Topic: TC â€œSuperâ€-Chargers at 400$ - group order? (Read 2747 times)

Josh · « **on:** October 28, 2017, 02:23:12 AM »

Ok folks, I couldnâ€™t stand it anymore. I was just watching the forum until now, but there are a few things which need to be clarified regarding the Diginow chargers. They obviously try to make it look like they just reinvented charging technology, but that is far off reality.

People used Meanwells, Elteks, Emersons, Elcons and whatsoever kind of rectifiers/CC-CV chargers to charge the bikes successfully and fast â€“ you just need to rectify the current, adjust the voltage and thatâ€™s basically it. Interesting that no one ever asked before why with Diginow thereâ€™s suddenly magic needed to do that. So I went ahead and just ordered some chargers directly from the manufacturer myself out of curiosity, because I couldnâ€™t believe what was told. So those are the exact same units Diginow markets as "Superchargers". Well, I wasnâ€™t disappointed.

Those chargers are manufactured at TC Charger in China, please check the link below. They are available for different voltages and with or without CAN-Bus. I ordered the 3.3kW 96V32A variant and told TC to configure it to a CV voltage of 116,4V, which is perfect for a Zero and the stock value. I went without CAN-Bus, because itâ€™s simply not necessary and just makes the whole system less reliable. (not even Zero is using CAN for their onboard, chargers will stop running as soon as they loose CAN signal) It then just has two pins which can be shortened to turn the charger on and off. By default, AC input current is limited to 16A (perfect for Europe) and the DC output is limited to 32A and there are several input and output protection features.

http://www.tccharger.com/english/Product/T39/57.html

The only disadvantage currently is that by standard they come with metal connectors. Donâ€™t get me wrong, the connectors have a good quality and are very strong, but occupy a lot of space which is rare on a motorcycle. They offer custom cabling when ordering more than 20 units a once. (I guess thatâ€™s the only modification Diginow has done to the units)

Where it gets really interesting is pricing of those 3.3 kW units: 500$ each for less than 20 pieces, down to 400$ when ordering more than 100 at once. So for a single unit Diginow is essentially charging you a 1200$ premium, for an 11 kW setup with three units the premium increases to 2100$. Must be good times for Diginow.

Iâ€™m using them for a few weeks now, they work perfectly fine and totally reliable. They perfectly charge to 100% and apparently trigger balancing. You can easily turn them on and off via the enable contact. I recently added a small switch for that. If you donâ€™t want to be able to turn them on and off, you can just short the two pins. So then thereâ€™s actually only two cables, AC in and DC out. Please note that Iâ€™m not very skilled regarding cable work and the pics show my first try, so most of you will probably be able to make the thing look way better. The fan is always running and keeps it a low temps, they donâ€™t get hot even after an hour of charging.

So Doctorbass, togo, Erasmo, Ben Rich, Shadow and all the others â€“ Iâ€™m sorry that you wasted thousands of dollars for an inferior product, maybe you should ask Diginow for a refund.

I probably just ruined your business Diginow, and Iâ€™m sorry for that. But seriously, buying those units for 400$ each, tripling their price for the customers, telling everybody that they are â€œcustom made for Zeroâ€ and adding a CAN-Bus system which even decreases reliability just to make it look more like rocket science is something I just canâ€™t keep watching anymore. Obviously you had development costs and you need margins for cables, connectors and your labor, but there is a huge difference between a fair margin and ripping off customers.

With a proper group buy out of the forum and facebook we should easily reach 100 units to get the unit cost down to 400$. Fast charging will finally become available to anyone

Shipping is quite expensive for smaller quantities (high weight, air fright), but larger quantities will be shipped way cheaper by vessel. So forget Diginow, just place an order yourself.

