ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Richard230 on December 07, 2020, 09:28:12 PM
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I am beginning to wonder if there is a future for electric motorcycles in the U.S. I know they are picking up in popularity in the EU and there are millions of small motorcycles and scooters being used for local transportation in China, but I sure am not seeing much interest in highway-capable electric motorcycles on the few ICE motorcycle forums that I frequent. For the past 6 years or so I have been posting electric motorcycle news on these forums and have received absolutely no apparent interest in the subject. No comments and no "likes". Just silence. The the other day, after posting a link to the Revzilla comparison between the LiveWire and the Zero SR/S I received a comment that told me to "put a plug in it", followed by that comment receiving a couple of "likes". So I am starting to think that the subject of electric motorcycles is not something that ICE motorcycle enthusiasts really want to hear about.
It would appear to me that the major motorcycle brands are not all that interested in the technology, either. I assume because they believe that their customers really don't want electric motorcycles that are comparable to their ICE models and they wouldn't make enough profit to make it worth entering the market. Right now I am seeing nothing coming out of any of the Asian manufacturers, other than the occasional concept EV being used to generate interest at motorcycle shows. Then you have the European manufacturers, like Triumph, KTM and Ducati, all of which appear to be waiting for the other guy to make a move. Meanwhile, BMW shows off an electric motorcycle apparently designed as a piece of industrial artwork, rather than something practical. While their big electric scooter seems to have been reasonably well received in the French market, it appears to have gone over like a lead balloon in the U.S.
You would think that with the apparent increase in acceptance and sales of electric automobiles in the U.S. and the EU, there would be more interest in electric motorcycles by the major manufacturers and even government regulators and politicians (if nothing else due to their lack of noise and pollution). But I am not seeing that, either.
However, I do give credit to H-D for finally producing their very capable LiveWire and it appears that Polaris may jump into the off-road electric ATV market, Unfortunately, the LiveWire is way too expensive to make much of a dent in the motorcycle market, while Zero and Energica just don't have enough of a share of the motorcycle market to catch the attention of the traditional major motorcycle brands or the general motorcycle buying customer.
I have been riding electric motorcycles locally around the SF Bay Area for the past 12 years and have yet to have an ICE rider come up and ask me questions about any of my Zeros, although they do generate interest by Tesla owner.
So my question is: Will there ever be a market for electric motorcycles in the U.S.? And if so, what will it take for that market to develop so that it will supplant, or at least compete, with the ICE market?
Are things any different in other world markets, like in the EU countries, or do I just have a parochial view of the situation?
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There is not much interest in middle-America for the same reason there is not much interest in Siberia. The distances required for even regular use is too much, and there is a lack of infrastructure. People in California live in a bubble similar to the EU. For many metropolitan areas, it's sufficient to rely upon other methods, especially public transport.
I give credit that the Scandinavian countries are embracing electric, and if I was asked that question 10 years ago I would have said no way. They surprised us. I guess the 'smallness' of those countries trumps the cold weather issue.
My guess is most people think of electric motorcycles not unlike those foldable electric scooters. They're simply too limited, whether real or perceived.
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I feel many motorcycle enthusiasts in the US love the sound and feel of ICE motorcycles. If the comments I've read on local forums and in many reviews are any indication, the attitude towards EV motorcycles in the US are usually summed up as follows:
- They're too heavy
- They're too expensive
- They don't have enough range for me to do "X" type of riding
- They take too long to recharge
- There aren't enough charging stations
- They lack character and are soulless
I'm not discounting the views above but in general I find US riders (and drivers) don't like having to adjust how they live/interact/use their vehicles. IMHO, EVs do require you to adjust how you live and interact with your vehicle, whether a car or a motorcycle.
That being said, in my neck of the SF Bay Area, I get asked about my Energicas frequently when I'm running errands around town. I can't say it's other riders or not since usually it's folks in regular street clothes but I have had more than one rider pull up next to me at a light and ask the quick question or two before the light changes.
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That being said, in my neck of the SF Bay Area, I get asked about my Energicas frequently when I'm running errands around town.
