ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: c-fut on April 24, 2020, 03:14:18 AM
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Hello all. My buddy built a solar charging array that consists of 2 solar panels rated at 37.93v / 9.09a / 345w each. These 2 panels will be wired in paralled to get 37.93v / 18.18a / 689.56w for the 2 panels. These 2 panels will charge 2 lithium phosphate batteries rated at 12v x 100ah=1200wh each. The 2 batteries will be wired in series to get 24v x 100ah=2400wh. The inverter is rated for 2000watts at 24v. Would I be able to plug my onboard charger to the inverter to charge my zero s that has a 13kw battery with this setup? Thanks in advance.
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I don't see any reason why that wouldn't work, Andy Kirby (on Youtube) has a similar setup that he uses to charge his Twizzy and e-bikes. I assume this is stationary setup at your buddy's home, if so and you're going to be charging from it regularly I'd up the battery capacity if it's not too costly.
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Well...
...Not really, since you're only producing <0.7KWh per hour the sun is up.
Maybe if the batteries were fully charged, and you plugged in while the panels were in full sun, you could charge using the default charger.
But you'll want an inverter with a capacity 50% more than the wattage of the bike's charger. The peak power an inverter can produce is different than the throughput power it can produce for the hours needed to charge the bike. The electronics will heat up and become less efficient at what they do and need to shed that heat somehow.
That's not to say there might not be a way to trickle-charge the battery. I dunno.
-Crissa
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Assuming that the inverter will be able to sustain the 1300W (1.3KW) that the onboard charger will need, then you will be able to put back about 2000W (2KW) in your 13KW pack. You are limited by the capacity of the storage battery because the solar panels can't provide the 1300W for the charger. So after charging for about 1.5 hours your storage pack will be empty, and your motorcycle SOC will be about 10% more than before you started charging from that 2400W storage pack, and only if it was fully charged.
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If the array and the batteries are connected, you'll get a little bit further, but yes, TEV's basic math is what I was meaning.
-Crissa
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You're making a couple of naive errors that many new solar converts make. First, your "345W" solar panels will never deliver that. They may approach "rated" voltage unloaded; "rated" current into a short circuit; together, never. That's just how they rate them. You'll be doing well to deliver 250 actual watts on a good day in direct summer sunshine, or around 500 watts (0.5kw) between the two.
Your primary mistake, however, is conflating kwh and kw. A battery's capacity is rated in kwh, power is rated in kw. You're saying you want to charge a 13kwh battery (your bike) from your buddy's 2.4kwh battery. Do you see the problem with this? You could gain a partial charge, but only very partial. The solar array's ~0.500kw will help, of course, but only slowly.
Sure, you could do it, but only over the course of many hours and/or several days.
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I don't see any reason why that wouldn't work, Andy Kirby (on Youtube) has a similar setup that he uses to charge his Twizzy and e-bikes. I assume this is stationary setup at your buddy's home, if so and you're going to be charging from it regularly I'd up the battery capacity if it's not too costly.
I was thinking of building a set up like he has. I would be charging mostly from the batteries as the sun will be going down when I'm plugging in.
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Well...
...Not really, since you're only producing <0.7KWh per hour the sun is up.
Maybe if the batteries were fully charged, and you plugged in while the panels were in full sun, you could charge using the default charger.
But you'll want an inverter with a capacity 50% more than the wattage of the bike's charger. The peak power an inverter can produce is different than the throughput power it can produce for the hours needed to charge the bike. The electronics will heat up and become less efficient at what they do and need to shed that heat somehow.
That's not to say there might not be a way to trickle-charge the battery. I dunno.
-Crissa
The inverter is rated at 2000 watts and 4000 peak. Do you think that would be ok since the stock charger draws only 1.3-1.4kw?
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Assuming that the inverter will be able to sustain the 1300W (1.3KW) that the onboard charger will need, then you will be able to put back about 2000W (2KW) in your 13KW pack. You are limited by the capacity of the storage battery because the solar panels can't provide the 1300W for the charger. So after charging for about 1.5 hours your storage pack will be empty, and your motorcycle SOC will be about 10% more than before you started charging from that 2400W storage pack, and only if it was fully charged.
Sounds like I would need more batteries if I wanted to fully charge my Zero without sun
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You're making a couple of naive errors that many new solar converts make. First, your "345W" solar panels will never deliver that. They may approach "rated" voltage unloaded; "rated" current into a short circuit; together, never. That's just how they rate them. You'll be doing well to deliver 250 actual watts on a good day in direct summer sunshine, or around 500 watts (0.5kw) between the two.
