ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: NervEasy on March 21, 2021, 10:49:48 PM
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Hi,
I ha a bit of a think and I am curious about the following situations:
Situation 1:
Imagine a SR/S or SR/F Premium with the 2, 3kW chargers. One on phase 1 and the other on phase 2 of the charge plug. What would happen if you would connect the phase 1 pin to phase 2 pin inside the charge connector of the charge cable. Effectivly putting monophase power on 2 phase pins and charge of a monophase EVSE charger. So both chargers get electricity from the only phase available and then the monophase EVSE equipment controls the pilot signal. For example this thing: https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/33043228434.html?spm=a2g0n.detail.0.0.11e371f1v2B53Y&gps-id=storeRecommendH5&scm=1007.18500.187585.0&scm_id=1007.18500.187585.0&scm-url=1007.18500.187585.0&pvid=4f22668d-a68e-4b0b-be1e-2c84db761f4e&_t=gps-id%3AstoreRecommendH5%2Cscm-url%3A1007.18500.187585.0%2Cpvid%3A4f22668d-a68e-4b0b-be1e-2c84db761f4e%2Ctpp_buckets%3A668%230%23131923%2362_668%230%23131923%2362_668%23888%233325%2319_668%23888%233325%2319_668%232846%238111%231996_668%232717%237566%23828__668%233374%2315176%23414_668%232846%238111%231996_668%232717%237566%23828_668%233164%239976%23124_668%233374%2315176%23414&browser_id=2cf26bd6148c4667bec2acba22eba91e&aff_trace_key&aff_platform=msite&m_page_id=001178509c9a0821c2d95eaf70e98e61579ba542f4&gclid&fbclid=IwAR1rkoFWWx-XT7g3uxYQth9mKeWEvFrShT05OFI8mcS7L3ICfhDsGGclBmc (https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/33043228434.html?spm=a2g0n.detail.0.0.11e371f1v2B53Y&gps-id=storeRecommendH5&scm=1007.18500.187585.0&scm_id=1007.18500.187585.0&scm-url=1007.18500.187585.0&pvid=4f22668d-a68e-4b0b-be1e-2c84db761f4e&_t=gps-id%3AstoreRecommendH5%2Cscm-url%3A1007.18500.187585.0%2Cpvid%3A4f22668d-a68e-4b0b-be1e-2c84db761f4e%2Ctpp_buckets%3A668%230%23131923%2362_668%230%23131923%2362_668%23888%233325%2319_668%23888%233325%2319_668%232846%238111%231996_668%232717%237566%23828__668%233374%2315176%23414_668%232846%238111%231996_668%232717%237566%23828_668%233164%239976%23124_668%233374%2315176%23414&browser_id=2cf26bd6148c4667bec2acba22eba91e&aff_trace_key&aff_platform=msite&m_page_id=001178509c9a0821c2d95eaf70e98e61579ba542f4&gclid&fbclid=IwAR1rkoFWWx-XT7g3uxYQth9mKeWEvFrShT05OFI8mcS7L3ICfhDsGGclBmc)
Would this work??
Situation 2:
Imagine a SR/S or SR/F Premium with the 2, 3kW chargers and the extra 6kW charger option. One on phase 1, the other on phase 2 and the Chargetank on phase 3 of the charge plug.
If you would change the order of the phases in the charge connector of the charge cable as follows: Normal order: 123, new order: 312.
So when you plug in a monophase EVSE it's connected to the Chargetank instead of the first 3kw charger. And then use the aforementioned mono phase EVSE.
Would this work?
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I think it all comes down to the amount of current you can draw from your wall or charge point.
16A x 230V = 3680W
I am not sure how many amps you can draw from a charge point.
22kW / 230V = 96A
which is 32A per phase.
I assume charge points are either 32A per phase resulting in 22kW
or 16A per phase resulting in 11kW.
i dont think it matters which charger is connected to which phase pin, as long as you are able to supply the current
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So yeah, that is why it’s just hypothetical. Here in belgium you can stretch a wall outlet to 20A at 230v. But there are other higher amp plugs available.