Safe ride,

Josh

skoleskibe · « **Reply #1 on:** October 28, 2017, 03:45:15 AM »

Have seen them, quite interesting as they are IP 67 opposed to my Evtricity that requires weather shielding

Evtricity
4*Emerson R48 2000e rectifiers
6.6kW = 8900dkk (1809 Aus dollars)
including cables and Anderson SBS 75X connector
weight 6kg
volume 5220ccm
http://evtricity.com.au/product/double-fast-charging-kit/

Elkon
2*Elcon TC HK-J 3300W
2*3.3kW = 6100dkk (2*475US dollars)
exclude cables and Anderson SBS 75X connector
weight 6.4kg*2
Volume 4033ccm*2
http://evcomponents.com/customized-chargers/elcon-tc-hk-j-3300w-charger.html

togo · « **Reply #2 on:** October 28, 2017, 04:24:11 AM »

Yeah those do look like the Elcon 3.3kw and the diginow 3.3kw units.

My diginow SCv2 has been 100% reliable.

The diginow adds are (as I see it):

Connectors to work with your Zero (i.e. you don't have to figure that out)

Preprogramming of the bricks to limit themselves to 116.5 V DC

CNC cut block and fans to mate two units so they fit nicely under the factory tank plastics and exhaust through the triple fork.

Be careful with a DIY approach, it's easy to put two much *current* into the AUX port and blow an expensive fuse, you'll need to put it in through the controller lugs, especially on the older bikes.

But yes, there's no doubt people can put together cheaper solutions than the diginow or the evtricity. Or more expensive ones (I'm looking at you, Charge Tank). Everyone has to choose their own balance. Some will only trust OEM solutions, and some will build something that beats that with a lot of DIY. The aftermarket vendors fit somewhere inbetween. And some people live in places that have a lot more regulation as to what you can do to a vehicle.

Josh, could we work toward what's best for everyone without being to confrontational?

firepower · « **Reply #3 on:** October 28, 2017, 10:58:05 AM »

Even the original Zero Charge Tank was of Chinese design and able to be purchased, Zero had it modified for there own sales. I posted details about this in another thread.

I am just glad people are designing and selling fast chargers , You always have to sell for profit and warranty your product , this is not cheap if you want to stay in business, more options the better.

No need to bash other who are providing products and services, if you want it buy it, else don't.
Buying direct from china is always cheaper then buy local.
Thanks for sharing, like i said more options the better.

Electric Cowboy · « **Reply #4 on:** October 28, 2017, 01:55:57 PM »

If you want to try and use those, feel free

While we, Elcon and other companies all use TC as a manufacturer (most reliable in china) and use the same cases since TC makes them en masse, all of our chargers have different components.

I wish you the best of luck making a Zero compliant and compatible charger which does not void your warranty. We have worked pretty extensivly on making sure our chargers are in compliance with Zero's requirements. And come to an agreement that the use of our chargers does not void the motorcycles warranty provided we keep to the Zero requirements.

All the best

Electric Terry · « **Reply #5 on:** October 28, 2017, 02:11:49 PM »

Agreed EC, firepower and Togo. Josh, while you might want to risk your $16,000 motorcycle, many others do not. You can spend days or weeks trying to make your own cables, programming and still end up screwing something up that ruins your bike. it's just not worth it. Just get the diginow which is reliable and tested. I could go buy a motherboard, DDR4 Ram, a 7500U i7 processor, thermaltake heatsink/fan, monitor, powersupply, case, video card and keyboard and build my own computer, but in the end I think I'll just go to bestbuy and save a lot of time to get something already built that works and is done right.

If you want to do something risky or irresponsible that's fine, but I wouldn't advise recommending others to do that. If their bike overcharges cause they did something wrong, it catches fire and burns their house down, killing their family, their lawyer could print this thread, subpoena your information from the webmaster, and name you in the lawsuit for recommending and encouraging irresponsible behavior with something that can have serious consequences. A while back some genius thought he could save some money importing knock off hoverboards with cheaper done batteries and chargers. If you don't know how that turned out, I suggest you look into it.

I don't know who you are Josh, you just appeared out of nowhere on the forum. You don't even say that you own a Zero, do you? For all I know by the way you talk, you might just be some 16 year old kid without any knowledge on how the world works. So, take my advice, go save a few bucks bulk ordering designer jeans or shoes from China or anything that doesn't have the potential to kill you or screw something very expensive up, ok? Just sayin, don't be an idiot.

buutvrij for life · « **Reply #6 on:** October 28, 2017, 04:26:31 PM »

Wow, this is almost getting nasty. To me it looks like the OP just explained a few things technically, and how much it all should/could cost.

