ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Tech => Tech Help => Topic started by: MikeL on June 05, 2020, 09:26:05 AM
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Hey all, I got home from work today and plugged in my bike and walked away assuming it would charge. I went to unplug it later as I assumed it would be fully charged and I noticed that the state of charge hadn't changed (89%) and the green charge light was off. I assumed maybe I didn't plug it in all the way or somehow tripped a breaker in my electrical box but I had power and nothing tripped.
What happens when I plug it in:
- Bike comes on in charge mode
- Charge light flashes green
- Audible click (of contact connectors I'm assuming?)
- No change in time to charge, stays at 0:00
- Green flashing charge light turns off completely after a few more seconds
I pulled error codes and only got the following: 44, 45, and 47. 47 is the only one that stands out to me as it's MBB but I honestly have no idea.
I pulled motorcycle and battery logs but don't know how to read .bin files.
Any thoughts or help would be greatly appreciated.
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You'll need to upload the logs to the log parser, I think you can also upload the .bin files here for others to upload and look at for you.
https://zero-motorcycle-community.github.io/browser-parse/zero-log-parser.html
44 and 45 relate to the kick stand switch and kill switch if I remember correctly, not that there's a problem with them but just telling you that they're on so nothing to worry about there.
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You'll need to upload the logs to the log parser, I think you can also upload the .bin files here for others to upload and look at for you.
https://zero-motorcycle-community.github.io/browser-parse/zero-log-parser.html
44 and 45 relate to the kick stand switch and kill switch if I remember correctly, not that there's a problem with them but just telling you that they're on so nothing to worry about there.
Oh that's awesome! We used a similar thing for drone logs after crashes at my last job. I was actually thinking "I wish we had an upload tool like I had before." Glad this exists.
I had to cut down a lot of the data to just the last few days to meet the upload limits - hopefully the logs will be helpful in figuring things out. I've attached them if anyone wants to take a look.
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Seems the CANBUS can't talk to the BMS:
07236 06/04/2020 18:17:23 ERROR: 1/1500 PL536 Read Attempts Failed. Breakdown: conv- 2, (crc,timeout)- 1=(0,0) 2=(0,0) 3=(0,0) 4=(0,0) 5=(0,0)
The PL536 I believe is this part: https://www.ti.com/product/BQ76PL536
Cas :)
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Seems the CANBUS can't talk to the BMS:
07236 06/04/2020 18:17:23 ERROR: 1/1500 PL536 Read Attempts Failed. Breakdown: conv- 2, (crc,timeout)- 1=(0,0) 2=(0,0) 3=(0,0) 4=(0,0) 5=(0,0)
The PL536 I believe is this part: https://www.ti.com/product/BQ76PL536
Cas :)
Appreciate the help! This may be a job for my dealership more then me if that's the case. This looks like an actual on-board chip which I don't want to mess with. I'm assuming my dealership would just want to replace the whole part it's attached to. Hopefully it's not too expensive.
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The PL536 chips are on the BMS board inside the battery case and will probably be covered under the battery warranty: https://zeromanual.com/wiki/BMS/Architecture (https://zeromanual.com/wiki/BMS/Architecture)
Replacing them would require some significant/professional skill and you'd have to de-pot and re-pot the board, so it's not worthwhile until the battery warranty expires.
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Might not be the chips; could be any part of the connection up to the chips (ie. the CANBUS). Could just be a loose wire or connector or a dry joint.
Cas :)
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Re-seating the BMS might fix it, but is a high voltage access job that should be done by the dealer if your battery is within warranty or if you're not experienced professionally and don't want to deal with the risk.
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Hopefully its just a connection issue that can be fixed easily at the dealer. Contacted them today and they said to drop it off tomorrow.
Thanks for the help all - I'll report back once it's fixed.
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Quick update from my dealer is that they were able to get it to charge - by just plugging it in. Which is a bit frustrating but glad to hear it's working. It's throwing a "check engine" light though and they are waiting to hear back from Zero on that. Hopefully will have more updates tomorrow when they open up.
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Isn't that always the case. You try something a dozen times with no success. Load it up, take it to the dealer and it works perfectly ( other than the light )
At least with the light, they can't just shake their head at you.
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Well, I forgot to update this post with the final conclusion. The conclusion was.. well... nothing haha. The dealership sent the logs to Zero and worked with them to see if they could find any issues. They said they didn't see anything in the logs that was of concern. They said it was probably a one-time fault that triggered it all or something along those lines. The dealership cleared the check engine light and documented everything for me.
They said it MIGHT be the charger, but unless it happens a again they can't be certain. I'm just hoping it was something minor and I won't see it again.
Isn't that always the case. You try something a dozen times with no success. Load it up, take it to the dealer and it works perfectly ( other than the light )
At least with the light, they can't just shake their head at you.
Seriously, when they called and said it's charging fine I was thinking just that lol. I'm just glad it wasn't anything in the end.
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Hi MikeL
Has this prob re-occurred or have you any inkling what caused it?
I just had exact same on my 2019 FX - downloaded logs & they look much the same as yours - however my problem is that nearest dealer is +150 miles away in Edinburgh?
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I’m having this exact same problem right now, I have already posted my logs in the general chat under “bms issues”. I haven’t seen any improvement but I will be attempting to charge the bike tomorrow when I get the chance. My nearest dealer is 180 miles away so I get it, but I’m just going to have to suck it up and get it there.
