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Author Topic: a charger that can't adjust voltage and current, is it compatible?  (Read 784 times)

Edipo76

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Hello, everyone,
I have a charger that provides 116V and I would like to try to connect it to zero fx 2015. Who provides the charger tells me that it can not adjust voltage and voltage: is it compatible with the Zero anyway or you risk doing damage? Isn't it the bms that should regulate the battery charge? Thank you
« Last Edit: December 14, 2018, 05:26:21 PM by Edipo76 »
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BrianTRice@gmail.com

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Re: a charger that can't adjust voltage and current, is it compatible?
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2018, 02:11:37 AM »

The BMS can operate the contactor but does not adjust the output of a charger.

116V is close to Zero's maximum voltage (100% equivalent) of 116.4V, so it sounds plausible, but the charger needs to also accommodate a range of voltages starting down at 90V or so. See https://zeromanual.com/wiki/SoC_per_Voltage

What model charger is this? Its datasheet should inform you of its capabilities and behavior.
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Doug S

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Re: a charger that can't adjust voltage and current, is it compatible?
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2018, 02:24:13 AM »

Specifically, the charger (or power supply) needs to have a well-controlled current limit within the allowable maximum charging current of the battery, and it needs to be able to run for an extended period on the current limiter. Some power supplies just shut down if the current limit is exceeded, or may overheat if you run them on the current limit for too long.

The reason is exactly what Brian said -- at the beginning of the charge cycle, when the battery isn't fully charged yet, it may only be at 90VDC, while the charger wants to put out 116VDC. The battery will accept a very large amount of current without the voltage budging much from the 90VDC level, which is why a good current limiter is necessary on the charger. If the charger doesn't have a good current limiter, it will either just shut down or it may be damaged trying to drive the batteries up to 116VDC instantaneously.

So the charger needs to be able to run on its current limit for quite a while, without overheating or malfunctioning, while the battery voltage slowly rises up to 116VDC, then maintain 116VDC so it doesn't overcharge the battery. This is called "constant current-constant voltage" mode operation, or CC-CV. A lot of battery chargers and even power supplies can do it these days, but some can't, so you have to check the data sheet to know.
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Edipo76

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Re: a charger that can't adjust voltage and current, is it compatible?
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2018, 01:20:44 PM »

thank you all, but in your opinion can I use a power supply that does not adjust the voltage or the current? I can set it to 116v fixed or other voltage, like 109.5v, but then it will always be. Will it be able to charge the battery in any situation or will it damage it?
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Edipo76

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Re: a charger that can't adjust voltage and current, is it compatible?
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2018, 02:12:47 PM »

the supplier tells me:
--------
As long as the output voltage and current are correct, you can use
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can I try in your opinion or risk to do some damage? acquaintance with other compatible power supplies but very light? something that can go well but on 2 +-3kg max
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domingo3

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Re: a charger that can't adjust voltage and current, is it compatible?
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2018, 10:54:29 PM »

I have not used anything but the onboard charger on my Zero. I do have a benchtop 20V post supply that I've used to charge 12V systems in a pinch. You can measure the voltage and set the supply for a few volts more than that, or if it has a current indication, limit it to 10 amps or so. I wouldn't recommend something like that for regular charging use.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 06:14:10 AM by domingo3 »
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BrianTRice@gmail.com

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Re: a charger that can't adjust voltage and current, is it compatible?
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2018, 12:26:05 AM »

Without a datasheet or make and model, no one can endorse this responsibly.

Using a charger not supported by Zero is easily the fastest way to void your warranty if any damage occurs. They will charge you for the damages and use this forum thread as evidence of irresponsible actions. And failure at the power train level could be extremely dangerous not just to the bike but to you and whatever is surrounding the bike at the time.

The way the voltage setting operates is more complicated than you seem prepared to deal with. Consider the charger as a regulated power supply that you want to run in parallel with the other power supply that is the battery, and you want to treat the battery as a load that you supply in a controlled manner. You have to make a safe circuit with reasonable regulator interactions on the charger side to avoid a rush of current that could damage the bike.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 12:28:30 AM by BrianTRice »
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Shadow

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Re: a charger that can't adjust voltage and current, is it compatible?
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2018, 01:32:09 PM »

...They will charge you for the damages and use this forum thread as evidence of irresponsible actions...

Have not seen any report or story of this. Source?
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BrianTRice@gmail.com

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Re: a charger that can't adjust voltage and current, is it compatible?
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2018, 01:41:25 PM »

...They will charge you for the damages and use this forum thread as evidence of irresponsible actions...

Have not seen any report or story of this. Source?

Check for any comments by Zero customer service online regarding chargers, in addition to reports by dealers. I have verified these through multiple independent sources.

