ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: mdjak1 on April 11, 2021, 12:03:45 AM
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Today my wife and I took my 2017 FXS modular 6.5 out for a ride. I wanted to test its range. We are in Florida. We started at 100% and ended at 12%. Our loop was along a beach road, then inland to a state road and home. The total loop was 22 miles. Our average speed was about 30 mph. At no time did we exceed 50 mph. We were in ECO mode the entire time. Two up we are about 320 lbs. And it was a very windy day today.
When we got home I plugged in and the bike showed it would be fully charged in 3-1/2 hours. This is using a charging cable modified to plug into a 220 volt outlet to supply the onboard charger. Last time I tried to charge my bike on a 110 volt outlet with a different cable the onboard charger actually stopped charging after a minute and the bike never gave me any report on time to charge.
Frankly, I was expecting more range. It makes me wonder if one of the two packs are bad. I suppose I could remove one pack and see what range I get with just a single pack.
Beyond the range test, is there any way for an owner to see if the battery is bad or failing? When I charge, I have a relatively small cell balance number (usually 3 to 10 MV).
The bike is new to me. I have no relationship with the local dealer. I do have a new onboard charger on order from AF1.
In general, I don't really need much more range anyway as my rides are usually local. The bike isn't particularly comfortable for my wife twoup either at this point. But as it is still within the battery warranty, if the battery is out of spec, then I think it should get replaced.
EDIT: And after charging on 220 volts to about 70%, I plugged in the 110 volt cable and of course, it is charging on that cable now too. Still reports the same time to full charge as when plugged in to 220 volts.
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It definitely sounds like one of the packs could have de-synched and not been active the entire time. Doing a capacity test on a Zero is actually fairly easy. Buy or borrow a Kill-A-Watt meter. Drain the bike all the way empty. Put the meter between the outlet and the bike and do a full charge. Report back here with how many kWh it added.
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It would also be possible to drive the bike until it does not go. and afterwhich check the BMS log. It will state the amount of AH that the ride will have used and with that a battery capacity.
thats how zero checked my battery healt
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It definitely sounds like one of the packs could have de-synched and not been active the entire time. Doing a capacity test on a Zero is actually fairly easy. Buy or borrow a Kill-A-Watt meter. Drain the bike all the way empty. Put the meter between the outlet and the bike and do a full charge. Report back here with how many kWh it added.
I went out to get a Kill-A-Watt from my local Harbor Freight. The bike was already over 70%. Once I bought the Kill-A-Watt I figured why not run it to 0% by taking the long way home. Part of that route was on a highway. While on the highway I got the yellow temperature light. Got home with 2%. And of course, the bike doesn't want to charge on 110 or 220. Probably due to the high temperature.
While checking it, I noticed the front battery is quite warm. But the rear battery is stone cold. (remember it is modular 2 battery bike) So either the rear pack is dead or de-synced??? If de-synced, is there anything I can do to fix it?
Further, I removed the rear battery and plugged in the little box to allow the bike to run on just the single battery. There was no change in the display. Still 2%. I removed the front battery and put the rear battery in its place. The display showed nothing when I turned the key. It also wouldn't charge when I plugged it in. But it no longer had the yellow temperature light flashing.
So I put the front battery back in place. Display then showed the 2% again.
Next up I will pull the BMS log and see how much power was used on the two rides.
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Sounds like that second battery pack is not happy. Definitely take it in!
Wind is a bigger problem for the bike than weight, unless you're going up hills ^-^
-Crissa
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Last time I checked it the bike was 68% charged and the Kill-A-Watt showed only 1.34 kWh applied. At this rate the bike will only take about 2 kWh to get to 100%. It does seem like the rear battery isn't recognized or being charged. Even the battery that is recognized isn't putting out anywhere near the 3.25 kWh that it is supposed to have.
I did download the logs prior to charging but I'm not really sure what I should be looking for.
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Clearly one battery isn't working. Bike is now 100%. Kill-A-Watt shows 2.45 kWh fed into bike. Front battery is warm. Rear battery is stone cold.
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The bike will not try to use or charge packs that have different voltages.
-Crissa
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The bike will not try to use or charge packs that have different voltages.
-Crissa
Say the battery is still good but the issue is the different voltages. Can this be fixed? If so, how is this fixed?
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The BMS is supposed to take care of this. Basically it will try to re-synch during the charge process. What is SUPPOSED to happen is the charger will engage the lower of the two packs first. When that 'lower' pack is close enough to the other pack it will close the contactor on the second battery and charge them together.
