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Author Topic: Perpetual Motion concepts thread  (Read 964 times)

Testpilot1

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Re: Perpetual Motion concepts thread
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2017, 10:29:34 PM »

Okay, we've had our fun, we need to quit feeding the troll now.

Oh, and just to be clear, I for one never said there wasn't such a thing as "zero point energy". Modern Physics is no more sure than Einstein was about the existence of his "cosmological constant" -- which is another term for "zero point energy". But it's VERY clear it can't be used to do any work. Think of a lake full of water, which could be used to turn a water wheel, giving you energy. But you have to have someplace LOWER to drain the water too, or the water won't move. Water only flows from a place of higher potential energy to a place of lower potential energy. If all of space is pervaded with "zero point energy", where could you possibly "drain" it to in order to get any work out of it?

According to the rules of physics you've been programmed with since school........once again Thomas Bearden explains it best


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actual perpetual motion!
« Reply #31 on: September 23, 2017, 02:53:46 AM »

Sort of... the fully-loaded truck going downhill makes more juice than it takes for the empty truck to go back up the hill.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/09/this-cement-quarry-dump-truck-will-be-the-worlds-biggest-electric-vehicle/
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Re: Perpetual Motion concepts thread
« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2017, 06:11:48 AM »

Okay, we've had our fun, we need to quit feeding the troll now.

I was done a while ago.  :o ;D ::)
it cant be done, it was never started.
just like the potential energy of zero point...
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Justin Andrews

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Re: Perpetual Motion concepts thread
« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2017, 04:57:01 PM »


once again Thomas Bearden explains it best


Who does'nt sound like he's one raisin short of a fruitcake at all.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Thomas_E._Bearden

Quote
Bearden has claimed that Russia used various other (ed: earthquake?) technologies in the 1980s to cause the destruction of the Space Shuttle Challenger ... He believes the Japanese Yakuza used this technology to trigger the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake, and the resulting tsunami, which killed approximately 200,000 people, and that the Yakuza is also plotting to trigger the Yellowstone Supervolcano, which would kill the majority of the US population.
source: http://www.cheniere.org/correspondence/012105.htm

Quote
Bearden has maintained that scalar waves can be used to create the high and low-pressure zones and influence the weather. He claims that the KGB, in collaboration with the Yakuza and the Aum Shinrikyo cult, have been secretly influencing the weather since 1990, and explicitly blames the Yakuza for Hurricane Katrina.
source: http://www.cheniere.org/correspondence/041407.htm

Hey look! TWA-800 was brought down by the KGB/Yakuza too!
Source: http://www.cheniere.org/misc/tw800.htm

Totally Looney tunes...
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 05:15:25 PM by Justin Andrews »
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Testpilot1

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Perpetual Motion concepts thread
« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2017, 05:41:44 PM »


once again Thomas Bearden explains it best


Who does'nt sound like he's one raisin short of a fruitcake at all.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Thomas_E._Bearden

Quote
Bearden has claimed that Russia used various other (ed: earthquake?) technologies in the 1980s to cause the destruction of the Space Shuttle Challenger ... He believes the Japanese Yakuza used this technology to trigger the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake, and the resulting tsunami, which killed approximately 200,000 people, and that the Yakuza is also plotting to trigger the Yellowstone Supervolcano, which would kill the majority of the US population.
source: http://www.cheniere.org/correspondence/012105.htm

Quote
Bearden has maintained that scalar waves can be used to create the high and low-pressure zones and influence the weather. He claims that the KGB, in collaboration with the Yakuza and the Aum Shinrikyo cult, have been secretly influencing the weather since 1990, and explicitly blames the Yakuza for Hurricane Katrina.
source: http://www.cheniere.org/correspondence/041407.htm

Hey look! TWA-800 was brought down by the KGB/Yakuza too!
Source: http://www.cheniere.org/misc/tw800.htm

Totally Looney tunes...

And Rationalwiki challenges anything that goes against the conventional laws of science,against the curriculum that the system wants you to obey.
Anyone that does they try to discredit, see your own links.

