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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Red Clay on March 08, 2021, 08:26:49 AM
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I've been testing the FX for over a year now. While the motorcycle shines in so many ways, there are weak points.
Here is one: The only thing that stands between the motor bearings (directly behind the drive sprocket) and the elements is a simple and inadequate bearing seal (pictured below), which can be removed with a small screwdriver. This seal does not work as a barrier against dirt and water. An oil seal or dust shield seems important even though it would have to allow room for the snap ring that is on the drive shaft.
What do the experts think? Ever seen a solution for this?
Ride On, Red Clay
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https://youtu.be/hfxcc-LkrBw
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Nice fixture you built there to do the job. I just hope I never have to do this to my FXS. Not like it is going to be riding through a lot of dirt though. And I hope the replacement bearings are sealed better.
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Great job with the video Red.
I see your putting those FX's to work. Hope the Motorcycle touring venture is working out for you.
Shame it isn't sealed better but it's still a small young company.
One question though. Is the inside shaft spline already internally threaded or did you cut those in as well?
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new2elec. I'm not sure if I understand the question. Maybe this? the spline shaft is threaded about 1 inch deep, 10mm allthread, thread pitch is 1.5
I'm thrilled! Our motorcycle motors only have two bearings! and now we know how to get at them!
The engineering, design and function of zero's FX impresses me. I've (with help from friends) thrown it into the mud and crud to learn the weak spots: motor and swingarm bearings. Small price to pay for so much fun. The motorcycle really is quite easy to work on.
A seal solution is possible and probable, need a 50mm x 33mm x 10 or 12mm and either goo it on with silicone or make a (screwed on) plate that will hold it.
Thanks for the input.
Fixing it so we can Ride On, Red Clay
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Yep that was what I was asking, thanks.
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Appreciate the video. Just a few comments.
Somewhere I heard hitting magnets with a hammer made them weaker. You were not directly hitting the magnets but kind of indirectly. Exactly how long and strong a magnet is something I really don't know a lot about. These magnets are likely not Iron. I think an electric heat gun would get the aluminum parts hot enough to not need to pound.
I note there is no swingarm pivot bolt, the bearing is in the frame and the swingarm is threaded. You will see how it holds up.
Did you think of packing the new bearings with salt water proof grease? If there is space to fit an essentially glued on seal that would be fine. The 80's Husqvarna bikes did not have a seal at that spot just a sealed bearing with no seal on the transmission side, there was a plastic or nylon spacer and sprocket held on with just a clip and really not too much problem there until there were basically problems in lots of places.
For the 6xx6 ball or deep grove bearings a 30mm bore size
Minute 6:54 60062rs Timken
6006 is what ultra light series?
6206 light series
6306 "standard size"?
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Thanks Fran,
There's not much information out there on this subject. Glad to share...and thanks to Travis.
A hydraulic press will replace the hammer. Till then, determination and brute force; applied carefully.
Never heard of weakening magnets. Interesting, I'll have to research that.
An electric heat gun might work. I pointed the heat at the inner part of the bearing, it is in direct contact with the main shaft. The heat needs to be acute and hot enough to also melt the locktite.
I don't understand the note about the pivot bolt. There is no swingarm in the video. As far as how it holds up: the swingarm bearings suffer the same as the motor bearing because of a lack of protection beyond the factory bearing seal.
Great input on the grease. Factory grease is not worthy. I pack bearings with Bel-Ray waterproof bearing grease.
I did not know about the husqua spacer, good concept. The issue on the zero is that the outside clip spins with the motor and there needs to be room allowed on the inside of the seal for the spinning clip.
timken 6006-2RS is 30mm x 55mm x 13mm - (2)two (R)ubber (S)eal This will fit.
6206 is 30mm x 62mm x 16mm this will not fit
6306 is 30mm x 72mm x 19mm nope, I googled it.
Fix it and Ride On, Red Clay
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Yes, hammers weaken magnets. Rare earth is brittle and steel is aligned, the shock can bring the atoms out of alignment. (In fact, if you have a tool that gets magnetized, drop it on a hard surface or strike it to break up the field.)
Rubberized magnets are resistant to this and bumpers or stops will save rare earth magnets from shocks.