It's just a charger for a motorcycle guys. Calm down.

firepower · « **Reply #7 on:** October 28, 2017, 05:51:26 PM »

when he names members by name and makes judgement on their decisions, and also that of Diginow, none of that was necessary.

Electric Fox · « **Reply #8 on:** October 28, 2017, 08:58:13 PM »

This User named Josh is New to this Forum, only has 2 posts & the other one is bashing another user for not realizing the difference in China of the SC units.

Josh, how long have you been working on this charger? Try this technique if you want by trial & error for 6 to 12 months and work with Zero to make sure your in compliance with the warranty standards before putting everyone down with bad news bears information. How much R & D have you put into this Charger?

Sounds like I was reading something a solicitor would say just to fork up funds. What is your company name again? I need your legal warranty info too before I even think about it. We need to see videos from you through YouTube, hooking this up to your bike during your R & D.

P.S. Get back to us only when you have completed all that we have requested.-Thanks

togo · « **Reply #9 on:** October 28, 2017, 09:57:51 PM »

The thought did cross my mind that a newbie user might collect funds for a group buy and then abscond with the funds.

Anyway, Josh's solution is interesting and I posted it at https://zeromanual.com/index.php/Zero_Aftermarket

togo · « **Reply #10 on:** October 28, 2017, 10:02:00 PM »

Quote from: firepower on October 28, 2017, 05:51:26 PM

when he names members by name and makes judgement on their decisions, and also that of Diginow, none of that was necessary.

Indeed also evtricity, all the integrators being accused of taking too much profit for too little effort, and all the customers being told their purchases were stupid. OP set a very nasty tone.

Electric Terry · « **Reply #11 on:** October 29, 2017, 12:19:29 AM »

Quote from: togo on October 28, 2017, 10:02:00 PM

Quote from: firepower on October 28, 2017, 05:51:26 PM
when he names members by name and makes judgement on their decisions, and also that of Diginow, none of that was necessary.

Indeed also evtricity, all the integrators being accused of taking too much profit for too little effort, and all the customers being told their purchases were stupid. OP set a very nasty tone.

Agreed Firepower and Tony. And I may have come across harsh, but he accused Dr Bass on another thread and others of not being smart with their decisions, and this this guy has no credibility at all with 2 total posts and got me riled up as he probably has no clue what he's talking about. Or at least I can guarantee has nowhere near the knowledge of chargers or powersupplies that Doc Bass, who is a friend of mine, does.

I used to build my own electric motorcycles back in 2006 before I knew Zero existed. But once a company made a finished product I could buy, even if it cost more than perhaps I could buy the components for myself, it was much better in the long run as it was a working finished product. I know how much time and testing and components go into making the final supercharger kit, and if this Josh guy thinks he can buy bulk parts and come up with a finished product he can sell that is plug and play and tested and reliable I say DO IT!! Competition will only make the market better and better!!

I know Brandon, the main guy behind Diginow very well, and he lost over $100,000 selling the SCv1's (was not his fault, EMW breached their contract and couldn't deliver a reliable product) and has had to borrow $80,000 to begin the SCv2 project and has not been able to make any progress on paying back this loan yet. So when the OP claims that it must be "good times for Diginow" let me just say you have no idea what the F*** you are talking about period!! How many successful businesses have you run? I can tell none because you have no idea how anything with business works or the time things take to do.

Sorry for losing my composure again, but I can't stand someone who on their first post, doesn't introduce themselves, doesn't ask any questions to the group, and just starts bashing people left and right and claiming he is the best and knows more than everybody else when he obviously doesn't. I've lost all patience for people who act like this because I have to hear our Commander in Chief do it every day which is already too much for me.

MrDude_1 · « **Reply #12 on:** October 29, 2017, 01:15:17 AM »

Even without the SCv1 issues (as I know nothing about it) the price is exactly where I would expect it.

I'll do it with smaller numbers to explain how I think of it.
You take your product, say a $100 component.
Add in the parts you need to tweak it say $25
Add in your time so its worth doing.. say another $25.

