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Author Topic: Perpetual Motion concepts thread  (Read 967 times)

Testpilot1

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Perpetual Motion concepts thread
« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2017, 08:07:06 PM »

Quote
.if you read carefully I quoted Tesla

Hmm. Tesla was a gifted chap, but lived in a time before we really got to grasp with the details of Quantum dynamics, so his understanding of what ZPE entails was very limited, as such his views on ZPE are of periphery and generally historical interest only. Bear in mind the very early foundational models for ZPE was mostly developed in the 1930's only a few years before Tesla's death, and the most important breakthrough in demonstrating its existence occurred after Tesla's death.

Given the above, Tesla did speculate on the idea of a cosmic force that sounds like the quantum ZPE however Tesla did not know if a ZPE like effect was capable of producing work and he entertained the idea that it was incapable of doing so.

And Tesla was way ahead of his time, ask Roger Shawyer..................

https://www.ipo.gov.uk/p-find-publication-getPDF.pdf?PatentNo=GB2493361&DocType=B&JournalNumber=6694

http://emdrive.com/


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« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 08:03:30 PM by Testpilot1 »
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Justin Andrews

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Re: Perpetual Motion concepts thread
« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2017, 09:30:19 PM »

Yes, but Tesla hypothesised the universal force (ZPE?) was kinetic, and he did not say it was actually possible to extract energy from it, in fact he was quite agnostic on that front, which suggested he had no evidence on the matter. Not really a ringing endorsement.
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Testpilot1

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Perpetual Motion concepts thread
« Reply #47 on: October 12, 2017, 06:38:55 PM »

Yes, but Tesla hypothesised the universal force (ZPE?) was kinetic, and he did not say it was actually possible to extract energy from it, in fact he was quite agnostic on that front, which suggested he had no evidence on the matter. Not really a ringing endorsement.

Quote


NASA has conducted long-awaited experiments to prove that the fabled space drive, capable of generating its own thrust and breaking a fundamental law of physics, works. If the find survives fresh scrutiny, space ship construction will be revolutionized.

The drive’s creator, British scientist Roger Shawyer, has been facing criticism since his 2006 claims, based on the premise that thrust can be created without huge thrusters, instead using electricity to direct microwaves inside a special container.

Shawyer’s company, SPR Ltd., writes that it has “demonstrated a remarkable new space propulsion technology. [It] has successfully tested both an experimental thruster and a demonstrator engine which use patented microwave technology to convert electrical energy directly into thrust. No propellant is used in the conversion process. Thrust is produced by the amplification of the radiation pressure of an electromagnetic wave propagated through a resonant waveguide assembly.”

In short, if the results hold up, humanity can say goodbye to huge energy consumption costs associated with space travel, and say hello to deep-space missions and distant world exploration at a fraction of the cost and at 100 times the speed.

But since its inception, the revolutionary drive had appeared to be impossible because it breaks the laws of the conservation of momentum. Put simply, acceleration in any rocket engine is achieved by a large amount of fuel bursting out of the thrusters and pushing the vessel forward. The drive promises to change this forever by creating its own momentum.

An independent, peer-reviewed Chinese team was the first to try and replicated the results, and confirmed that their own EmDrive worked in papers published on three occasions between 2008 and 2012. But the skepticism didn’t end there. So, to test the technology on different soil, NASA was brought in.

This was needed to reassure the scientific community that past results in which the apparent violations of the laws of physics were side effect of interference from the actual device, which messed with the measuring equipment.

Five of the space agency’s researchers set about to replicate the so-called EmDrive with another one they called the Cannae Drive, after they were convinced to put it to the test by its creator, American scientist Guido Fetta. The results were presented on July 30 at the 50th Joint Propulsion Conference.

With its paper, entitled ‘Anomalous Thrust Production from an RF [radio frequency] Test Device Measured on a Low-Thrust Torsion Pendulum’, the scientists describe the work carried out over six days, as they set up the equipment, and the two days spent achieving results.

To do this, they created a ‘null drive’ – a replica of the real drive, but built in a way that would make it unusable. Another device was then built to simulate the load on the engine.

Although the new results produced much less micronewtons (30-50) than the Chinese tests, NASA finally had its confirmation.

"Test results indicate that the RF resonant cavity thruster design, which is unique as an electric propulsion device, is producing a force that is not attributable to any classical electromagnetic phenomenon and therefore is potentially demonstrating an interaction with the quantum vacuum virtual plasma," the space agency states in the paper.