So my biggest question is will the bike be happy having 1 phase connected to 2 pins ??. They will not be out of phase as with a normal 3 phase connection.
And also if you just plug in the charge tank. So no power to either 3kW. Will the bike accept a charge or does it need the first charger to be ative to have the charge tank active?
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How do the J1772 pins work to deliver 6-7KW in the US?
Cas :)
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I did not know that in the US the newer bikes still have a J1772 port. These are one phase only. No pins for more phases... So all charges will be in parallel I think?
Really curious about this.
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Still? The US doesn't have another AC standard beyond the J-plugs.
-Crissa
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Still? The US doesn't have another AC standard beyond the J-plugs.
-Crissa
Tesla Destination stations are often preferred over J-1772. Tesla AC stations can usually support a lot more than J1772. 16KW (66.666666 amps @ 240 VAC) is fairly common. (https://www.plugshare.com/location/113009)
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Tesla isn't a standard. No one but Tesla uses them.
-Crissa
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Tesla isn't a standard. No one but Tesla uses them.
-Crissa
I have used Tesla Destination stations on both of my Zeros as well as on my Energica.
It's only the DC Superchargers that nobody else can use.
Just need an adapter and it is as good or better than a J-1772 for any vehicle that can use a J-1772.
Better, when you need more power. None of the J-1772's can do 16KW like the Tesla can.
With my SR, I can charge on the road at 8KW with any Tesla Destination station. Not many J-1772's can do a full 8 KW.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I'll repeat my statement. Does anyone else make them?
Tesla isn't a standard. No one but Tesla uses them.
-Crissa
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I'll repeat my statement. Does anyone else make them?-Crissa
I don't know who makes them for Tesla nor do I care. Only what EVs can use them is important--and the answer to that is all of them, just as with J-1772.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Hi,
I ha a bit of a think and I am curious about the following situations:
Situation 1:
Imagine a SR/S or SR/F Premium with the 2, 3kW chargers. One on phase 1 and the other on phase 2 of the charge plug. What would happen if you would connect the phase 1 pin to phase 2 pin inside the charge connector of the charge cable. Effectivly putting monophase power on 2 phase pins and charge of a monophase EVSE charger. So both chargers get electricity from the only phase available and then the monophase EVSE equipment controls the pilot signal. For example this thing: https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/33043228434.html?spm=a2g0n.detail.0.0.11e371f1v2B53Y&gps-id=storeRecommendH5&scm=1007.18500.187585.0&scm_id=1007.18500.187585.0&scm-url=1007.18500.187585.0&pvid=4f22668d-a68e-4b0b-be1e-2c84db761f4e&_t=gps-id%3AstoreRecommendH5%2Cscm-url%3A1007.18500.187585.0%2Cpvid%3A4f22668d-a68e-4b0b-be1e-2c84db761f4e%2Ctpp_buckets%3A668%230%23131923%2362_668%230%23131923%2362_668%23888%233325%2319_668%23888%233325%2319_668%232846%238111%231996_668%232717%237566%23828__668%233374%2315176%23414_668%232846%238111%231996_668%232717%237566%23828_668%233164%239976%23124_668%233374%2315176%23414&browser_id=2cf26bd6148c4667bec2acba22eba91e&aff_trace_key&aff_platform=msite&m_page_id=001178509c9a0821c2d95eaf70e98e61579ba542f4&gclid&fbclid=IwAR1rkoFWWx-XT7g3uxYQth9mKeWEvFrShT05OFI8mcS7L3ICfhDsGGclBmc (https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/33043228434.html?spm=a2g0n.detail.0.0.11e371f1v2B53Y&gps-id=storeRecommendH5&scm=1007.18500.187585.0&scm_id=1007.18500.187585.0&scm-url=1007.18500.187585.0&pvid=4f22668d-a68e-4b0b-be1e-2c84db761f4e&_t=gps-id%3AstoreRecommendH5%2Cscm-url%3A1007.18500.187585.0%2Cpvid%3A4f22668d-a68e-4b0b-be1e-2c84db761f4e%2Ctpp_buckets%3A668%230%23131923%2362_668%230%23131923%2362_668%23888%233325%2319_668%23888%233325%2319_668%232846%238111%231996_668%232717%237566%23828__668%233374%2315176%23414_668%232846%238111%231996_668%232717%237566%23828_668%233164%239976%23124_668%233374%2315176%23414&browser_id=2cf26bd6148c4667bec2acba22eba91e&aff_trace_key&aff_platform=msite&m_page_id=001178509c9a0821c2d95eaf70e98e61579ba542f4&gclid&fbclid=IwAR1rkoFWWx-XT7g3uxYQth9mKeWEvFrShT05OFI8mcS7L3ICfhDsGGclBmc)
Would this work??