I have been riding electric motorcycles locally around the SF Bay Area for the past 12 years and have yet to have an ICE rider come up and ask me questions about any of my Zeros, although they do generate interest by Tesla owner.
Maybe they just don't like you? ;D
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Maybe they just don't like you? ;D
;D
In all seriousness, I think at around town speeds, the sound the Energicas make is more noticeable than the Zeros. Kind of hard for pedestrians and folks in shopping centers not to notice me tooling around.
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I think the main issue why EV cars are a lot more common than EV motorcycles is the range. I find NO disadvantages of my Tesla (LR, AWD) when compared to an ICE car. It can go anywhere an ICE car can go in the USA. I cannot say that with any electric motorcycle. At least not without a lot of inconvenient planning.
As I explained before, right now there are no EV motorcycles than can get from Reno to Salt Lake City on I-80. That's pretty bad.
OTOH, it is improving. They are finally putting a CCS charge station in Lovelock, NV. But even with that, how are we going to keep up with the 80MPH traffic (legal speed limit there) from Lovelock to Winnemucca even with a Plus Energica?
In my Tesla, I would not even have to stop in Lovelock, but could. And be passing everybody on the way.
The main issue for motorcycles is the lack of charge stations for their little range.
My Tesla at so called "city speeds" will do more than 400 miles. More than 300 at 65 MPH. I would expect more than 200 at faster speeds. And not only that, more places to charge it. Lovelock has had a Tesla Superchargers for years.
EV motorcycles still have their issues when compared to EV cars. Not only that, I think all motorcycle sales have been low over the last few years and that includes ICE.
-Don- Pahrump, NV
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I am beginning to wonder if there is a future for electric motorcycles in the U.S.......
So my question is: Will there ever be a market for electric motorcycles in the U.S.? And if so, what will it take for that market to develop so that it will supplant, or at least compete, with the ICE market?
Signs on the interstate right along side the gasoline and diesel available at an upcoming exit, with some sort of understanding that such electric charging stations will be functional and accept visa, mastercard, american express etc. Edit:go inside and pay cash as well. Same sort of convention that one can be confident to find a pump within a short distance that exists now.
How about that for a start.
I think most of us on here are pretty dissapointed in the review accuracy of the "journalists" in the electric motorcycle sector that are linked on this site. Seperate of that is multiple sources of articles where the problem is finding a charger that works for the bike and applications that are necessary. Around here Let's say route 19 close to the Ct Ma line the motorcycle traffic by number say average pack size is such that the charging infastructure for automobiles that rarely travel in packs as best as I can tell, needs be different.
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Agreed...I posted on another site that IMHO, widespread adoption of EVs in general other than Teslas will continue to be hampered due to the disparate authorization and charging standards of the CCS chargers here in the US.
I know it's not practical to have the level of integration Teslas have with their superchargers (just back in, plug in, charge up, drive off) but the fact that I have to carry a half dozen RFID cards and the associated apps on my phone because I don't know what vendor "owns" the charger I'm pulling up to and whether it will work with the phone app, the RFID card, or neither.
This lack of a standard authorization and billing system for US CCS charges is why my Energicas and Bolt will remain my local, daily drivers and my Tesla will be my road trip EV.
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This seems like a good place to drop this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoN4WCpuxHY
To show how the UK seems to be going all in on EVs.
This type of multi use center will be what's needed to get people more comfortable with the whole EV process. Not only will this center have small shops to multitask your charge time, but they talk about being authorized to sign people up for EV leases. They will at least be a show room and will likely be able to offer test rides and informative consulting to get people onboard for a new way of driving.
I think it's just a fact that it's easier to sell an EV when that is all that is offered at that location instead of a GM dealer with gas and electric on the same lot. Like Harlan and Hollywood Electrics.
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BoJo really has gone all-in on the EV drive in the UK, probably the only thing of merit he has managed to preside over during his tenure as PM. Most other EU countries are heading in roughly the same direction with roughly the same timescales planned.
