Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Michael11]

I am facing a loss in battery capacity, which is frightening me.

My Zero SR16 ZF13.0 has not been used in the last 8 months. It was standing at about 80% SOC in my garage. Now I charged it to 100% and went out for a ride. Everything smooth, except the range estimation was rather low: at a mixed riding between 50-80km/h I typically always got at least 150km range, this time the estimate was 100-120km.

I thought that my Zero needs more usage, so I rode and charged it several times over the last days. The range estimation and the range I achieved (e.g. 56km when SOC went down to 52%) were still too low. I then remembered that I had the "Zero Voltage" app, which also shows battery capacity. So, I opened it and it showed at that time (90% SOC) "75/80Ah".

I thought  "80Ah"? That's too low! The battery should have >100Ah. So, I went to a friend of mine, who had been a local dealer but then closed his business. He pulled the logs from the bike and showed me this:

ZERO MBB> bms


****************************************
*               BMS Data               *
****************************************

*************  BMS #0  ***************
  - BMS Board Rev             :  03
  - BMS Firmware Rev          :  40
  - BMS Serial Number         : 2015_bms_48e0f7_02634
  - Battery Serial Number     : 16xxxxxx
  - CAN Rx in last second     :  167 

  - Pack SOC                  :  56%
  - Fuel Gauge                :  54%
  - Age of SOC Data           :  37 ms

  - Model Year                : 2016
  - Pack Capacity             :  81 AH
  - Pack Capacity Remaining   :  43 AH
  - Total Energy Used         : 293 KWH
  - Number Of Bricks          :   4

  - Pack Discharge Current    :   0 A
  - Pack Sum Voltage          :  103.863 V
  - Sag-Adj Pack Sum Voltage  :  103.876 V
  - Bank Voltages             :     1    2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9   10   11   12   13   14   15   16   17   18   19   20   21   22   23   24   25   26   27   28 
                              :  3705 3708 3707 3708 3710 3709 3710 3710 3709 3709 3709 3710 3708 3709 3708 3710 3709 3710 3708 3711 3710 3711 3709 3710 3710 3710 3711 3708 
  - Lowest Cell Voltage       :  3705 mV ( Cell 1 )
  - Highest Cell Voltage      :  3711 mV ( Cell 20 )
  - Pack Balance              :  5 mV
  - Lowest Cell mV            :  3706 mV
  - Age of Bank Voltage Data  :  81 ms

  - Isolation Resistance      :  32766 KOhms (0x7FFE) 
  - Least Isolated Cell       :  28 
  - Instant Iso Resistance    :  1 KOhms (0x0001)
  - Instant Least Iso Cell    :  28

                              :      0     1     2     3     4     5     6     7 
  - Pack Temps                :    17C   18C   17C   18C   18C   18C   18C   18C 
  - Lowest Present Pack Temp  :  17 C
  - Max Pack Temp This Ride   :  18 C
  - Min Pack Temp This Ride   :  17 C
  - Age of BMS Temp Data      :  79 ms

  - Min Discharge Temp        :  -30 C
  - Max Charge Temp           :  50 C
  - Min Charge Temp           :  0 C
  - Max Charge C-Rate         :  1.0
  - Min Discharge C-Rate      :  7.5
  - Discharge Scale Value     :   255/255

  - Num Charge Cycles         :  64

  - BMS Total Bike Run Time   :  00:01:54
  - BMS Clock                 :  03/27/2019 00:49:08 ( 1553672948, 0x5C9B2AF4 )
  - Age of BMS Time Data      :  192 ms

  - Age of BMS Status Data    :  205 ms
  - Discrete Throttle En      :  Enabled

So, the line "Pack capacity" shows "81 AH". The ex-dealer told me that he normally sees "104 AH" at that place. So, he concluded, he thinks my battery is defect.

Is there anybody who can confirm that? Or has some other explanation?

Thanks for any help!

[MostlyBonkers]

The question that comes to my mind is:

What's the ambient temperature you're riding in?

It's the only thing I can think of right now. Perhaps cold weather is affecting your range?

[Michael11]

Temperature is pretty normal for spring here: between 10 and 18 °C. The bike is also always prewarmed (as it is located in my garage, which is at 18°C).
I never had that in the last three years. And it is the very first time I see this "81 AH" pack capacity. 