It's possible that a freak accident happened and the rear pack is now too low to actually accept a charge, so the charger isn't even engaging it. Definitely sounds like something the dealer will need to take a look at.
Additionally, just for your own info, realistically expect to see ~2.65kWh from each single brick. They are 26Ah. To find Watt hours you multiply Amp hours by the nominal voltage. In this case, Zero's nominal voltage is 102vdc. 26Ah x 102V = 2652Wh = 2.65kWh
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So another thing came to my mind on this. Try to just charge the rear battery alone. I removed the good front battery. Put the "bad" rear battery in front. Put the battery jumper box in the rear socket. Then plugged in the charge cable. I am getting 2 red flashes followed by 3 red flashes on the dash. According to the manual, this is "Controller Area Network (CAN) Error", contact dealer.
It doesn't seem to be drawing any significant wattage on the Kill-A-Watt, so I suspect there is a battery issue. I'll leave it on the charger overnight and see.
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There's also those little lights on the BMS and the reset button. You might investigate those as well: https://zeromanual.com/wiki/BMS_Reset_Procedure
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There's also those little lights on the BMS and the reset button. You might investigate those as well: https://zeromanual.com/wiki/BMS_Reset_Procedure
No lights on the rear battery. Tried all the reset procedures. Nothing. Will contact the dealer this coming week to see when they can take it in.
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When the battery was crapping out on my 2017 DS under warranty, the most obvious symptom was the MUCH faster charging to full. Less than half the time. Also less than half the range. But charging has less variables, no wind, no hills, unlike when riding, so when a six KWH battery only has 3KWH capacity, it's a lot more obvious and consistent with the charging than by the riding.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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There's also those little lights on the BMS and the reset button. You might investigate those as well: https://zeromanual.com/wiki/BMS_Reset_Procedure
So this post is interesting because:
The dealer finally got around to looking at my FXS in conjunction with a tech at Zero (I guess they can look at the bike logs remotely) and they have come to the conclusion that the BMS board on my bike is bad and needs to be replaced.
Do you know if the BMS is in the battery module itself on the modular FX/FXS? The link above would lead me to believe that it is in the battery module. Is the board that is in the battery a secondary BMS and there is a main BMS on the bike?
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There's also those little lights on the BMS and the reset button. You might investigate those as well: https://zeromanual.com/wiki/BMS_Reset_Procedure
So this post is interesting because:
The dealer finally got around to looking at my FXS in conjunction with a tech at Zero (I guess they can look at the bike logs remotely) and they have come to the conclusion that the BMS board on my bike is bad and needs to be replaced.
Do you know if the BMS is in the battery module itself on the modular FX/FXS? The link above would lead me to believe that it is in the battery module. Is the board that is in the battery a secondary BMS and there is a main BMS on the bike?
BMS stands for Battery Management System and every Zero battery has one. If you have a modular FX, you have two batteries and one BMS per battery. If you have an integrated FX, with one battery, you have one. There are no BMSes outside of a battery.
It sounds like they found that the module voltage was still in a good range, and that the BMS had failed, preventing it from being used.
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There's also those little lights on the BMS and the reset button. You might investigate those as well: https://zeromanual.com/wiki/BMS_Reset_Procedure
So this post is interesting because:
The dealer finally got around to looking at my FXS in conjunction with a tech at Zero (I guess they can look at the bike logs remotely) and they have come to the conclusion that the BMS board on my bike is bad and needs to be replaced.
Do you know if the BMS is in the battery module itself on the modular FX/FXS? The link above would lead me to believe that it is in the battery module. Is the board that is in the battery a secondary BMS and there is a main BMS on the bike?
BMS stands for Battery Management System and every Zero battery has one. If you have a modular FX, you have two batteries and one BMS per battery. If you have an integrated FX, with one battery, you have one. There are no BMSes outside of a battery.
It sounds like they found that the module voltage was still in a good range, and that the BMS had failed, preventing it from being used.
My bike is modular.
This is what I thought. So the dealer says the BMS is going to be replaced. I thought that the BMS inside the battery wasn't dealer replaceable. The parts diagram doesn't show it as an available part. That is why I figured that they would have to replace the entire battery.
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There's also those little lights on the BMS and the reset button. You might investigate those as well: https://zeromanual.com/wiki/BMS_Reset_Procedure
So this post is interesting because:
The dealer finally got around to looking at my FXS in conjunction with a tech at Zero (I guess they can look at the bike logs remotely) and they have come to the conclusion that the BMS board on my bike is bad and needs to be replaced.