Regarding the future of EVs in the US: as the US will no longer be able to export ICE to Europe in as little as 10 years time there will be absolutely no choice but for US industry to go all out on electrification too, or they'll simply become isolated and ruin their export market completely - not that there was much of one anyway as US vehicles have always been very anachronistic and generally unwanted in the rest of the entire world, with oddly enough, the exception of Harley Davidson. H-D's also taking electrification more seriously than mostly every other manufacturer in the US bar Tesla: they have fundamentally understood what the problems and issues are and not tried to brush any of them under the carpet, unlike Zero, who are so depressingly lacking in self-reflection they just can't see their huge, huge glaring issues. Issues that certain other companies named after electrical entrepreneurs have seen, 10 years ago, and set out to simply solve without bullshit.
The reason Tesla is so successful is because they looked at the problems with EVs, and they didn't hand-wavy it all away or pretend it's not like that or "you're using it wrongly" or make literally any excuses at all for being not as good as ICE vehicles. That's why today they charge in minutes, they can be updated over-the-air, they have insane range, the drivetrain and battery reliability is enviably good even compared to the best ICE brands, they work when it's cold, they work when it's hot, they can be charged repeatedly, and lordy are they fast. About the only place they're below par is build quality - but even then you don't get Tesla pretending there's no problem at all... they fix it. See the recent fiasco with Model 3 rear bumpers falling off in puddles, or the new addition of the heat pump to the 3, etc. Not without faults - but not without fixes.
In the meantime:
- Zero releases firmware so broken that they self-cripple their entire premium range. Imagine if Tesla did that.
- Zero continues to release bikes that just stop working in the rain. Imagine if Tesla did that.
- Zero continues to pretend that charging is not The Single Biggest Issue with EVs, releasing bikes with a hopelessly slow AC OBC that breaks so reliably and regularly that you wonder why there's not been a class action suit to have them fixed as a known design issue, and no DCFC capability at all, wtf
- Zero also refuses to acknowledge that their belt drive isn't strong enough or protected enough from damage.
- H-D made such an incredible first attempt it's a shame they saw fit to include such a feeble AC OBC with something that costs over half as much as a Model 3, almost like they needed to figure out some way to cripple it so they could release a better one in two years or something
- At £30k no-one really cares anyway because only 5 people in the UK can afford one
- Energica are ... well actually they seem to be doing it right, just still too heavy and still too pricey.
The problems remain... price, range, charging, weight, reliability. All of which need to change by about a factor of two to reach parity with ICE. The driving market will be the rest of the world rather than the US most likely. Every one of the Japanese manufacturers is already deep into development of EV motorcycles, and the rest of Asia is already on the case too, kicking out usable and useful machines at affordable prices (Super Soco TC Max? Don't mind if I do, plz!)
Cas :)
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Are there really that many Americans that commute (ignore riding for fun as it's easy to exceed the range of any electric bike no matter what country you're in) beyond the range of say a 14.4 in a day? I get that it's a big place but surely most people will try to have jobs that don't require a couple of hours of riding to get there and back (and those that do would surely prefer a car).
As for the hate, or just disinterest, for electric bikes, most of it comes from people that have never tried them. The rest comes from boomers that just don't see them as real bikes or street Rossis that scoff at anything under 120hp that can't do 0-60 in 3 seconds and hit 150mph. Those people aren't unique to America, although there's perhaps more of them due to brands like Harley and the ability to easily and cheaply have a high powered bike and having long unmonitored highways that allow higher speeds.
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They still say that about cars too, but their opinions are inversely proportional in value to my Tesla stocks. We can safely wait for them to die and forget about what they think.
Cas :)
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I get stopped and asked by people about my Zero all the time. Either complements or questions. It seems like an electric bike makes you everyone's friend... unless they just don't like motorcycles.
Most people are surprised at the cost, but happy to hear it's freeway capable. I always point out it's old and I got it used... That always piques the interest of riders.
But yeah, the apehanger guys don't give it any respect. And they buy alot of bikes.
-Crissa
PS: The median commute is 16 miles. The average time is an hour and a half a day. So yes, a Zero covers nearly all commuters (over 90%) https://itstillruns.com/far-americans-drive-work-average-7446397.html
As I explained before, right now there are no EV motorcycles than can get from Reno to Salt Lake City on I-80. That's pretty bad.