The one thing the paper does not wish to do is explain how the drive works, instead offering quantifiable results and the procedures used to achieve them.

However, given that we now have several tests all confirming that thrust can be generated out of thin air, a radically different future awaits humanity. In it, the immense costs of satellites, space ships and stations could be reduced to a mere fraction of what was previously thought. This should open the world up to exciting deep-space missions and enable us to survive a virtual lifetime in space.

Even more amazing, new propulsion technology based on the EmDrive should take space travel to amazing speeds, enabling humanity to reach distant worlds much more quickly.

http://emdrive.com/

https://www.ipo.gov.uk/p-find-publication-getPDF.pdf?PatentNo=GB2493361&DocType=B&JournalNumber=6694


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« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 06:42:56 PM by Testpilot1 »
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Justin Andrews

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Re: Perpetual Motion concepts thread
« Reply #48 on: October 12, 2017, 08:01:27 PM »

I'm highly aware of the EM drive and have followed Paul March and Sonny Whites over at Eagleworks labs work on it as well, I find how Shawer interpreted the Eagleworks tests to be amusing at best...

That the null device produced an effect on the thrust balance was pretty much a fatal stab in the heart to the EM-Drive and a huge disappointment to me, as it basically invalidates Rogers interpretation of how the drive works. (This was the entire reason to build the null drive in the first place). It's generally suspected that the device is thermally heating up and producing false readings on the thrust balance, I'm aware of tests that are on going to confirm/rule out that possibility at the moment. But its notable that both the Chinese and Eagleworks have given up further research into the device at this time. There is also a very outside possibility that the EM Drive is exploiting an actual effect, but if so then their is a better way to do this (possibly) than the EM Drive, this effect is the so called "mach effect", its quite possbile that Shawer has accidentally created an inefficient Mach thruster, and is one interpretation by Paul March as to why the null device might have caused the thrust balance to register. However its not impossible that the EM Drive works how Shawer believes it does, its just not that likely either... ;)

If you are really interested in propellentless drives, then I suggest looking into Woodward and Fearns so called "mach effect" thruster, which has a much better grounding in physics, and while still not confirmed as an actual effect, does look to be less of a bust than the EM Drive.

Prof Tajmar's paper on how it might work and the engineering required
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319974638_Mach-Effect_thruster_model

Heidi Fearns primer on the latest research results
https://www.nasa.gov/directorates/spacetech/niac/2017_Phase_I_Phase_II/Mach_Effects_for_In_Space_Propulsion_Interstellar_Mission

A long rambling argument over the feasibility of the Mach Effect Thruster.
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31037.0


As a final thought on the Mach effect. If it does work (still a big if) and if it works the way it is believed too (an even bigger if) then there is a really interesting consequence, in that it is in theory capable of generating negative mass. This is believed to be the critical ingredient for creating wormholes (again a big if here, as we don't know if this is actually true) if these three *ifs* are all actually true. Then we may actually be truely on the cusp of actual feasible (non FTL) interstellar travel. But I caution this is a *terribly* big IF (and if Stephen Hawking is wrong about radiation interference between looped wormholes collapsing the pair, then we are also on the cusp of Time Travel, though frankly I think that really is unlikely)

« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 08:25:09 PM by Justin Andrews »
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Testpilot1

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Perpetual Motion concepts thread
« Reply #49 on: October 12, 2017, 09:50:18 PM »

I'm highly aware of the EM drive and have followed Paul March and Sonny Whites over at Eagleworks labs work on it as well, I find how Shawer interpreted the Eagleworks tests to be amusing at best...

That the null device produced an effect on the thrust balance was pretty much a fatal stab in the heart to the EM-Drive and a huge disappointment to me, as it basically invalidates Rogers interpretation of how the drive works. (This was the entire reason to build the null drive in the first place). It's generally suspected that the device is thermally heating up and producing false readings on the thrust balance, I'm aware of tests that are on going to confirm/rule out that possibility at the moment. But its notable that both the Chinese and Eagleworks have given up further research into the device at this time. There is also a very outside possibility that the EM Drive is exploiting an actual effect, but if so then their is a better way to do this (possibly) than the EM Drive, this effect is the so called "mach effect", its quite possbile that Shawer has accidentally created an inefficient Mach thruster, and is one interpretation by Paul March as to why the null device might have caused the thrust balance to register. However its not impossible that the EM Drive works how Shawer believes it does, its just not that likely either... ;)

If you are really interested in propellentless drives, then I suggest looking into Woodward and Fearns so called "mach effect" thruster, which has a much better grounding in physics, and while still not confirmed as an actual effect, does look to be less of a bust than the EM Drive.