Your primary mistake, however, is conflating kwh and kw. A battery's capacity is rated in kwh, power is rated in kw. You're saying you want to charge a 13kwh battery (your bike) from your buddy's 2.4kwh battery. Do you see the problem with this? You could gain a partial charge, but only very partial. The solar array's ~0.500kw will help, of course, but only slowly.
Sure, you could do it, but only over the course of many hours and/or several days.
That makes sense. Trying to fully charge a 13kwh battery with a 2.4kwh battery will definitely not do it. I thought a battery's capacity is rated in aH?
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If you have utility power, then I would simply get a couple of AC modules (grid tie solar panels with a micro inverter integrated) or integrate your own for savings. Connect that to your utility service (with permission of course, wink) and that 500W (real output) will produce an average of 2.5 kWh/day or about 12 days to fully charge from dead. This is much cheaper, easier, more efficient and useful (if no need for charge you still make use of the PV power). A new secondary battery will be about 90-95% efficient each way so you lose 10-20% of your energy moving power in and out of the solar battery. The utility is a massive and 100% efficient "battery" use that! "Charge" the utility with solar and take it back as needed. If you fully deplete your 13 kWh battery daily then you'll need about 3.5kW of PV power, every other day then it will require 1.75 kW for offset and so on. Calc for your needs.
I charge off of my 4.8 kW solar system but I've been off-grid for 40 years and I'm stuck with the secondary batteries for the home (14.6kWh at 1300 pounds!). However, I only charge during the day when my house batteries are only consuming under 2 kW leaving enough solar surplus to charge the Zero without actually taping the house batteries, in effect solar-direct charging. I typically return home with a 10-20% SOC and can be fully topped off in 2 days. Zero refers to "fuel" costs for me!
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And now you know the meaning of my profile name...
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Mind the minimum input rating of the original equipment. 100V minimum input in particular seems notable.
https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Gen2/Calex_Charger
https://greenwattpower.com/product/1300-watt-evc-li-ion-charger-series/
It is my understanding that the Calex/onboard charger has no inrush protection, so you may need to built in an external safety to the circuit as well.
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The OP had an optimistic power output from 2 solar panels (or he or she is in Arizona?).
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I have this solar charge controller. And you can step up the output voltage.
https://youtu.be/b9_xXY7Ez7A (https://youtu.be/b9_xXY7Ez7A)
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Looks like the battery on that 2010 model runs on a different voltage that what 2013+ models are using.
I think (????) this MPPT controller would work to charge via the auxiliary Anderson port on the Zero, given it could be programmed to stay within the proper charging limits. (It seems to match the elcon parameters pretty well).
https://www.desertcart.us/products/36071348-mabelstar-mppt-solar-charge-controller-96-v-50-a-with-led-and-lcd-display
(At Amazon - better price when I checked: https://www.amazon.com/Mabelstar-Solar-Charge-Controller-Display/dp/B01GEQCVGO )
-S
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Are you doing this for fun and experimenting or are you looking for a green way to charge your bike?
To ensure you collect as much power from the sun as possible and be able to charge your bike, you will probably need a 14.4kwh battery ;)
To be clear, you probably need a second battery with the same size of you motorcycle.
I have 9 solar panels with a Peak power of 2880 W (320 W peak for each panel) on my roof. This is connected to my home system trough a 3000 W inverter.
This powers my house during the day. When the power of the sun is more than sufficient I am providing the energy net with power. (I am using the energy net as my battery)
With this system I collect about 15kWh on a above average good day.
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Get 4 Panels like I have;) then connect them directly to your aux port, no charger, inverter or battery (just a Diode).
Actually dont do this, it's not very clean, I just wanted to mention it's possible:) https://youtu.be/xspFLWKUXXg
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Get 4 Panels like I have;) then connect them directly to your aux port, no charger, inverter or battery (just a Diode).
You do have a battery in the Zero!
Was the diode necessary? You should get a slightly higher charge current without the diode.
I wonder how well a 100V solar controller (https://www.amazon.com/SmartSolar-MPPT-100-Charge-Controller/dp/B073ZJ43L1/ref=pd_lpo_23_t_1/143-1643130-6510968?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B073ZJ43L1&pd_rd_r=30cb1776-9c13-4b8f-b8c4-10e33f12812e&pd_rd_w=JPCa6&pd_rd_wg=Yrneb&pf_rd_p=fb1e266d-b690-4b4f-b71c-bd35e5395976&pf_rd_r=EH45FQK68P6AK806PGRN&psc=1&refRID=EH45FQK68P6AK806PGRN)would work on a Zero battery.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I wonder how well a 100V solar controller (https://www.amazon.com/SmartSolar-MPPT-100-Charge-Controller/dp/B073ZJ43L1/ref=pd_lpo_23_t_1/143-1643130-6510968?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B073ZJ43L1&pd_rd_r=30cb1776-9c13-4b8f-b8c4-10e33f12812e&pd_rd_w=JPCa6&pd_rd_wg=Yrneb&pf_rd_p=fb1e266d-b690-4b4f-b71c-bd35e5395976&pf_rd_r=EH45FQK68P6AK806PGRN&psc=1&refRID=EH45FQK68P6AK806PGRN)would work on a Zero battery.