You need to check PlugShare more often. Can't you charge in Lovelock now?
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Those are some thoughtful comments above. :) I really think that there are many ICE motorcycle enthusiasts who are afraid that if EVs are successful in the market place their choice of new motorcycles will be limited and will be propelled by a technology that they don't understand (and don't want to understand).
All day long around here I hear about motorcycle traffic accidents jamming up the freeways during commute hours, likely due to speeding and weaving through traffic (such as it is this year, last year the accidents were a lot more numerous). I bet those accidents are not being caused by riders on an electric motorcycle. ;)
One other observation that I will make is that the three most discussed subject on ICE motorcycle forums (once you get past everyone's favorite, the oil thread ::) ) are windshields, seats and what loud exhaust is available for their bike. It is amazing how many riders really want a much louder muffler than comes on the stock bike. :( That is a tough discussion to have when you ride electric. ;)
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The problems remain... price, range, charging, weight, reliability. All of which need to change by about a factor of two to reach parity with ICE.
Price is a factor, but I don't think it's that significant, nor are any of those other factors. Weekend riders need ICE bikes, but in my experience the majority of riders are commuters who don't ride on weekends, and that's exactly where EVs can win big.
The main factor is coolness. People will pay big bucks and suffer a lot of mechanical grief to be cool. Perceived coolness is responsible for most of Tesla sales, and much of Apple's too. That includes some pretty outrageous stuff that couldn't be justified on the basis of function alone.
In peoples' minds, EVs are really uncool. Slow, lumbering toys that geeks putter around on. Tree hugging, holier-than-thou nerd geeks.
Our mission, should we choose to accept it, is to smoke every ICE bike off the line at every stop light. Gawd is that fun. I just love it and will never miss an opportunity. A Ducati or Harley will clang up alongside me on my small silent dirt-bike-thing. When the light is about to turn, they look ahead and clunk it into year, while I survey cross traffic, yawning lightly. When the light turns green... full throttle boom gone! When I roll off at the speed limit they fly by and assume the risk of being pulled over, but for some reason, they usually turn off before the next light??
Zero could widen their market simply by unleashing more of that torque at 0 MPH. Race-winning performance is fundamentally easier for EVs. That, plus their bikes are starting to look the part more and more. I'm fond of the FX narrow black stealth fighter look. Part of me doesn't mind if EVs stay an exclusive club for a little longer.
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In my experience the reactions from other people, riders and non-riders (only ICE, I've only met one other Zero owner and that was before I got mine), have been generally positive. Of course no one's going to tell me to my face that they think it's lame but I've had plenty of people say it's cool, neat, and shown genuine interest in it. A surprising amount of people didn't even know electric motorbikes were a thing, with performance beyond a typical pedelec. When it comes to converting those people to electric riders the biggest hurdles have been price (totally fair), range, and charging times. For the latter two points the issue is they either want to ride for fun on the weekend (again, totally fair) or they're thinking about it in ICE terms and imagining they'll always be filling up at public stations instead of charging at home in the evenings/overnight and thinking they need enough range for like a whole week.
I don't think weight is an issue at all and if it is it's a misconception, and reliability isn't a problem itself but rather the high cost of some repairs. Chances are your electric bike will go longer without a problem than your ICE bike but when the electric does have one the cost to fix could end up being enough to buy another whole ICE bike. One thing I would like to see is an option to pay for an extended warranty.
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I would agree coolness drives Tesla sales: That's why he started with the Roadster. Many purchases are driven by aspirational trips rather than actual ones.
But I would disagree on Apple: They specifically do not have the best tech and sell on the low-maintenance plan. They just work, and they'll sell you a plan to make sure that happens. As someone trained to maintain both macs and pcs... Macs are tons easier to maintain. Or at least, historically. The number of hours required to get a user back to work is straight up less.
And that is the market Tesla is aiming at now, but it is still straddling the 'needs to just work' and 'cool acceleration and lap times'.
-Crissa
If we get more torque at 0 we need more traction control. Even my Zero beats nearly everything to 30mph but every time I talk to an older rider they worry it will spin out from under them.
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Two other reasons I thought of why ICE riders stick with them, besides everything else discussed.