Prof Tajmar's paper on how it might work and the engineering required
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319974638_Mach-Effect_thruster_model

Heidi Fearns primer on the latest research results
https://www.nasa.gov/directorates/spacetech/niac/2017_Phase_I_Phase_II/Mach_Effects_for_In_Space_Propulsion_Interstellar_Mission

A long rambling argument over the feasibility of the Mach Effect Thruster.
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31037.0


As a final thought on the Mach effect. If it does work (still a big if) and if it works the way it is believed too (an even bigger if) then there is a really interesting consequence, in that it is in theory capable of generating negative mass. This is believed to be the critical ingredient for creating wormholes (again a big if here, as we don't know if this is actually true) if these three *ifs* are all actually true. Then we may actually be truely on the cusp of actual feasible (non FTL) interstellar travel. But I caution this is a *terribly* big IF (and if Stephen Hawking is wrong about radiation interference between looped wormholes collapsing the pair, then we are also on the cusp of Time Travel, though frankly I think that really is unlikely)

Technology Transfer Contract between SPR Ltd / Ministry of Defence, from my previous post, and Boeing.............

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7kgKijo-p0idV9tcmVIVzZrdTQ/view


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« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 12:39:12 AM by Testpilot1 »
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Justin Andrews

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Re: Perpetual Motion concepts thread
« Reply #50 on: October 13, 2017, 07:41:10 PM »

Yeah, Boeing looked into a good few years back, failed to repro the results and dropped it. This is fairly common knowledge.

Boeing do a lot of this low cost, low probability research, heck they even looked at Rossi's stuff!
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 07:43:06 PM by Justin Andrews »
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Richard230

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Re: Perpetual Motion concepts thread
« Reply #51 on: October 13, 2017, 07:46:53 PM »

I am starting to think that this thread is an example of "perpetual motion".   ::)
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Testpilot1

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Perpetual Motion concepts thread
« Reply #52 on: October 14, 2017, 11:13:44 PM »

I am starting to think that this thread is an example of "perpetual motion".   ::)


I like it richard.......so to keep the motion going, I beg to fifer Justin

https://arc.aiaa.org/doi/10.2514/1.B36120

It's just as common knowledge also that Boeing/ US government maybe testing the em drive on the X-37B.

If you consider that the transfer of information was back in 2007 and the 10 year anniversary/deadline is nearly up on that.......... then just last month Roger Shawyers patent for the device in the UK was published, I believe that's highly unlikely.



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« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 12:46:08 PM by Testpilot1 »
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Justin Andrews

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Re: Perpetual Motion concepts thread
« Reply #53 on: October 16, 2017, 07:27:58 PM »

I am starting to think that this thread is an example of "perpetual motion".   ::)


I like it richard.......so to keep the motion going, I beg to fifer Justin

https://arc.aiaa.org/doi/10.2514/1.B36120

It's just as common knowledge also that Boeing/ US government maybe testing the em drive on the X-37B.

If you consider that the transfer of information was back in 2007 and the 10 year anniversary/deadline is nearly up on that.......... then just last month Roger Shawyers patent for the device in the UK was published, I believe that's highly unlikely.



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You can quote as many Eagleworks papers as you like, but that paper is the one that casts doubts on if EM-Drive actually works the way Shawer thanks it does.
During the test summaries they quite clearly point out that the thrust was likely due to CG loading due to thermal effects.

Important quotes
Forward test
"This displacement was also in the same direction as that due to the CG shift from thermal effects."

Reverse Test
"As the test article assembly was rotated by 180 deg, this displacement was also in the same direction as that due to the CG shift from thermal effects."

Null Test (device rotated to make any thrust detection impossible due to how the balance works)
"the CG shift from thermal expansion caused a downward drift in the optical displacement sensor."

In all cases the tests suggest that the thrust signal is caused by a shift in the CG of the device due to thermal expansion.
So no definite signal was detected.

In their conclusions they mention the thermal effects, and how to go about making sure any CG shift does not influence the balance.

As for the X-35B test Yeah I remember that excitement, however it turned out to be an improved standard Ion drive. I have a good friend in the field (actually he's a cubesat plasma thruster specialist) and he burst my bubble there.


I'm not saying the EM-Drive does'nt work, but I am pointing out that if it does work has not yet been confirmed, it's from the data gained by the experiments run so far there are a lot of doubts about its viability.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 07:48:44 PM by Justin Andrews »
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