ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: sharagan on April 10, 2021, 01:15:23 AM
-
Hi everybody,
any idea if this is normal or I should be worried?
https://youtu.be/5pJhugvyFfU
Thanks in advance.
-
Might be a broken wheel bearing. Zero's are notoriously bad. If it is the case it will cost you 100 $ part+work
-
The sound comes from the motor or somewhere near the motor pulley.
-
I would be concerned. I did a quick search and found how to change the bearings.
https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Gen2/Motor_Bearing_Replacement
Or this link in the first one suggesting a loose magnet.
https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8813.0
-
If your bike is still under warranty it would seem like a good time to have your dealer check out that noise. It sounds very odd to me. ???
-
I will definitely go to the dealer with it first thing on Monday, I just bought it new last September. I will post the progress here.
-
How tight is the belt?
-
Probably not related, but it looks like you've got some nasty cracks in the belt? Too tight?
Steve
-
Hi Steve,
I have the manual tension meter and the tension is at 30kg, I check it regularly. The bike has only 1600km (1000 miles).
Should I bring the cracks to the attention of the dealer?
Thanks for the observation.
-
Can it be, that the belt is making those sounds?
-
Maybe you could loosen the belt up some and see if the noise is still the same. Or even pop the belt off the front sprocket completely and try to turn the motor by hand, feeling for any grinding resistance.
-
when loosened or tightened the noise is still there.
when I removed the belt the noise was gone.
from my feeling it still can be the motor bearing as the pressure from the belt affects it or it is generated by the pulley and the belt.
-
when loosened or tightened the noise is still there.
when I removed the belt the noise was gone.
from my feeling it still can be the motor bearing as the pressure from the belt affects it or it is generated by the pulley and the belt.
Perhaps the belt is not aligned on the pulley correctly or the clicking is caused by a deformation of a section of the belt. ???
-
I played around with the alignment again and also the tension....no change at all, no matter the angle or tension. Thanks anyway for the hint.
-
My FXS is still at the dealer, the reply from Zero according to my dealer states that the noises are completely normal.
...and I have the feeling that this will be the case until the warranty is valid....
-
I replaced my rear tire last Saturday. I thought I had the belt aligned properly, with a 1mm gap between the belt and the flange. But after riding the bike for 40 miles I was feeling a vibration through the handlebars that I hadn't felt previously. So I rechecked the belt position and discovered that it had moved over that 1mm and was now rubbing slightly against the flange. Time to make another adjustment again. ;) Let vibrations be your guide to belt condition and setup. :)
-
I was checking the belt tension every week with the gates cricket tool, I tried loosening and also tightening it, but the clicking sound was always present. I have never heard such a clicking sound from another Zero. The statement that it is completely normal is very strange to me, not to mention the cracks in the belt.
-
The warranty applies to the date you reported the failure, not the date they discovered it.
-Crissa
-
I meant that it will be declared normal as it still runs even though it makes strange noises because it is under warranty.
-
Even if it fails after the warranty, you reported the damage before it expired. The date you reported it to them counts, not the date it fails or diagnose it.
-Crissa
-
Hi all,
the dealer is trying to convince me that the crackling sound is caused by the carbon fiber construction of the belt and completely normal (also the cracks). Bike is still at the dealer. Could maybe someone with an FXS record the sound of the motor pulley when rotating the wheel with the bike turned off, so that I can see if it is really normal or show them some proof, that it is not normal at all and have them investigate it properly.
Thanks in advance.
-
If your dealer says that the belt is causing the noise and is "normal", then they should put a new belt on to back that notion with evidence.
Here is my experience with bad motor bearing noises. A popping sound that matches the RPMs, this seems to be a single ball or spot within the bearing, indicates a defect from the bearing manufacturer. A grinding sound from dirt intrusion into the outer bearing (just behind the front sprocket).
https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=10880.0
Ride On, red clay
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfxcc-LkrBw
-
My 2017 SR has made a sound very similar to the OP’s since new.
-
Hi everyone,
new belt was fitted in July, at first there was no crackling sound nore cracks in the outer layer, after 1500km same situation. Tension is at 25 to 30 kg on the krikit tool from the beginning. One dealer says it is normal, other dealer says that there is nothing they can do. Any ideas?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtSr6LXXW6c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtSr6LXXW6c)
-
That does seem weird.