Situation 2:
Imagine a SR/S or SR/F Premium with the 2, 3kW chargers and the extra 6kW charger option. One on phase 1, the other on phase 2 and the Chargetank on phase 3 of the charge plug.
If you would change the order of the phases in the charge connector of the charge cable as follows: Normal order: 123, new order: 312.
So when you plug in a monophase EVSE it's connected to the Chargetank instead of the first 3kw charger. And then use the aforementioned mono phase EVSE.
Would this work?
#1
I don't see a problem with this, I believe the bike determines charging current by looking at which chargers have power and what models are active on CAN. Obviously you can't connect two phases to one charger(bad things would happen) but this could work. The bike might handle this by itself. I'd take a look what happens if you ever plug a three phase connector in though. Depending on how you do it, if the second phase pin gets connected to the first phase pin from your previous single phase charge, bad things would happen.You'd have to always be sure the two phases aren't linked before you plug in.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-phase_electric_power
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cc/3_phase_AC_waveform.svg/1920px-3_phase_AC_waveform.svg.png
#2
This could work too, and might be better. It might depend on how Zero determines the current limits from the common pilot signal. Obviously be careful whatever switching mechanism gets built can handle the power load, which is probably fairly difficult to do automatically but might be easy to do manually with some kind of connectors. At least with this option, there is no possibility of connecting phases :)
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Hi Auriga,
I would not alter the bike in any way. All changes would happen in the charge cable.
So for example a special cable that connects a monophase socket to bot phase 1 and phase 2 pins. So when plugged in the bike will receive power on both chargers from a monophase connection. (Which it standard won’t do).
But I do not know if Zero checks phase shift on the input or something else that can mess with this approach.
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Hi Auriga,
I would not alter the bike in any way. All changes would happen in the charge cable.
So for example a special cable that connects a monophase socket to bot phase 1 and phase 2 pins. So when plugged in the bike will receive power on both chargers from a monophase connection. (Which it standard won’t do).
But I do not know if Zero checks phase shift on the input or something else that can mess with this approach.
That should be fine. Each charger is isolated in the EU setup, it won't matter the phase of the incoming AC. There's not really a reason to check for phase shift, so I really doubt the ywould implement it. There is only one pilot signal for all three phases, so as long as the correct number of chargers have ac input to match the expected charge rate, I think you'll be fine. But only Zero will know for sure, you'd have to try it.
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So I tried connecting L1 and L2 inside my 16Amp monofase EVSE.
At first the bike happily ramps up the current using both chargers.
But it seems to double the set current of the EVSE and then everything shut's down because the EVSE hardware sees that to much current is pulled.
For example If I set my EVSE at an 8A limit it pulls 16A and a few seconds of that and it error's out. Same for the 10A, 13A, and 16A settings of my EVSE. Which is weird because the control signal should be absolute right? Not relative, as in I can supply 8A and the bike should use/throttle it's chargers to meet this number?. This is weird right? Shouldn't the bike throttle one charger and use the other one to it's max?