Do you know if the BMS is in the battery module itself on the modular FX/FXS? The link above would lead me to believe that it is in the battery module. Is the board that is in the battery a secondary BMS and there is a main BMS on the bike?
BMS stands for Battery Management System and every Zero battery has one. If you have a modular FX, you have two batteries and one BMS per battery. If you have an integrated FX, with one battery, you have one. There are no BMSes outside of a battery.
It sounds like they found that the module voltage was still in a good range, and that the BMS had failed, preventing it from being used.
My bike is modular.
This is what I thought. So the dealer says the BMS is going to be replaced. I thought that the BMS inside the battery wasn't dealer replaceable. The parts diagram doesn't show it as an available part. That is why I figured that they would have to replace the entire battery.
I don't know about the parts diagram you're looking at, but BMSes are designed to be replaced by dealers and are definitely marked as such inthe dealer parts/service manual :)
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I don't know about the parts diagram you're looking at, but BMSes are designed to be replaced by dealers and are definitely marked as such inthe dealer parts/service manual :)
PDF Parts diagram through AF1 Racing:
https://www.af1racing.com/2014-2020-FX-FXS-Spare-Parts-Catalogs
It does show the BMS module cover but not the BMS itself.
EDIT: The 2017 diagram shows the BMS cover twice. Whereas the 2019 diagram shows the BMS cover and the BMS. So I guess Zero changed their process on the BMS replacement.
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The BMS is in the battery. So it looks like you'll get at least one new battery.
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The BMS is in the battery. So it looks like you'll get at least one new battery.
See above edit. It looks like Zero does offer the BMS as a spare part. Looking at the 2016, 2018 and 2019 FXS parts diagram they all show part number 40-08031. But the 2017 parts diagram (what I was looking at since my bike is a 2017) doesn't show that part. Instead, the parts diagram shows the BMS cover (46-08110) twice. Not sure why or if this is just an error in the parts diagram?
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The BMS is in the battery. So it looks like you'll get at least one new battery.
Yeah no, BMS replacement has been distinct from battery replacement all the way back to the first modular bike. So those parts diagrams are either wrong or inaccurate. Either way, he's not getting a new battery unless they say so.
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Yeah no, BMS replacement has been distinct from battery replacement all the way back to the first modular bike. So those parts diagrams are either wrong or inaccurate. Either way, he's not getting a new battery unless they say so.
While getting a new battery would be nice since it would probably be a little larger, as long as the old one has proper capacity I would be OK with it. I assume that once the dealer installs a new BMS in the module, they will verify the capacity. I know I will check it once I get it back from nearly empty to full with a kWh meter. IIRC the single working battery took about 2.4 kWh from empty to full.
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Hi
I have FX 2015 (without ABS) version, something like that happen to me too, the "bad" battery wont do any thing when pressing
the reset not Hard and not soft reset,as my only way of transport & without any dealer at my country for over a year i had to do something, i disassemble the plastic cover and take out for few sec the black connection to the BMS, and the battery came to live, after few weeks had to put something to make the cover force little bit the black connector in, no problem seens then..
Hope it will help you..
Edit: I think its the white connector.. don't remember :)
(https://zeromanual.com/images/thumb/6/6e/BMS_with_potting_large.png/800px-BMS_with_potting_large.png)
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Hi
I have FX 2015 (without ABS) version, something like that happen to me too, the "bad" battery wont do any thing when pressing
the reset not Hard and not soft reset,as my only way of transport & without any dealer at my country for over a year i had to do something, i disassemble the plastic cover and take out for few sec the black connection to the BMS, and the battery came to live, after few weeks had to put something to make the cover force little bit the black connector in, no problem seens then..
Hope it will help you..
Edit: I think its the white connector.. don't remember :)
(https://zeromanual.com/images/thumb/6/6e/BMS_with_potting_large.png/800px-BMS_with_potting_large.png)
I assume if all that was required to get the module working again was just to plug the BMS in a little firmer, then the mechanic would have done that. Instead, they got Zero on the phone (and online I think) to look at the log info. They somehow determined that the BMS on one module was bad but the battery itself was good. Assuming that the dealer didn't have a spare BMS board sitting around to verify that conclusion, I assume that they may have taken the BMS board from the good/working module and swapped it into the non-working module?
Otherwise, maybe they were able to measure the battery condition in some other manner?