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

The firmware adjusts the pack capacity estimation dynamically, and might need recalibration from more rides.

Try riding it more, and try using more of the capacity and then charging to full.

[Michael11]

The firmware adjusts the pack capacity estimation dynamically, and might need recalibration from more rides.

Try riding it more, and try using more of the capacity and then charging to full.

Thanks for the info. So you mean, this could just be a miscalculation of the BMS, maybe due to the long stand time?
Is the only way to verify this by driving it down to zero SOC? (Never done that before. The lowest SOC I ever had was 2%, and that was responsible for lots of sweating on my side.)

[Doug S]

It does seem, from my experience, that lower discharges trigger more "recal" activity than lesser discharges, in some way. Whether there's just a threshold battery voltage you have to cross or whatever, I'm not sure, but lower discharges do seem to have more effect.

Set up a short loop around your house and ride around it until you get to 10% or so. You shouldn't be at too much risk of having to push, and if you do, it won't be too far.

[Moto7575]

If you followed the charging instructions and if the capacity falls then you should get a new battery.
I'm just curious how not driving a bike could damage the battery... Fault in the BMS ?

[Electric Cowboy]

Not ridden in 8 months, likely needs a firmware update bad. Thats from smack in the middle of the firmware wars.

[Michael11]

Short update:

So I went to a ride yesterday, trying to drain the battery as much as possible. I started recording the battery voltages in between to be sure that I won't get stranded somewhere:

27% : 101.12V
14% : 99.50V
11% : 98.90V
 4% : 97.77V
 0% : 96.8V (135km)
95.0V (145km)

When SOC showed 0% I had traveled 135km on the full charge. I was able to get another 10km until the bike went into "limb" mode. That was fortunately only about 0.5km away from my home, so it was easily possible to get back.

At home, I charged the bike over night to full SOC. Now the "Zero Voltage app" shows "97 AH" as full capacity. So, this indeed demonstrates that "Pack Capacity" is only calculated. So, no clear indicator of what the health of the battery is.

Its calculated capacity of "97 AH" is, however, still significantly below what to expect of a 2016 13.0 battery, if I read the unofficial manual correctly (which states 100AH for a 2013 model and probably at least 10% more for the 2016er). And additionally, the range estimation is now at 142km, which is pretty close to the 145km I managed to get. This is still very much on the low side, I think. I remember that I typically had 150km at the very least, in most cases between 160 and 220km, depending on the mixture of country vs city riding.

Today I will let my local dealer do a firmware update. Then I will see over the next days, what range I am still able to reach. Now, that the "Pack Capacity" is not really a measured value, I guess it would be difficult to prove battery degradation only on the range.

[Doug S]

Brandon mentioned the "firmware wars". Welcome to the trenches.

[MVetter]

And for reference the 13kWh monolith should read 104Ah if it's happy and healthy.

[Michael11]

So, I had my dealer do a firmware update yesterday. Interestingly, immediately after the update the Pack Capacity went back to 104 Ah. The SOC was at 90% at that time. The expected remaining range jumped to 230km (which is far too much).
I then rode the bike down to about 10% SOC. I reached 153km with a remaining expected range of 21km (so altogether about 173km). The pack capacity remained at 104Ah. I am currently charging again to 100% and will then see what happens over the next days.

So far, it looks as the firmware update resolved the issue mostly.

[DPsSRnSD]

And for reference the 13kWh monolith should read 104Ah if it's happy and healthy.

Hmm, I guess I'm going to have to start paying attention to this. Today I'm reading 79Ah with the Zero Voltage app.

[alpha1511]

My bike is 2015 Zero S ZF12.5
I noticed the same problem after I charge to 100% today.
The app showed only 88 Amp hour at 100% SoC.

My MBB firmware version is 52.
And I don't know the BMS version, it seems not in the logs?

[Michael11]

My bike is 2015 Zero S ZF12.5
I noticed the same problem after I charge to 100% today.
The app showed only 88 Amp hour at 100% SoC.

My MBB firmware version is 52.
And I don't know the BMS version, it seems not in the logs?

I would recommend to follow the advice given to me in this thread. So, update the firmware and then ride the bike down to a SOC around 10% and recharge. It helped me.