-Crissa
-
Have exactly the same on my SR2017.
Also, after changing to a new belt and pulley.
(Belt tension at lower limit.)
I can hear the cracks by moving,- pressing the old belt in my hands. It comes really out of the belt.
But, it semms the new belt has it, too !?
Something wrong with some belts!?!
I can hear the crackling specially during BRAKING and REGEN.
That's not nice and very annoying.
Zero promissed me a silent bike...
-
The noise is annoying, but my main concern is that it is a symptom of a failing belt which might break any time.
How many miles did you make already since the crackling started?
What if it is caused by some kind of misalignment in the drive train and not by a faulty batch of belts?
My FXS is one year old and has 3000 km (1800 miles) and this is already the 2nd belt with the same crackling sound, which developed over time together with deep visible cracks on the outside.
Unfortunately, this is only one of more issues, none of which Zero wants to acknowledge....
-
new belt was fitted in July, at first there was no crackling sound nore cracks in the outer layer, after 1500km same situation. Tension is at 25 to 30 kg on the krikit tool from the beginning. One dealer says it is normal, other dealer says that there is nothing they can do. Any ideas?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtSr6LXXW6c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtSr6LXXW6c)
In the very last few frames (0:33) of the video, it looks like the belt is cracked clear across, isn't it? That's absolutely not normal and no dealer can tell you it is. Do you often ride a section of gravel road?
Also, I would not be at all surprised if there was a batch of bad belts, similar to that batch of spoke-breaking front wheels on the 2016's.
-
the motorcycle hasn't seen gravel and I haven't given it even full throttle for the last 1500km since I have the new belt as I wanted to be sure that it is not my fault. Yes, the belt has cracks across on multiple spots, which appeared already after the first 100km. The new belt is from a completely different dealer and fitted July this year. The old belt was from the factory and the bike is from early last year. I am also not willing to accept that this is normal.
-
How tight is the belt?
Present belt tension is not what I was asking but rather the tension at the time of discovery.
Excessive belt tension can/will damage bearings.
Surface cracks on every one of my numerous belts (60+k miles) is an expectation as the outside has to expand going around the sheaves (pulleys).
The way I see it the outside “skin” merely protects the load bearing cords.
Make sure there is nothing stuck in the teeth of the sheaves (unlikely but has to be ruled out).
-
I agree, that is a mystery of a sound. From my experience the belt can go a long way with cracks in the outer layer. Try this: New belts make a strange squeaking sound that can be remedied by applying 100% silicone liquid (treadmill lubricant) to the inside of the belt. The silence of silicone.
Ride On, Red Clay
-
I keep the belt clean and checked the tension after every ride. I contacted the tech support of Gates and was told that the crackling noises are not normal. I passed this information to the dealer and still no change in attitude. I contacted Zero customer support, also no change.
After the second belt developed the same symptoms as the first one I started another round of emails to the dealer and also Zero Europe....no change yet.
Offtopic: And I am in the same situation with them regarding deformed tires causing vibrations when riding (after a year I changed them myself), an untrue front wheel affecting the front brake disc, the front wheel has a dent (which was apparently just painted over), squealing back brake and other issues. Either they claim it is within tolerance or normal or not observed.
-
Sounds like you need a dealer that will listen to your problems. Also that you're kinda picky ^-^
-Crissa
-
what more can the dealer do than listen if the people above them say no. Either I am picky or just used to riding also other motorcycles ;)
I had an electric KTM for 6 years before this Zero and had zero problems (pun intended)...just charging and riding it daily as a commuter with a smile on my face.
-
Sharagan, your belt looks worse than my 2013 with 43k miles. I see a thumb print sized scuff early in your video. The fading looks like it's lived out in the weather which isn't good.
The sound on the video is doing a great imitation of bad bearings. Take the whole belt off and turn the motor with the power off and see what it sounds like.
See if it's motor or belt. You should be able to feel the grit in the pulley if it's the bearing by just hand turning.
As for my belt tension, when I pluck the middle section it makes a middle thud. Not spongy and not a guitar string higher pitch twang.
For what that's worth.
The one other thing I'd advise in the future is both have the belt so that it rides 1mm from the left sprocket edge, and get a good torque wrench and tighten that axial bolt down to exactly what they tell you in the manual. My DS is 75 ft lbs not sure of the FXS's torque.
