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[inhibernation]

I may be rebuilding a 40-year-old bike in the living room, but I'm still learning the intricacies of EM's.



I'd forgotten to ask the question at purchase (dealer seemed quite new to Zeros), but have been wondering what battery degradation over time would look like on my Zero.  Visible? (SOC on dash decreasing over time)   Or invisible? (SOC always 100%, but actual range decreasing)

It's a 2016 DSR demo purchased May 2017 with 600mi.  For the first few months, it would charge to 100%.

Since then, the SOC would decrease by slightly more than 1% per month.  By 3,000mi, it would charge to 92%.

At 5,000mi now, it'll charge to 85% and if I re-plug it in, it'll click on and off for 30min to get to 86%.   Starting about 500mi ago, when it's finished charging, the entire the dash will start flashing on and off with the ABS being consistent (below).

I've been completely satisfied with the performance of the bike on the road, but this charging behavior is unusual, right?.  The commute is only 12mi round trip, so I haven't really evaluated whether total true range has changed.  Checked the error codes:  25, 45, 48, 49, 45  go to 0000 once the kickstand's up; seems good.


This is today's result, re-plugged once and still connected to wall charger:


And how it looks when charged.  The time-to-charge timer seems to still expect a 100% goal, but with mine quitting at 85% now, it'll stop 30-90min earlier than that time and start flashing like this:


What does the community think?  Do I need to see a dealer even though it's driving great?

[DonTom]

In this case, it would be better if you gave the voltages when it's fully charged. It should be about 116.5 VDC. Get the Zero Voltage app and see what it says your voltage is at that full 86% SOC.

-Don-  Auburn, CA

[Electric Cowboy]

Its either an AMP HOUR bug in the code or your charger is dieing which is a common issue.

If it is the AMP HOUR bug you can tell with the Zero voltage app from the google play store. A firmware upgrade should fix it now.

If your charger is crapping out, you have to replace it with something.

[inhibernation]

  The lack of exclamation points so far is reassuring.  Sounds like I may not be able to trust the display SOC.

  Until I get the app setup, can I trust the emailed logs?
Looks like 115.9V @ 85%.
 

Despite reading through the entire official and unofficial manuals, I'm uncertain whether I can trust when the Zero app says the firmware is up to date on these 2016 models.   It gives no actual numbers to work with.  Does the bike actually talk farther than the app on my phone to know?

Thanks!

[Curt]

  The lack of exclamation points so far is reassuring.  Sounds like I may not be able to trust the display SOC.

WTF, that is not normal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But seriously, the thread http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6034.0 is about a 2016 SR with similar symptoms, and contains an mp4 video showing the same LCD display flashing, which appears to indicate a charger issue.

As the Unofficial Manual describes it:

Entire Display Flashes
    If the dash display in its entirety is flashing after keying the bike on, this indicates an onboard charger self-test failure.
    Key the bike off and wait for a few seconds and retry, and it should clear.

[JaimeC]

FWIW, my 2016 S had a little over 17,000 miles when it was totaled in an accident earlier this year.  It always charged to 100% and I never noticed any drop in range.

[Crilly]

Over the years I have had a few bikes that didn’t run right.  It is amazing what contact cleaner and dielectric grease, silicon can do.

[domingo3]

  The lack of exclamation points so far is reassuring.  Sounds like I may not be able to trust the display SOC.

  Until I get the app setup, can I trust the emailed logs?
Looks like 115.9V @ 85%.
 

Despite reading through the entire official and unofficial manuals, I'm uncertain whether I can trust when the Zero app says the firmware is up to date on these 2016 models.   It gives no actual numbers to work with.  Does the bike actually talk farther than the app on my phone to know?

Thanks!

The firmware version number can be found in the header of the logs.

[Electric Cowboy]

Logs show something odd. I'm sure Zero CS will see it and reccomend the right steps to take. Looks like a firmware upgrade is in order.

[inhibernation]

Thank you everyone for the input.

Dealer can't fit me in till the end of the month.  His prescription until then, since I pull the cord everytime it's charged per Zero rec's, is to leave it plugged in for a few days.  I don't imagine that helping the 15 month percentage decline, and it's going to keep the dash flashing like that for days (is there such thing as screen burn on these displays?).  Also reset the BMS. 

Anyway, still love the bike. 

[Richard230]

Thank you everyone for the input.

Dealer can't fit me in till the end of the month.  His prescription until then, since I pull the cord everytime it's charged per Zero rec's, is to leave it plugged in for a few days.  I don't imagine that helping the 15 month percentage decline, and it's going to keep the dash flashing like that for days (is there such thing as screen burn on these displays?).  Also reset the BMS. 

Anyway, still love the bike.

My daughter's 2014 S w/PT stops charging at 92%. But if she leaves it plugged in for a week, it will slowly increase each day and eventually show 100% on the dash.

[inhibernation]

UPDATE:  In the last month, it's lost another 2% of battery capacity (83% on dash).  Not long after the dealer pulled the logs, he informed me that Zero would be sending a replacement battery.  When I asked for more details, he passed along that  "[the] Monolith shows signs of aging and 200mV imbalance" but that he'd have to try and get any further explanation from Zero in the next few days.  It's supposed to be shipping this week and will likely be going under the knife this month.

While not catastrophic in the least, I'm disappointed there's such a significant failure at 5,000 mi, glad that there's a solution in the works, and anxious about a very competent, but largely ICE, dealer dismantling this bike.  Here's to hoping that aside from righty-tighty/lefty-loosy on a hundred fasteners, a new monolith should be relatively plug-and-play! 

[Curt]

Interesting. Current knowledge says that it's a charger self-test failure. Either that is wrong, or the charger self-tests are inappropriately sensitive to minor battery health issues.

Entire Display Flashes
    If the dash display in its entirety is flashing after keying the bike on, this indicates an onboard charger self-test failure.
    Key the bike off and wait for a few seconds and retry, and it should clear.

[Electric Cowboy]

Hey, if you want, shoot me an email at brandon@diginow.it

I can run a test on your bike to give you spome real info. I doubt that your battery is really degraded that much, but we have actual tests for this now and if needed can get it taken care of for you.

The only sad part is that we will either have to send you the parts for the test ~$120 shipping if on the east coast, then if anything needs fixing you would have to take it to the dealer. Or shippping the bike to us, i think around $300-500 shipping and then we can test and if needed fix anything here.

Like I said though, I doubt you have a 2016 which truely has an 83% battery so we could get it fixed up for you quickly if I am correct. If you did have a bad battery, it may take a couple months to fix, but we can do it.

[inhibernation]

Interesting. Current knowledge says that it's a charger self-test failure. Either that is wrong, or the charger self-tests are inappropriately sensitive to minor battery health issues.

Entire Display Flashes
    If the dash display in its entirety is flashing after keying the bike on, this indicates an onboard charger self-test failure.
    Key the bike off and wait for a few seconds and retry, and it should clear.

To clarify, the dash only flashes crazily like that when it's plugged in and the charge is complete. Like it trips up at the end and freaks out.  As soon as I unplug the bike, it goes to normal-blank and behaves normal whenever keyed on.