1) They can repair motorcycles themselves. You cannot always do that with Zero motorcycles, as evidenced by many threads here of people being left out in the cold by Zero outside of the USA. Motorcycle riders also tend to want to wrench more than your average car buyer. They are self sufficient. A soccer mom is not fixing her own Toyota.
Tesla buyers aren't interested in fixing their cars, hence the disposable income to buy a Tesla.
2) We're asking the wrong question. It's not "Why use an ICE bike when an EV can do almost everything you need?" The question is, "What does an EV motorcycle do better than an ICE bike?". ie. Why change? If an ICE bike can commute AND drive across the State easily, why settle for something that can't. They aren't wrong. This is so obvious it's painful. What's the number one question everyone asks about EV's? Say it with me.
I don't own more than one motorcycle and I understand the limitations of my FXS. I also know I cannot ride with my motorcycle friends outside of a quick trip around town. I'd need a second ICE bike for that. Why would their second bike need to be an EV?
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I am still interested in why the major motorcycle brands don't seem to be interested in even trying to market an electric motorcycle. At least H-D rolled out their LiveWire five years ago to a certain amount of acclaim and then eventually followed it up with a production model. While I hear whispers from the other established major brands that they might be thinking about developing a electric motorcycle (like Kawasaki) it doesn't seem to be anything other than talk. I really did expect Honda to be active in the electric motorcycle field, but I haven't heard much other than a in-town Super Cub-like model. (If my recollection is correct. ??? ) I bet if Mr. Honda was still around, they would have already have a electric bike on the market, with another catchy ad like "You meet the nicest people on an electric Honda" ;)
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The reason is dead simple: the battery technology cripples electric motorcycles, so they're all sitting and waiting until batteries hold twice the charge in the same volume and weight, and cost half as much, because as Tesla has demonstrated, when you make things go twice as far as everyone else and twice as fast and charge in half the time, people buy your stuff.
Tesla is only cool because their cars are incredible. Elon Musk, bless his outrageously out-of-touch billionaire's socks, is a nob of the highest order, but his cars rock. If Teslas managed 100 miles on a charge (hello Honda, derp, derp), they would be deeply uncool too. If they only crawled to 60 in 12 seconds, they'd be uncool. But they do 300 miles and smoke everything including bikes off the line. This is what electric bikes need to do. There are no aspects at which EV bikes are better than ICE bikes right now (hoping for change) apart from performance, which is already beyond the capabilities of 99% of riders to use and 99% of roads to ride on and 99% of situations so that problem really is a solved one.
Cas :)
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EV bikes never have to go to the gas station.
In practical terms, my bike saves loads of time over my spouse's. It's almost always ready to go for an hour's ride. Which is more than she does if she's not going up to the city.
And that's alot of time saved. 'Honey, may I use your bike? Mine needs gas.'
-Crissa
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I hear that argument trotted out frequently and it's a valid point but it's orthogonal to the issue of stopping for literally hours if you want to rove further than 30 miles from home. It's a very minor advantage that works for one single use case - a short daily commute to work - but that's a very small use case.
Tesla succeeded because they made no excuses. You can go as far in a Tesla as you can in an ICE car. You can charge it up nearly as fast as you can fill ICEs with petrol, in some places, but fortunately you have to do it so infrequently you need a bit of a rest anyway.
If we keep on making excuses about "90% of journeys are under 50 miles" then it will forever be the case that the last 10% of journeys we actually do make will be the reason they don't catch on. 90% of my journeys are under 50 miles at a time, but without being able to do the other 10% of journeys which actually account for most of my annual mileage I still can't make the switch.
Cas :)
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Honda got into the worldwide motorcycle market with the 1960's Super Cub (making many millions of them over the years) and has now produced a line of similar small motorcycles using their 125cc engine. These include last year's Super Cub and the new CT125 Trail/Hunter model. Both have been well received by the market and are perfect for getting around urban and suburban areas and for easy exploring off-road. In the case of most markets where the CT125 has been introduced they are completely sold out and have a long waiting list. I really think Honda missed a bet resurrecting the Super Cub as an e-bike to get the market interested and familiar with electric power as a cool and trendy thing to be seen riding. Just like back in the day, once the public warmed up to them, Honda could start to expand their lineup with larger and more performance-oriented electric motorcycle models. :)
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Far, far more than 90% of my journeys are under 50 miles. I go over the hill maybe ten, fifteen times a year. While I go to the store or appointments at least four times a week, plus a fun ride which might but usually doesn't use up all of my range.