For more credible evidence on Thomas Bearden you may want to try this CIA link,come on Justin you believed in ZPE back in the day



https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP96-00788R001900680014-4.pdf


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« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 06:35:13 PM by Testpilot1 »
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Justin Andrews

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Re: Perpetual Motion concepts thread
« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2017, 08:24:53 PM »

And I've not changed my point of view.  Read my comment again, this time more carefully.
I accept the existence of Zero point energy, after all it underpins Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.
I can do a quick experiment in my kitchen to demonstrate that a ZPE like effect exists..
However read my comment again, and you'll see that I point out, quite clearly, that you cannot extract any useful work (that is energy) from ZPE.


And while you can say what you want about rationalwiki, the actual sources are from Beardens own website, the guy is a nutjob, and you are doing yourself a major disservice quoting him.


Another way is to look at this all from the point of view of a ruthless capitalist. The first company to get a system for extracting ZPE energy working, and slap a patent on it, will become MASSIVELY rich, well beyond the wealth of coal or oil, to say that an energy corporation would suppress ZPE research is to admit that the big energy companies are not really that interested in ruthlessly making as much profit as possible... ;)

« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 08:28:07 PM by Justin Andrews »
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Doug S

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Re: Perpetual Motion concepts thread
« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2017, 08:38:32 PM »

I find it fascinating that you're trying to argue from authority, but ignoring every single ACTUAL authority in the field of Physics. Thomas Bearden is acknowledged by NOBODY in the field, and has absolutely no authority to put forward an argument. But you're accepting his concepts ahead of giants in the field like Planck, Einstein, Heisenberg, von Neumann, Feynman, Wheeler, Dirac, Casimir and Hawking (among others), all of whom acknowledge(d) that zero point energy exists, but cannot be used to perform work because it represents the ground state of a system.

Why do you insist we should accept Bearden's authority above those of all the other ACTUAL Physicists? Other than liking the flavor of his Kool-aid, that is.
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Testpilot1

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Re: Perpetual Motion concepts thread
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2017, 08:14:04 PM »

Yeah I got that Justin, but your wrong about the work.
The actual sources are clips from Beardens web site which rationalwiki are attempting to discredit, because it doesn't suit the academic agenda, the primary source is from rationalwiki.

Your ignorance is astonishing guys. It's a known fact that some of your " ACTUAL " physicists  theories were not fully developed and have been left wanting.The laws of physics are being re written and many of these old theories have now become outdated.

http://www.integrityresearchinstitute.org/ZPEnergy/ZPEpaper.html

Are you seriously suggesting that since 1859 there has been no further development for personal transportation than the ICE and batteries,and that technology hasn't been suppressed.
I note you didn't mention the main man Tesla , did you learn about him at school ? No,the UK curriculum certainly doesn't teach it.They teach you what they want you to know.

Your point about the military industrial complex is baffling............that's the whole point ZPE can only be  released to benefit humanity by open source, it will never be patented for anything other than military/ space use as Bearden describes. Once the knowledge was out there in the public domain,there would be no money in it. You would only need the one device per household and it would wipe out the need for dependency on fossil fuels again.

My wife's uncle worked for NASA, I can assure you ZPE energy is real and they are getting it to do work.

Quote:
History was made on 12-31-96 when for the first time ever, ZPE was the subject of a U. S. patent (#5,590,031). Dr. Frank Mead, from Edwards AFB, has designed receivers to be spherical collectors of zero point radiation with hemisphere reflectors of beat frequencies. He states that
"zero point electromagnetic radiation energy which may potentially be used to power interplanetary craft as well as provide for society’s other needs has remained unharnessed."


Next you'll be saying the Iraq war was because of weapons of mass destruction and not oil, that the twin towers was not a demolition job, and that dolphin square never happened .............these are the lengths that the military industrial complex will goto to guarantee their own survival.

So thankyou for your concerns, but no disservice done.