The tension adjustment bolts only keep the wheel from sliding forward and letting the belt droop off. It's the tension of the axial nut that keeps it from sliding backward and tightening the belt further.
The gen 3 bikes have the adjusting bolts at the rear of the axial. I wonder why?
-
As already written in post #15, I have the same crackling.
As written, it seems it's the belt itself.
Cannot feel and hear any bearing damage with belt off.
Off topic, but by the way, the rear axis/tension adjustment is poor and bad by design, Zero should fire the mechanical engineers... :-)
Speacially on the right side, I have observed, the axis is moving inside the hole of the Tension adjustment block.
That hole is just at least 0.5mm too big! The axis has correct torque (100Nm). After adjusting the belt, pulling the axis (100Nm), and doing a first hard rear brake, the axis is moving inside the hole, caused by the force of the brake disc... and with that movement, at the end the belt is missaligned again.
(Also think, with hard accelerations and hard braking, the axis is moving always in the hole by +-0.5mm!)
Now, I am working on selfmade more accurate tension blocks...
Just frustrated with that on that expensive bike.
-
Same here, there is no crackling sound on the motor pulley with no belt on it and the old belt does crackle even when moving around in my hands.
I have also noticed the gap on the adjuster, that perfectly explains the following situation:
I adjust the belt to be in the center of the wheel pulley. I torque it down to 100Nm it stays where it is, even when spinning the wheel or turning the bike on and spinning it with the motor on the back paddock stand, but after I ride it even for 5 minutes the belt is at the flange again.
Also it is strange that for the belt to leave a credit card wide gap (0.8mm) to the flange the wheel has to be misaligned in the swingarm (visible by the naked eye).
I completely share your frustration, for that money I would expect this basic bike with no extra features, crude suspension and weak brakes to be at least built properly.
-
If the belt is moving to the flange on the rear sprocket then most likely the left side adjustment bolt is too far forward or the right side is too far back.
The markings on the side adjustment plates may not be exact but they are pretty close. Once they are at the same notch approximately, then tighten your axial nut and ride it.
If it rides up the flange, the right side has to go forward (a tiny tiny turn) hold the adjustment bolt in place with one wrench while tightening the locking nut.
Torque the axial nut down and try it again.
Check the sprocket bolts to ensure they are equally tightened. If the bike is lifted off the ground hold that stick you used to check the true of the wheel to the sprocket against the swing arm.
If you feel the rear is all true there is a less likely option that the motor is off center.
Bottom line is it should be able to be ridden with the 1mm gap to the sprocket flange.
-
Hello,
As written, The thing is here, I can align the belt, but after a short ride the alignment gets lost cause of the axis movement.
So, exactly tweaking at the end helps nothing.
I have the same here, if I align the belt "CreditCard" from sprocket lip, the complete wheel is disaligned. Can see with only my eyes, too. And I can feel it during driving curves...
Sprockt is checked, bolts are new, Pulley is also new.
What does it mean the "motor is off center" ? Is there any chance to adjust the motor better? It seems the motor has a fixed position, given by the 4 screws on the left side!?
Thanks for any help here...
-
Like I said it much less likely but there are the 4 bolts on the right side of the motor. There isn't much play on those short threads but it's possible to be off.
Going off my DS, when the belt is setup correctly, and the axial nut is torqued to 75 ft lbs, and the spacers are in and the left side axial stop is flush up against the adjustment plate, then the axial does not move.
Look to see that both of your adjustment plate notches are the same on both sides compared to the swing arm notch. they might be off a tiny bit but again they should be close.
-
Thanks for the hints.
The sprocket is torqued down to the wheel with 35Nm, so ok.
The sprocket is completely true, no issue there.
The spacers on the right side of the motor all have 3,2mm between the adjusting nut and the round shaft touching the motor (the space where the thread is visible).
I am not sure how I could measure the motor sprocket/pulley alignment to the belt as there is no space due to the swingarm....will look for a way.
-
The gen 3 bikes have the adjusting bolts at the rear of the axial. I wonder why?
My guess is to counteract the axles tendency to rotate clockwise as the belt only exerts torque to the left side.
Here’s my belt notes that have come from ownership/servicing of a 2016 DSR..