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Really tough to say. The next step for you I think is to build an MBB serial cable and issue the charging command. You should be able to see the pilot signal and which chargers are active and what the bike thinks the limit should be.
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I have such a cable. What command should I use to see this data?
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Not quite following why you need MBB. Whats wrong with the displayed amps into the battery? It measures into the battery, so doesnt care about which charger it comes from.
I agree with Auriga, what you did by joining L1 and L2 in the cable is fine, as long as you have the supply current. The phasing is lost in the chargers anyway.
But what you ask about the control sequence I can only add my findings:
The PP line gives the bike and charging point information about the current limit for the cable, by using a particular value of resistor at either end of the cable, connecting that connectors PP pin to earth. This is used at both ends to limit the current, at both ends. Typical values are 16A and 32A cable rating and this is per phase, so 3 phase cable has this same limit but on each of three phases.
The CP line is a signal sent using a 1 kHz voltage signal ranging between 12 and -12v (cant remember). Different voltages indicate various states of readiness fro charging, and the value is used to control the current, eg as the current slows as you top off.
I have some of the simple circuits from the ISO standard for EV charging if you're interested.
I have a SRF with the rapid charger, so I have 3kW, 3kW, and 6kW chargers. I have made a cable to fit under my seat with two ends: a single phase Uk plug, and a three phase Type 2 connector, all permanently connected to the Type2 socket on the bike with a low profile socket head designed as a 3d printable item by Remmie. (wish I knew how to do references on this forum)
I have often thought, whilst rolling up to a 7kW charge point, that if I could swap the pins in the plug around, I could probably get 6kW out of these charge points, rather than 3kW, as the standard type2 plug seems to default to L1 on single phase. Not found a simple way to do it yet.
There's a lot on this forum, but nut under Zero, under Hacks, under "PP and CP control" mentioned earlier. I put my cable design in there.
Let us know how you get on. pete
*mod edit* assist with reference:
+ PP and CP control on a type 2 charger cable (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=10365.0)
+ SRF charging in EU/UK - how many phases? (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=10796)
+ SRF SRS 3 kW chargers how controlled? (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=10803)
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I believe the command is either charging or chargers
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Zero configured the chargers to each be on a separate phase. So if the MBB receives an 8A command from the EVSE, it will send "you can charge at 8A (input)power" to EACH charger.
Because you connected both chargers to L1 (which zero didn't anticipate) they will both receive power and draw 8A, so together they will draw 16A and the EVSE trips because of the excessive current.
There are only 2 ways this is going to work.
1) If your supply AND EVSE can handle at least 26A (preferably 32A) on that single phase. Then both chargers will top out at 13A and the bike will charge at 5.8 kW. but then there is no way of setting the charge level. It will always be flat out at 5.8 kW.
2) Set the EVSE at a specific current, pick up the PWM signal and send a different PWM signal, effectively halving the advertised current. So if you only want to draw 12 amps from the socket you have to pick up the (12A) PWM signal and send a 6A signal. Then both chargers will receive a 6A signal from the EVSE/MBB and charge at that 6A (EACH). You can't go lower than 12A because the standard doesn't allow for an advertised current lower than 6A.
So an 8A draw from the socket from 2 chargers is not possible (by advertising only 4A) unless Zero allows lower amps from the EVSE than 6A (I have not tried that....yet)
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Hi Remmie thanks for the clarification.
The second option should be possible with an 8A or 10A max. As my goals was 16-20A charging current at the socket (it is capable of that).
I guess I will have to check the OpenEVSE source code to see if I can halve the PWM duty cycle easily and flash a custom firmware to the Open EVSE hardware.
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Or a dirty hack to check if this works would be to open my EVSE hardware see where the current sensing coil output is fed to the microcontroller ADC pin and place a voltage divider (50%)??