery) were far cheaper than any Energica yet all are capable of going onto the highway. The FX bikes don't have the range of the S and DS bikes but they are far more capable than those cheap bikes coming out of China. I'll reserve my judgement on that Sondor bike until it is actually shipping.
My 2018 S with the 13kWh battery was exactly what I was looking for. A year later I upgraded it with the 6kW charge tank and I still paid a lot less for that combo than even a base version SR/F, never mind the Energicas. That's what I was talking about. My idea of "Reasonable Price" is UNDER $20,000 out the door.
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My daughter just rode the 38 miles to my house to visit me today. She still had 69% SOC shown on her 2014 Zero with Power Tank when she arrived. That is the same performance that I get with my 2018 S with PT. Not bad after almost 8 years. :) It sure beats taking at least 6 hours to go the same distance using three different public transit systems. :o
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Or the hours to pedal it ^-^
-Crissa
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Lot of really good answers here, folks. Thanks. I certainly agree the SR/[SF] are a step in the right direction.
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In case you are not yet aware: http://brutusmotorcycle.com/brutusV9.html
33.7kWh and DC fast charging, if you can afford it. I wish I could.
Also firmly in the vaporware category.
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In case you are not yet aware: http://brutusmotorcycle.com/brutusV9.html
33.7kWh and DC fast charging, if you can afford it. I wish I could.
Also firmly in the vaporware category.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKSS3fqDmZg
Seems pretty real. Stupidly expensive, too.
-Crissa
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In case you are not yet aware: http://brutusmotorcycle.com/brutusV9.html
33.7kWh and DC fast charging, if you can afford it. I wish I could.
Also firmly in the vaporware category.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKSS3fqDmZg
Seems pretty real. Stupidly expensive, too.
-Crissa
Look at the rear shots in that video @ 2:52 and 2:56. Ridiculously huge brick of a battery on each side of the bike. Must be the 33.7 kWh pack that weighs 886 lbs. I wonder how many they have actually built?
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Only takes one to not be vapor. Especially when they're not promising lots more.
-Crissa
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Only takes one to not be vapor. Especially when they're not promising lots more.
-Crissa
Bold above is the only thing that makes this true. Lots of manufacturers make single concept or preproduction vehicle and then don't follow through or take far too long to bring an actual product to market. Take Tesla and their Cybertruck for example. Musk first introduced it in April 2013. It now looks like actual volume production will be 10 years from that date. And almost 4 years since they took deposits.
https://www.autonews.com/article/20130410/RETAIL07/130419986/musk-tesla-could-build-second-plant-in-texas#axzz2Q8x1rttY
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It's not vapor is they have one.
Vapor means it doesn't exist at all.
-Crissa
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Semi-corporeal then ;)
Cas :)
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1. Vaporware - they can talk about it
2. Protoware - they can ride it
3. Prodware - I can buy one & get it serviced by a dealer
The step from 1 to 2 is big, the step from 2 to 3 is enormous.
If I'm not wrong, Damon is just embarking on step 2, with the rolling protoype only moving around 20-30mph tops.
Or maybe I missed a full-throttle video?
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Damon and Brutus seem firmly in step 2, yeah. Getting to a bike we can buy, well, the two are trying to take different paths to step 3. Damon is trying to be a manufacturer, Brutus is making bespoke bikes. Brutus's path is simpler, the goals aren't as lofty.
-Crissa
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Where does Lightning fall on this scale?
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Where does Lightning fall on this scale?
Perhaps Lightning fell off of the scale. ;)
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Damon and Brutus seem firmly in step 2, yeah. Getting to a bike we can buy, well, the two are trying to take different paths to step 3. Damon is trying to be a manufacturer, Brutus is making bespoke bikes. Brutus's path is simpler, the goals aren't as lofty.
-Crissa
Spot on. Maybe I missed an evolutionary stage:
1. Vaporware - they can talk about it
2. Protoware - they can ride it
2.5 Bespokeware - I can buy one, but only one garage/team knows how to fix it
3. Prodware - I can buy one & get it serviced by a dealer
I'd hazard that stage 2.5 almost never blossoms into 3 - that was never in a plan.
Which is fine, and well done Brutus for getting further than Damon. :o
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Lots of bespoke bikes. Lightning is definitely in the wrong for trying to masquerade bespoke bikes as production.
-Crissa
Yeah, Brutus has been doing it for a decade longer.
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I have understood vaporware (outside the software industry) to be product that was announced, maybe some prototypes built, journalists allowed to test prototypes, even some examples sold. But never (or only handful of examples*) delivered to Joe Public regular customers.
*Not to be confused with predetermined limited production run products.
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Vaporware is product that doesn't exist, no working prototypes.
-Crissa
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Wikipedia has yet another opinion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
"In the computer industry, vaporware (or vapourware) is a product, typically computer hardware or software, that is announced to the general public but is late or never actually manufactured nor officially cancelled. Use of the word has broadened to include products such as automobiles."
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With software, not manufactured usually means it never worked to begin with. Because in software you do have to sell what you can do before you do it to deliver it.
-Crissa