-Don- Auburn, CA
Issnt the output of the link, 24V??? Than It would probably not do well.
The 1N4001 diodes have a voltage drop of 1.1v. Seems like a small price to pay to ensure you do not want to power the solar panels with your battery.
Especially since the voltage of a solar panel will rise if when the load resistance is rising. (It has a maximum voltage, but still ;))
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That one takes 100v from the panels and turns it into 12 or 24v for lead-acid batteries, Don. I have something like that already. ^-^
-Crissa
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Hey,
The Diode doesn't make a difference, cause the current of solar panels is pretty much fixed (unless you go too high in voltage so that they can't keep up).
That means workout an mppt, like me, it doesn't even matter, the labels lush 7A regardless if it's at 113V or 11V (with Diode). :)
The mpp is at 116V.
I'd recommend a Diode just to be safe, technically solar cells themselves are Diodes, but the i would not want to risk anything.
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Issnt the output of the link, 24V??? Than It would probably not do well.
Yep, I now see that. Strange that they would rate the output current with the input voltage ie, 100V/50 amps. That can be confusing if 100V solar controllers really exist.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I'd recommend a Diode just to be safe, technically solar cells themselves are Diodes, but the i would not want to risk anything.
Is it the solar panels you're concerned with? The +100 volts battery voltage getting back into the solar panels and doing harm to them?
I still doubt it will cause any problem with four solar panels in series.
The voltage drop of the diode should be 0.7V if it is on fully. That the drop is 1.1V makes me think there is some charge current lost through that diode.
However, I agree it's better to be safe than sorry, especially since it's just an experiment anyway.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Issnt the output of the link, 24V??? Than It would probably not do well.
Yep, I now see that. Strange that they would rate the output current with the input voltage ie, 100V/50 amps. That can be confusing if 100V solar controllers really exist.
-Don- Auburn, CA
Don,
I think this charge controller (i posted just above, which is what got this thread moving again, I think?) has an output that matches the Zero battery pack quite well...(?)
https://www.desertcart.us/products/36071348-mabelstar-mppt-solar-charge-controller-96-v-50-a-with-led-and-lcd-display
-S
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It's not worth it, the recharge cycles on your friends battery will reduce it's life.
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Solar panels put in series like this can draw power from the battery.
It's rated at 100V because a solar controller has an input voltage and an output voltage. Means you get to charge better when under clouds.
-Crissa
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@Don I think Victor took the voltage drop from the datasheet.
I have no idea what my actual voltage drop is.
If I remember correctly, I put 2 diodes in series and 3 in parallel (6 total).
Yes I was concerned about the voltage back into the panels. Shouldn't be a problem but yea.. better safe.
@Crissa thanks, good to know I did the right thing with the Diodes!;) What do you mean by charging under clouds?
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@Don I think Victor took the voltage drop from the datasheet.
I have no idea what my actual voltage drop is.
If I remember correctly, I put 2 diodes in series and 3 in parallel (6 total).
Two diodes in series will double the voltage drop. Should then be around 1.4VDC. 0.7VDC is the voltage drop on any single silicon diode, when fully on. 0.2 volts drop on the rarer used geranium diodes. But diodes can be tricky. Such as HV diodes are really many diodes in series in the same case. So many that most ohmmeters don't supply enough voltage for them to turn on and read open when they are not.
@Crissa thanks, good to know I did the right thing with the Diodes!;) What do you mean by charging under clouds?
I think she means when there is less sunlight. The solar controller really should work best at all times, but doesn't help much during a dark night :) . And will never overcharge.
Solar panels want light, but not too much heat. The output can drop a bit on a hot but bright sunny day.
-Don- Auburn, CA (about ready to ride my Zero SR to Reno today, with a side trip and a couple of 8 KW charges on the way).
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That one takes 100v from the panels and turns it into 12 or 24v for lead-acid batteries, Don. I have something like that already. ^-^
-Crissa
What do you use it for? I also use solar, but not a lot, a couple of hundred watts of it in my RV. Used to help charge my lith house battery.
I have a separate panel for the engine L-A battery, 15 watts.
Both use controllers.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I use it to charge the car when camping or when the power is out I can operate our hotspot and power the phones and laptops. I have a 180W peak array.
-Crissa