Less than 3% of my trips are longer than my there and back range. Half of those I'm carrying more than I can on my bike, and the other half I'm somewhere long enough to charge even my bike, let alone a modern Zero. That leaves just a handful of trips this bike can't make.
Nearly all motorcycle owners in the US have more than one vehicle.
-Crissa
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If the discussion topic is the future. The amount it costs for a dealership to take on an electric line might be due some consideration. Another forum I am on someone recently conveyed that is is going to cost $200k for a Cadallac dealership to deal with the electric offerings. Harley and Ktm only had a fraction of their dealerships take on the electric bikes. Most of the discussion pertaining to Harley was the cost of the chargers not equipment and training.
With some of the other threads on here I have to wonder about dropping of brands, say Zero in particular how much can the local shop tolerate for a dozen sales a year?
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The YT channel E for Electric did a quick spot on the Cadillac situation. It seems GM has wanted to thin the number of Caddy dealers for some time and this helps push that along.
The Livewire wasn't a good enough bike for the price and dealers balked. There will be other electric offerings in the near future and they might get on board then.
At this point the feel of the electric ride has to be enough to make the move. The other reasons are coming, and pretty soon.
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If the discussion topic is the future. The amount it costs for a dealership to take on an electric line might be due some consideration. Another forum I am on someone recently conveyed that is is going to cost $200k for a Cadallac dealership to deal with the electric offerings. Harley and Ktm only had a fraction of their dealerships take on the electric bikes. Most of the discussion pertaining to Harley was the cost of the chargers not equipment and training.
With some of the other threads on here I have to wonder about dropping of brands, say Zero in particular how much can the local shop tolerate for a dozen sales a year?
I think the cost to Harley dealers was mentioned in another thread. I don't really get the issue, why the dealer needs to accommodate being able to fast DC charge loads of bikes. The dealer I got my Zero from just charged it by AC and that's how they charge their demo bikes, fast charging isn't even an option. I could understand wanting just one station as a demonstration for sales and in case there's some reason that a bike needs to be charged as soon as possible.
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I think the cost to Harley dealers was mentioned in another thread. I don't really get the issue, why the dealer needs to accommodate being able to fast DC charge loads of bikes. The dealer I got my Zero from just charged it by AC and that's how they charge their demo bikes, fast charging isn't even an option. I could understand wanting just one station as a demonstration for sales and in case there's some reason that a bike needs to be charged as soon as possible.
I believe HD wanted LiveWire dealers to accommodate LiveWire owners who participated in local HOG chapter events/rides since I believe they were sponsored by the closest dealer. I believe I read somewhere that the close tie between local HOG chapters and their closest dealers has been severed from a Corporate HD mandatory thing to a voluntary effort.
Of course I could be wrong on the above statements but that's what I seem to infer from various tidbits I've read over the past year or so. I blame my old brain for any gaps in info or inaccuracies. ;) :P
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Those DC chargers sure works like honey for DonTom.
-Crissa
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As Richard and others have pointed out Harley can't sell you things at a dealership unless they get you to come to the dealership.
Say I bet you'd like to charge faster than 1kW. Come on by the dealer we got CCS. ;)
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Increase the range
Lower the charging time
Lower the price
For electric motorcycles to be successful, pick any two.
(And do so without it being 600 pounds. Yeah, I can hear you Energica owners snickering.)
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I love my heavy bike. As long as my Energica can go & charge fast, I'm happy.
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As Richard and others have pointed out Harley can't sell you things at a dealership unless they get you to come to the dealership.
Say I bet you'd like to charge faster than 1kW. Come on by the dealer we got CCS. ;)
And while you are there fast charging, buy a few Screaming Eagle T-shirts that say "if you can read this, the bitch fell off the back". ::)