2016 DSR (thin belt) 20/30kg tension (using Krikit belt tension gauge).
Jacking left screw(bolt) out (adding tension) moves the belt to the right on the rear sheave/sprocket.
Jacking right screw(bolt) out moves the belt to the left.
NOTE: Position belt with a right side bias as it will shift to the left when the axle bolt is tightened.
This movement to the left is approx 1/16”-1/8” on my bike (yours might vary).
After making an adjustment to a jack screw, must pry right side of wheel forward (or smack it to the right from the back side) to “set” the adjustment as the belt tension on the sheave will pivot the axle ClockWise...........
(In my opinion, the right jack screw SHOULD be located 180° & push the axle CCW thus countering the Left jack screw CW effect on the Sheave/Belt/Axle. )
NOTE: 1/6 turn of Left jack screw causes a 10KG difference to belt tension.
Best to get the belt/sheave alignment sorted first, then go for proper tension.
I shoot for the greatest tension (30kg).
If you don’t have the correct Metric socket (like me), use a 1-1/16” to tension the axle nut to 102NM (75#’).
Recommend first removing the jack bolts & grinding or filing off the markings so it’s smooth & will not gouge the soft aluminum swing arm.
Put a dab of Anti-seize or heavy grease on the jack bolt threads while your at it.
A few other thoughts.....
Excessive belt tension is not good on bearings & the thicker belt has a higher tension spec then the thin one.
I’m not sure where the best tension point would be on the thick belt, but I would stay towards the lower end yielding about the same as the max thin belt (30kg) unless the bearings were upgraded & can withstand greater belt tension.
I use a mechanical tension checking device (Gates 91107 Belt Tension Tester) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000MUTAGS/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glc_fabc_23M6C0PXQW8W3RV5GE9W and check several locations of the rear sheave/sprocket in case it’s slightly out of round (different run outs will yield different belt tension readings).
A hexagon fastener has 6 sides so one flat (1/6 full turn) of the LEFT bolt will yield a 10kg change in belt tension.
Must make sure there is a gap (credit card or greater) between the belt & the left hand lip on the sheave/sprocket).
-
I got myself a belt alignment laser tool and after extensive fiddling around I have the following findings.
When aligning the wheel with the swingarm the back pulley is aligned with the belt, this is good news.
The motor pulley is also aligned with the belt perfectly and the belt is in the middle of the motor pulley.
BUT the belt is completely shifted to the left, so at the lip.
When I adjust everything to have the credit card gap to the lip, then the wheel is misaligned with the swingarm (1.6mm difference between the adjusting blocks) and also the back pulley is severely out of alignment with the belt according to the tool.
One observation that I made with this setting: when accelerating, the belt will travel to the right and when going off the "gas" and the wheel starts slowing down again it will go back to its original position (1mm of the lip). This does not happen when the pulley and belt are aligned.
Summary: when pulley and belt are aligned, the belt is at the lip. With the 1mm gap, everything is out of alignment.
Is maybe the wheel wrongly positioned on the axle?
Could somebody please measure their spacer between the wheel and the swingarm on the pulley side if by any chance a wrong part was fitted during production on my bike?
Thanks in advance.
-
adding photos
the left side has 4.6mm between the wheel and the swingarm
https://imgur.com/NxFSPmV
this is the right side
https://imgur.com/4wIeaeK
Does everything look ok or is maybe something missing or wrongly fitted?
Thanks.
-
I'm diving into the pool to try to help.
Sharagan, concerning the "out of alignment", have you adjusted the motor mount bolts? This centers the belt on the front (motor) sprocket. If not, are the motor mount bolts snug?
-
Hi Red Clay,
thanks for the suggestion. Yes, the belt runs perfectly centered on the motor pulley and I even managed to check the alignment also of that pulley with the laser, all good there.
With everything centered and aligned, the belt simply runs at the lip with no teeth visible between the belt and the lip of the wheel pulley.
The only thing I can think of at the is point is axial offset....should I try to put spacers between the pulley and the wheel?
regards
-
Don't narrow to "only" because there could be more than one thing wrong.
These belts are finicky and each person has developed their own method of dealing with the madness. I stop at "almost" centered, then, off the stand and after some torque: centered. Learning this took a lot of stopping and re-adjusting.
Are you able to ride, adjust, ride etc, until it centers?