So this is where most people think it costs $150. They have never sold things to the public before.
You will get packages "lost" in the mail. You will get loudmouth internet posters that break your product by doing something stupid, and you are expected to send them a replacement. You will occasionally get legit issues. Shipping will cost more occasionally. So now you need to figure out much much harder math. You are not out to ream the customer, but you know you need more than the 150 to cover all this, along with any R&D that you need to keep the lights out when sales start to drop down.
Next thing you know, you're selling it for $230. Anyone that sees the main component THINKS its only $100. they could probably do it themselves. Its easy to make stuff cheaper yourself. You dont have to worry about returns. You dont have to worry about keeping the lights on until the next product makes it to market. If you screw it up, its likely you are the same jerk that will try to use the motorcycle warranty to cover it. lol.

So yeah. you can do it cheaper. I can do it cheaper too. Probably cheaper then you. I have a meanwell stack that can charge it. And some server supplies. and a huge bench supply... hell I have some SiC MOSFETs that could be made into an even more compact and powerful charger for much cheaper... if you count my time for nothing and I was just making it for myself. Its just a CC/CV power supply. right?

except for all those unlikely things like voltage spikes, cap surge, etc.. but we can ignore them if we know nothing about them, if it breaks, its not our problem... zero has a warranty. right?

The cost is fair. Yes the parts are out there cheaper. You could always DIY it. Maybe if you change your tone from "these guys are ripping you off" to "hey you can DIY a similar charger" everyone would respect you a bit more and not get upset.
its your tone.

cheesymac47 · « **Reply #13 on:** October 29, 2017, 03:15:42 AM »

As a hopefully future owner of a Zero, I also hope to have fast charging.

Even if this component is what he says it is, I will never join in a buy with him because if that attitude. I'd rather pay the higher unit cost to NOT deal with that.

That said, I think it is also far better to support someone who is familiar with my bike and his business supporting it. The "overpriced" product supports warranty claims on that product and future development of newer product.

I'd rather not support the behavior of someone who seems to have a beef beyond the product, insulting the customers of the product is a sure way to make sure they are never customers of yours.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

NEW2elec · « **Reply #14 on:** October 29, 2017, 04:17:24 AM »

Wow don't kick an ant hill huh?

No opinion on the product being good or bad but what was suggested was a "group buy" so he's not selling anything to anyone just looking for a bulk buy price drop. No customers no business. Everybody would be on their own once they came over.

"You must do what you feel is right oh course"
Obi-wan Kenobi

ElectricMotorcycleForum.com

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Author Topic: TC â€œSuperâ€-Chargers at 400$ - group order? (Read 2747 times)

Josh

TC â€œSuperâ€-Chargers at 400$ - group order?

skoleskibe

Re: TC â€œSuperâ€-Chargers at 400$ - group order?

togo

Re: TC â€œSuperâ€-Chargers at 400$ - group order?

firepower

Re: TC â€œSuperâ€-Chargers at 400$ - group order?

Electric Cowboy

Re: TC â€œSuperâ€-Chargers at 400$ - group order?

Electric Terry

Re: TC â€œSuperâ€-Chargers at 400$ - group order?

buutvrij for life

Re: TC â€œSuperâ€-Chargers at 400$ - group order?

firepower

Re: TC â€œSuperâ€-Chargers at 400$ - group order?

Electric Fox

Re: TC â€œSuperâ€-Chargers at 400$ - group order?

togo

Re: TC â€œSuperâ€-Chargers at 400$ - group order?

togo

Re: TC â€œSuperâ€-Chargers at 400$ - group order?

Electric Terry

Re: TC â€œSuperâ€-Chargers at 400$ - group order?

MrDude_1

Re: TC â€œSuperâ€-Chargers at 400$ - group order?

cheesymac47

Re: TC â€œSuperâ€-Chargers at 400$ - group order?

NEW2elec

Re: TC â€œSuperâ€-Chargers at 400$ - group order?

ElectricMotorcycleForum.com

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Author Topic: TC â€œSuperâ€-Chargers at 400$ - group order? (Read 2747 times)

Author Topic: TC â€œSuperâ€-Chargers at 400$ - group order? (Read 2747 times)