Also, I know why they do it and I wouldn’t pay for damages to bikes using arbitrary chargers, either, if I were a manufacturer. Legally they have to draw a line on what they support. Engineering and the law are very careful on picking boundaries of responsibility regarding vehicles.
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Edipo76

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Re: a charger that can't adjust voltage and current, is it compatible?
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2018, 02:26:04 PM »

I'm considering several chargers. I enclose the technical data sheet of one of these, tell me what you think.  Thank you

Technical Details
Input voltage   AC220V±10%
Output voltage   DC50~300V
Input current   16A~32A
Output ripple   â‰¤0.5% (full load)
Voltage, current accuracy   â‰¤0.5%
THDI   â‰¤5%
Power factor   0.98
Maximum efficiency   95%
Protection   Over current, voltage, heat protection protection of short circuit, reverse-polarity, etc.
Communication function   RS485 or CAN
Parameter display   DC voltage, current
Safety index   insulation resistance≥200MΩ, 1500V/min

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Electric Cowboy

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Re: a charger that can't adjust voltage and current, is it compatible?
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2018, 01:11:18 AM »

First :

You can charge a bettery with anything that puts out the right voltage and current.

Second :

If you are not integrated with the BMS and running an appropriate algorithem for the specific battery design you will damage the battery Each type/make/model/chemestry of battery, and battery construction is different. There is a reason the digiNows are the only non OEM charger which does not void the warranty, this integration is imperitive, and Zero will know that you used a non bms integrated charger and the battery warranty will be voided.

Third :

Technically speaking if your bike is very old and has a non can integrated calex onboard you could replace it with a "dumb" 1kw charger without warranty issues. HOWEVER, if you have a bike or battery newer than 2014, your calex (onboard) charger has canbus, and listens to the batteries for faults and dangers required for SLOW charging.

Fourth :

Your bike is probably pretty expencive. And I have done a LOT of talks with Zero about charging and warranties and legal repurcussions... if you dont mind accidentally breaking parts that will cost you between $700 USD and $7500 USD then go for it, just be aware, it is expencive and could take months to get replacement parts as only hackers break these parts and so they are not often needed. Of course there is always the small risk of burning your bike down in the garage 6 months after you deem your setup is safe because it wasnt actually then your bike, your dog, your wife, children and mistress will all be consumed in a glorious blaze of fire because you made a simple mistake.

Fifth :

Batteries are fucking dangerious. Like for real... all of us that have worked with them or charging have been seriously injured and some of us have died on higher voltage systems. The charger you described CAN kill you if you make a mistake which, unless you are Jesus, you will. So if you plan on messing with it just always keep that in mind.

I'm not saying stop what you are doing you'll die! I am mearly providing the relevant saftey information without any filter or mask to make EVs sound safe. If they are built properly they are, but when you start hacking on them that saftey GOES OUT THE WINDOW!

I remember when Terry was first modding his bike it used to shock you all the time. Which means if your child walked upto the bike and touched it they would have gotten shocked. You wouldnt want your neighbors child to get shocked on your bike and the lawsuit that followed I bet. We all forced Terry to fix his bike, and in fact Jerimiah Johnson stepped in and helped wire it all up to saftey specs. Now Terry's bike is safer for children to be around ;)

I also remember when I made the SCv1 (A LONG TIME AGO) part of the testing Terry was doing for us got him shocked in the nuts once or twice during the rain... and so he made me fix that before we released the V1 ;) so we're even.

Closing :

Only do this if you are OK with possibly hurting other people, children, or burning down other peoples property with your bike.

Also, only do this if you are wealthy enough to accept the losses of paying those peoples medical bills and property losses along with your own legal fees, and probably theirs as it will be your hacked bikes fault. And Zero will say as much.

Warning note :

As mentioned Zero does follow these forums and take note of people doing dangerious things to their bike. I would be very surprised if there wasnt already a note on your vuin to check for this if you go in for any powertrain issues. They are very smart. Sadly a lot of people think they are stupid, and dont know all the bad shit that has been done to a bike... they do.

togo

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Re: a charger that can't adjust voltage and current, is it compatible?
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2018, 05:04:07 AM »

Woah, EC, BTR, some of that is a little over the top.

Third party products never void warranty, per se, at least in the US.
It's up to the manufacturer to prove that the third party product
damaged the vehicle, and then they ca refuse to cover *that particular
damage*.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty_Act

Edipo76, I would counsel you to a high level of caution.  What you
are contemplating is risky.  And BTR is right that it would be
insane for anyone on a forum to endorse it.  We don't know your
level of technical sophistication, and would not want to be blamed
(or sued) if it went bad, and it could go very very bad.  It could burn
down your house not just damage your motorcycle, if it was done
wrong.  People and pets could die.








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BrianTRice@gmail.com

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Re: a charger that can't adjust voltage and current, is it compatible?
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2018, 05:43:37 AM »

All I'm saying is that we don't know what equipment we're talking about, so saying yes to anything here is not something you'd really stand behind. It's the OP's responsibility to justify this decision.

FWIW what I'm trying to imply about the manufacturer and the warranty and this forum is that, if they wanted to show that powertrain damage resulted from a charger, this forum post would be a reasonable lead to follow up on, even if the owner hid the use of the charger or the identity of the charger from Zero.
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togo

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Re: a charger that can't adjust voltage and current, is it compatible?
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2018, 05:48:04 AM »

Agreed.
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Doug S

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Re: a charger that can't adjust voltage and current, is it compatible?
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2018, 09:04:07 PM »

I'd agree also. In my earlier post I was really just elaborating on the technical issues, but the reality involves far more than just the technical issues. There are some places where it's fine to tinker and experiment, and others where you really shouldn't unless you have the background of Terry, Brian or Brandon. Even then you need to be clear there are risks involved.
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