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I have the same probleme with a 2017 FXS - the charging stops at 87%, and the range is indeed reduced by 13%..
Seems like a generic problem. Anybody from Zero having an idea about what can be done with this ?
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Have you tried a different charger?
-Crissa
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I have the same probleme with a 2017 FXS - the charging stops at 87%, and the range is indeed reduced by 13%..
Seems like a generic problem. Anybody from Zero having an idea about what can be done with this ?
Sounds like the OBC won't go to the full battery voltage under load, so no matter how long you leave it charging it won't get above whatever voltage is at 87% SOC.
It should charge fine to 100% if you use a Delta Q-charger, even if the OBC is also being used.
I expect soon your OBC will only charge to 85%, then 80%, etc. as the OBC will probably drop even more so as it ages. Or completely fail soon.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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So what is the solution ?
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Solution: Charge with external charger.
If this works, the problem is the OBC, which can be replaced easily.
If this doesn't, the problem is either the BMS or MBB, and they are not easily replaced without support software from Zero,
-Crissa
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So what is the solution ?
The OBC usually cannot be repaired internally, so the solution is to replace the OBC.
But for now, if you can get your hands on an external charger Delta-Q charger, page 20 (https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/accessories-en-us.pdf), the bike should then charge all the way up to 100%.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Since this is clearly a defects that reduces the specs of the bike well under what is advertised, is there any recall on the way ? The bike is still under warranty...
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Since this is clearly a defects that reduces the specs of the bike well under what is advertised, is there any recall on the way ? The bike is still under warranty...
"Recalls" are for safety related things. Other issues, such as a charger not working correctly will be under a "TSB" (Technical Service Bulletin).
I don't think there are any TSBs on the charger, but it does seem to have a rather high failure rate, as it is small, uncooled and a lot of power.
If your bike is in warranty, you're going to have to get your bike to the shop and let a Zero dealer deal with it. I know that can be a big hassle, but it's the only reasonable answer.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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But if they change it and the part is defective, it will happen again. Do new OBC perform better / did they fix them ?
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They have changed the on board chargers over time.
-Crissa
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But if they change it and the part is defective, it will happen again. Do new OBC perform better / did they fix them ?
I don't consider them "defective", they are just trying to make them small, light, uncooled and powerful and all that doesn't go together all that well so random failures are somewhat common. OTOH, I have more than 10K miles (16 KM) on each of my bikes with no OBC issues so far. But I also try to avoid leaving them on for countless hours at a time, by adding in external chargers even when I am not in a hurry.
They do make updates to the OBCs faily often, but I have my doubts on how much it helps with reliability. It's still the same power in the same small uncooled size.
Compare to the external Delta Q-chargers. At least for my DS and SR, The Delta-Q's are larger with better heat sinks, heavier and less powerful than the OBC, so they have a much lower failure rate.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I get it. No problem for me if the defect is made clear, and the change fast.
And, again, this stresses how important it is:
- to have a good & reliable dealer
- to share with the community - thanks to you guys you are the reason why I bought a second Zero despite many dealer or quality related issues
I checked with my dealer - surprisingly he was able to reach 94% charge by plugging using the OBC, where I could never go beyond 84%. He will check with Zero if this is the OBC issue.
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I get it. No problem for me if the defect is made clear, and the change fast.
And, again, this stresses how important it is:
- to have a good & reliable dealer
- to share with the community - thanks to you guys you are the reason why I bought a second Zero despite many dealer or quality related issues
I checked with my dealer - surprisingly he was able to reach 94% charge by plugging using the OBC, where I could never go beyond 84%. He will check with Zero if this is the OBC issue.
I bet it is. ;)
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FWIW my '18 FX is starting to have the same issue. I noticed when it would only charge to 97%, and it now maxes out at 95%. I can charge to 100% using an offboard charger, so it sounds like this is the typical on board charger failure.
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Hi there all,
i had similar issues with charging my 2014 Zero FX since i bought it one year ago, nearly always when it was cold and wet weather.
As initially Described:
1. Plug in
2. Charge light starts flashing green
3. Slightly audible clicks from minor relais and very audible click of the BMS contactors
4. No change in time to charge, stays at 0:00
5. Green flashing charge light turns off completely after a few more seconds
6. In my case in most of the times, it starts to charge after 10 minutes, but does not charge reliably to 100%
I changed the chargers and due to another issue also the charging control unit - but the problem was still there.
Finally, i got it solved and at least in my case the problem was a contact inside the fuse holder for the abc10a-fuse. Turned out, the contact on the top-lid has moved back over the years. i bent it back a little bit forward and cleaned all contact suraces includiing the outer contacts conneting to the cables.
This issue was not measurable - i put an ohm-meter on the contacts of the fuse holder and it showed almost no resistance, as it should.
There might be some measurements by the CCU (Charging Control Unit) as switches through initially. I had once tried to measure if it even switches through, with the fuse holder disconneted and instead the cable from the CCU connected a volt meter (the other pole to battery mass); there was a short burst to charging voltage and immediately afterwards 0V again, so i assume, the CCU makes some initial amp-checking and if that fails, it seems to switch off entirely to try again after 10 minutes. This might be triggered or enhanced by that bad contact inside the fuse holder.
Since then i had no issue anymore with the bike starting to charge - it charges as it should right away as soon as it gets power in all conditions.
I hope, this might help anyone who's having similar charging issues with his FX - it made me mad for months!!