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I haven't seen Dealer that disassemble the battery, from my experience (not in the USA) they do "clean work", that mean they avoid try to fix part and go for replace with new, its make sens for safety but its not always needed.
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I haven't seen Dealer that disassemble the battery, from my experience (not in the USA) they do "clean work", that mean they avoid try to fix part and go for replace with new, its make sens for safety but its not always needed.
Well the BMS is a part that can be ordered from Zero according to all the parts diagrams (except the 2017 FXS diagram), so if it can be ordered, it should be a replaceable part by a dealer. Better for Zero than having to replace an entire battery under warranty.
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So I finally got my 2017 FXS 6.5 Modular back this past week. Only after getting Zero to push the dealer along did it finally get looked at, BMS issue found, part ordered and finally installed. 7 weeks total. The dealer took about 4 weeks before they finally looked at it. The BMS was ordered and after a week I emailed Zero to ask if the BMS was shipped. They immediately replied and shipped the BMS to the dealer by UPS Red. Dealer then took 2 weeks to install the part. I've learned that if that dealer tells you they are 3 to 4 weeks out but to bring the bike in right away because they might fit it in, get a solid appointment and bring it in on the day of the appointment. Or perhaps use a different dealer.
This weekend I had the chance to take it out for a longer ride. I did a little riding during the week so I'm not sure how many miles I put on it. But it took about 8 hours to recharge and the two batteries took 5.15 kWh per my Kill-A-Watt meter. I guess that is about a 10% loss from nominal 5.7 capacity.
I also noticed while charging one battery was a bit warmer than the other. My infrared thermometer showed 105 deg F on one battery and 100 deg F on another. The Dell XPS 13 computer that I use also charges at about 100 deg F too. So I guess I'm not too surprised, just curious why one battery is warmer than the other.
The last thing I've noticed is that the BMS logs started with the date 12/31/1969. I am guessing that there is something the dealer didn't do when installing/initializing the BMS. Not sure if it is important or not though.
I am happy that both batteries are now working thanks to the help of the people at Zero and the Zero warranty that covered the BMS.
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That means the internal clock was set to zero.
Not sure where it gets its time, tho.
-Crissa
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Sent the logs to Zero and they say their log reader shows the correct date. Who knows?? Anyway, they also say they didn't see any errors in the logs with the bike. Below are the last 15 or so lines in the BMS log showing the 01/10/1970 date. Apparently my bike has gone back in time. ;)
01359 01/10/1970 00:40:32 Discharge level 001 AH, SOC: 94%, I: -2A, L:4069, l:4060, H:4073, B:004, PT:039C, BT:054C, PV:113997, M:Charge
01360 01/10/1970 00:40:32 SOC:1341,21706,1408,26000,95,94,94,-5
01361 01/10/1970 00:50:32 Discharge level 000 AH, SOC: 96%, I: -2A, L:4089, l:4080, H:4093, B:004, PT:039C, BT:054C, PV:114566, M:Charge
01362 01/10/1970 00:50:32 SOC:894,21736,945,26000,97,96,96,-5
01363 01/10/1970 01:22:46 SOC adjusted for voltage old: 31uAH (soc:100%), new: 0uAH (soc:100%), low cell: 4145 mV
01364 01/10/1970 01:32:54 DEBUG: CAN Link Is Down
01365 01/10/1970 01:32:58 Contactor was Opened Pack V: 115693mV, Switched V: 115672mV, Prechg Pct: 100%, Dischg Cur: 83mA
01366 01/10/1970 01:32:58 DEBUG: CAN Link Is Up
01367 01/10/1970 01:33:03 DEBUG: CAN NOT Receiving Syncs
01368 01/10/1970 01:33:28 Voltage Across Contactor: 42211mV (Okay)
01369 01/10/1970 01:54:38 DEBUG: CAN Receiving Syncs
01370 01/10/1970 01:54:38 Contactor drive turned on Pack V: 115687mV, Switched V: 102400mV, Duty Cycle: 34%
01371 01/10/1970 01:54:38 Contactor was Closed Pack V: 115687mV, Switched V: 102400mV, Prechg Pct: 89%, Dischg Cur: 747mA
01372 01/10/1970 01:54:47 ERROR: 2/1422000 PL536 Read Attempts Failed. Breakdown: conv- 2, (crc,timeout)- 1=(0,0) 2=(0,0) 3=(0,0) 4=(0,0) 5=(0,0)
01373 01/10/1970 01:57:57 SOC adjusted for voltage old: 28uAH (soc:100%), new: 0uAH (soc:100%), low cell: 4142 mV