-Crissa
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Crissa, thank you...please continue. It is best to not hammer, granted. Metal hammer bad? Big wood or big rubber hammer better? Cushion the blow with rubber?
I've hammered two and they run great! May be luck?
fixing it to break it again, Red Clay
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We have this comment on youtube that deserves being shared.
"Nice rig! one suggestion, when you press the bearing onto the shaft, you could use the shaft bolt and a spacer/sleeve over the splines to press on the inner race, rather than pushing on the face-plate which transfers the press force through the bearing which can possibly damage it." Ryan Biffard
I missed that detail in the project process and I agree with his notion, plan to use this suggestion next time and will try to edit the video.
Thanks Ryan, Ride On, Red Clay
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If you have room, I wonder if installing a “Slinger” on the motor shaft right before the seal would help prevent water/dirt egress into the bearing.
https://www.google.com/search?q=pump+motor+shaft+slinger&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari
I changed my swing arm bearings (2016 DSR) @ about 40k miles & used Aeroshell Grease 14 https://www.mypilotstore.com/mypilotstore/sep/11516 as I’ve heard it good for such applications (not rotational but rather continuous back & forth movement).
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We have this comment on youtube that deserves being shared.
"Nice rig! one suggestion, when you press the bearing onto the shaft, you could use the shaft bolt and a spacer/sleeve over the splines to press on the inner race, rather than pushing on the face-plate which transfers the press force through the bearing which can possibly damage it." Ryan Biffard
I missed that detail in the project process and I agree with his notion, plan to use this suggestion next time and will try to edit the video.
Thanks Ryan, Ride On, Red Clay
Trying to wrap my brain around this one (I'm about to remove my motor and replace the same bearing). He's saying to use some washers to press the bearing into the housing, versus pressing the housing onto the shaft? Either way, aren't you putting force on the bearing no matter which way you install this since there are two elements being fitted to/through the bearing?
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I'll try to explain,
At 7:40 on the video, the bearing is pressed (hammered) into the plate until it rests against the shoulder of the plate. The bearing is sandwiched and held in place by the shoulder that is inside of the hole and the snap ring.
At 8:30 on the video, I placed boards in between the plate and the top of the rig.
As I tightened the bolt, the force of the rig is on to the plate, which transfers the force to the bearing with the above mentioned "shoulder". The legitimate concern is that the shoulder could break.
Ryan is suggesting to instead use a sleeve (pipe) in between the bearing itself and the top of the rig. The sleeve needs to be the same size as the inner race of the bearing and allow room on the inside for the motor shaft. Looking at the old bearing, which is 30mm ID, so the sleeve needs to be 32mm ID.
Thanks again Ryan. I'll edit this into the video one day soon. I hope this helps. Sometimes things are easier done than said.
Best luck with the project. Go slow and work on a very clean bench away from metal shavings.
Ride On, Red Clay
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Yes this is unfortunate but this is the kind of quality issue you have on Zeros - i had bearing, charger, plastics and battery issues- only the last one correctly handled by Zero & the dealer. Energica bikes seem to have much less of them but their cost is higher and they do not have dirt bikes.
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I'll try to explain,
At 7:40 on the video, the bearing is pressed (hammered) into the plate until it rests against the shoulder of the plate. The bearing is sandwiched and held in place by the shoulder that is inside of the hole and the snap ring.
At 8:30 on the video, I placed boards in between the plate and the top of the rig.
As I tightened the bolt, the force of the rig is on to the plate, which transfers the force to the bearing with the above mentioned "shoulder". The legitimate concern is that the shoulder could break.
Ryan is suggesting to instead use a sleeve (pipe) in between the bearing itself and the top of the rig. The sleeve needs to be the same size as the inner race of the bearing and allow room on the inside for the motor shaft. Looking at the old bearing, which is 30mm ID, so the sleeve needs to be 32mm ID.
Thanks again Ryan. I'll edit this into the video one day soon. I hope this helps. Sometimes things are easier done than said.
Best luck with the project. Go slow and work on a very clean bench away from metal shavings.