Axial offset?? Note that the wheel runs on the combination of 5 pieces: left spacer, two inner bearing rings, inner spacer, and mpi spacer; all pinched together by the axle bolt. The axle bolt has play inside of the spacers to enable removal of the bolt. At times, the 5 pieces "settle" out of alignment when you apply torque.
I would not add more spacers.
Are your swingarm bearings in good condition?
There are not many pieces to this puzzle.
Hope this helps.
-
@ sharagan
I have exactley the same situation.
And, the crackling sound :-)
I have new swingarm bearings, new pulley and new belt. And evereything double checked and originally at the rear axis.
Still the same with the new parts.
In the meantime I think, it's may not correct and not necessarry, to align the belt 1 Creditcard from lip. Maybe, all people who are doing that drive with an unaligned wheel/bike!?!?
For, me it's now more important to align the wheel... doesn't matter if belt is running at the lip.
(I also have tried for a test to mount the rear sprocket 1.5mm to the left, with some washers between wheel and sprocket. Still the same. This belt is moving still always to the left to the lip of sprocket.)
The only idea left is motor adjusting within the frame...
Is there a zero procedure how to mount/adjust the motor?
-
My experience is with a 2019 FX.
There is no procedure from Zero, known to me, on how to mount/adjust the motor. My suggestion is to sit down and study the mounts. On the left, the motor is attached snug to aluminum brackets. On the right, there are 4 adjusting bolts. Mark one that is easy to get to and remove it, learn how it works then put it back like it was. Nothing will fall apart.
The belt is centered on the front sprocket by adjusting the motor mounts. To move the belt left on the front sprocket: loosen the two right rear motor mount bolts, turn the big silver adjusters in slightly (1/4 turn), retighten the bolts. Check it and repeat if needed. After tightening the back twice, consider next extending the two right front adjusters (slighty).
Visa versa to move the belt to the right on the front sprocket.
Don't extend the two right rear adjusters too far or the motor mount will conflict with the swingarm.
The left motor mounts are fixed and the adjustments to the right motor mounts should not be extreme.
Usually, after each small motor mount adjustment, a wheel adjustment is necessary.
This truly makes the motorcycle run smoother and more quietly........after the loud cursing.
Hope this helps.
-
Thank you guys for your input, much appreciated.
I do not want to mess around with the motor, according to the laser alignment tool I have it is perfectly in line with the belt and the belt runs centered.
The belt did not run in the middle of the motor pulley only when I misaligned the wheel to have that 1mm gap from the wheel pulley lip.
My next step would also be the washers, but I fear that it would not have any effect as the belt is already bedded in. It would have to be done with a completely new belt I suppose.
But I might try the washers just for the experiment, who knows, maybe it will work. I will definitely report back with my findings.
PS. either it is really supposed to run at the lip or a curious miscalculation that when the wheel is exactly true with the swingarm to 0.1mm also the belt is aligned with the pulley.
if only the user manual would have instructions and recommendations like a real user manual.
But the crackling sound from the belt is making me crazy, it is so rare and I already have it on my second belt, both started crackling after a month (sign of premature wear?).
-
Yeah, makes me crazy, too.
It sounds always like sticking on a clue tape, during braking...
I am wondering, if only you and me had that crackling sound?
It will be may the reason to sell the zero soon, thinking about.
It's not the expirience of silent driving, as promissed by zero.
Also 2 dealers here have no idea anymore.
(Option would be a chain, so at least I know where the sound cames from :-) )
May, should we compare belt numbers, printed on the belt?
May, should we try a third belt!?
Anybody else has that crackling sound?
-
Anybody else has that crackling sound?
I don’t know as I wear earplugs.
-
Here my belt numbers, the last digits are not printed, they are barely visible as they are pushed into the rubber...hold the light at an angle to see it.
First 30-08278 PAT9944763 235H
Second 30-08278 PAT9944763 023J
...the crackling sound is audible when pushing the bike around at the motor pulley as it bends there more agressively
-
and a picture of the first belt, how it looks after 1500km
you can clearly see how the outside rubber is cracked completely to the support structure.
some strands of the carbon fibers are loose and just sticking to the side, but not sure it is visible on the picture
https://imgur.com/hepjDGj
Do the teeth of the belt look like they were pushing onto the lip of the wheel pulley?