Ride On, Red Clay
Ah gotcha. I really appreciate you posting the video. As I type this, my motor sits in my basement disassembled with the front bearing out, waiting on the replacement to come in the mail in 3 days - followed your video step by step (although with a thrown together gantry of plywood, not steele tubing). I'm concerned about getting it back in based on that comment above - I have a 2500 mile trip in less than two weeks that I've spent months planning, I'm down to the wire on getting this bike up and running.
Did you replace the other motor bearing as well? I'm thinking that I probably should just for the sake of it since the motor is already taken apart. Thoughts?
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Hello ADVENTURESonZERO,
Congratulations on being half way there. The re-assembly is not too difficult, granted though a little nerve wracking the first time through. Notice in the video, after 8:30, that I twisted the allthread bolt after each tightening. The twist caused the pressure to release with a popping sound, not audible in the video. A little at a time and the bearing pressed on without too much force.
I have not replaced the rear bearing on a motor yet. It is more involved than the front bearing, with pieces that have to be realigned perfectly. The only information that I have found on this subject is in the unofficial service manual and a post by travis kimbrell.
https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Motor_Bearing_Replacement
https://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8813.msg78554#msg78554
I do not understand the part about loctite 648. My question is: "If it is put back together with loctite...then how did he get it apart?"
Like you, I had a deadline to meet, therefor I did not look at the inner bearing parts and process while the motor was dis-assembled. I spun it. It seemed solid and moved on to the outer bearing, replaced because it had been compromised by dirt intrusion through the seal.
Post some pictures of the rig that you built.
If you replace the inner bearing, please take pictures and share.
Best of luck.
Excuse me, I can't resist.....HELLO ZEROMOTORCYCLES!! You build an awesome motorcycle BUT there are too many mysteries. Wish you offered your customers a real SERVICE MANUAL like every other motorcycle company!!.....done.
Ride On, red clay
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Off topic, but I don't think most motorcycle service manuals are produced by the manufacturer
EDIT: Apparently they are more common than I thought.
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Even if they did produce one, bearing replacement is not something Zero recommends(even for dealers) and would not be included.
I actually saw them building motors a while back at their plant, and it looked like fairly delicate work.
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Off topic, but I don't think most motorcycle service manuals are produced by the manufacturder.
And even if they did produce one, bearing replacement is not something Zero recommends(even for dealers) and would not be included.
I actually saw them building motors a while back at their plant, and it looked like fairly delicate work.
BMW makes wonderful factory DVD service manuals for each of their models that can be updated over the internet. They are the best service manuals that I have ever seen. Very clear and organized with step by step instructions and diagrams showing how each step is performed for every task you can think of. The dealers can order the DVD for the bike's owner for around $110 in NA.
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The service manual I have for my spouse's Ducati is from Ducati...
-Crissa
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So my bearing replacement did not succeed. After replacing both bearings with two Timken 6006 2rs bearings, I conducted a test ride after getting the motor put back in (after waiting 24 hours for locktite to cure).
After about 15 miles of absolute silence, the knocking sounds came back. There is no play or axial movement at the pulley or drive shaft, so I'm a bit perplexed at the moment. I've ordered some OEM bearings (NSK 6006DU 2rs), which will be here in a few days, hopefully that rectifies the issue.
I will say that the knocking sounds are reduced a bit, as are the vibrations from the first time this problem came up - so there's that ::)
Will update when I have replaced the other bearings...again. 3 times I've removed the motor in two weeks :'(
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Thanks for the update and sorry to hear that there are still issues with the motor.
I too am perplexed and have the standard questions: Are you sure the sound is coming from the motor/bearings? Do you hear the knocking sound when you run the motor without the belt? Is the sound more loud on one side?
Two of our six brand new FX motorcycles had sounds coming from the motor, a clicking/popping sound that matched the rpms. Seemingly, bad bearings from the factory. The motors were replaced by Zero and I did not ask for an explanation for the source of the sound.
The bearings that were replaced in the video were making a grinding sound from obvious dirt intrusion.
How was the process of getting to the inner bearing? Were there any issues with the disassembly? Pictures? Video?
On a positive note: the motor sure is easy to remove!! especially compared to my, now sold, Honda XR650R.
keep on striving on so we can Ride On, red clay