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Justin Andrews

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Re: Perpetual Motion concepts thread
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2017, 10:20:41 PM »

Quote
You would only need the one device per household
Do you even begin to understand how *much* money there is in that, tens of millions of homes, hundreds of millions of cars. The first person to bring this to market will make Bill Gates look like a pauper.

But forget that, the first country to develop and harness it will be literally strategically untouchable, their energy production capacity will eclipse the rest of the globe, by orders of magnitude, it'll make the power gap that Great Britain enjoyed in the 19th century by being the first to mass utilise steam look like a geo-strategic joke.

Seriously, the very fact this device is not in every ship, every tank, every aircraft and ESPECIALLY transport vehicle in the US military inventory is a huge clue that it does not exist.

Consider that the power generation capabilities are such that the fact that every power plant in the US has not already been retro fitted with this technology, would have to considered the greatest strategic blunder in the history of the world.


Are you honestly suggesting that the industrial-military complex of the US is not *that* interested in world hegemony? Because power generation is the very driving force behind military domination. The country that has the most power generation has the ability to construct the best logistics systems, and its logistics that wins wars, not fancy weapons.


I kinda get from your 9-11 comment, that you like, and are kinda into conspiracy theories though, so I can see why you find things like ZPE compelling. 
But the very evidence that ZPE is not is widespread military and industrial use, is a massive tell that even if it is possible to extract work from the quantum ground state, no one knows how to do it in a manner that's any better than any existing technology.

Finally suggesting that classical physicists are not interested in researching it, even working on how to extract energy, is laughably wrong, Dr Sonny White at the Nasa Eagleworks labs, for example, is very interested in looking into zero state drive devices (EM-Drive) though the results of his tests have been disappointing, and any actual results from the EMDrive may also be a side effect of the proposed hypothetical Woodwood effect (itself a contentious area of research)
And YES I am very aware there is research into the potential for ZPE being an energy source, going on around the world, as it's a low probability/high reward area of research, much in the same way inertial confinement fusion research is. As the first nation to crack it gets a massive boost on the geopolitical/geostrategic stage, and no serious country is going to ignore that possibility.

Right now the state of research is, "we can't any more work from it than we put in", just like inertial confinement is at the "cusp losses mean its unlikely to work" or EM-Drives is "its probably mass shifting on the balance due to thermal expansion" or the Woodwood effect is "probably coupling with the balance device"

So I'd suggest if you want to convince anyone here of any potential of power from ZPE, you really should look more into the respectable work being done in the field and quote that, and stay away from quoting the nutters.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 10:36:03 PM by Justin Andrews »
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Justin Andrews

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Re: Perpetual Motion concepts thread
« Reply #39 on: September 27, 2017, 01:55:42 PM »

Its alright, I'm personally having a ball.

The worrying thing about people wanting stuff like ZPE generation is they haven't thought through the consequences of what it means if we do get it, and its open source and easily available.

Usable ZPE generators go hand in hand with concepts such as the EM-Drive which operates on similar principles, and when you couple generators which require no fuel with drives that require no onboard propellent. So let's say that both the ZPE generator and EM-Drive are practical, then, if you are sufficiently evil, then what you get a new class of weapon that makes nuclear bombs look literally like firecrackers.

While I could explain how increadably bad this weapon is.
Please allow scifi author's Charles Pelligrino and George Zebrowski to put it better than I ever could:

Quote
In the forests below, lakes caught the first rays of the rising Sun and threw them back into space. Abandoning the two-dimensional sprawl of twentieth-century cities, Sri Lanka Tower, and others like it, had been erected in the world's rain forests and farmlands, leaving the countryside virtually uninhabited. Even in Africa, where more than a hundred city arcologies had risen, nature was beginning to renew itself. It was a good day to be alive, she told herself, taking in the peace of the garden. Then, looking east, she saw it coming -- at least her eyes began to register it -- but her optic nerves did not last long enough to transmit what the eyes had seen.

It was quite small for what it could do -- small enough to fit into an average-sized living room -- but it was moving at 92 percent of light speed when it touched Earth's atmosphere. A spear point of light appeared, so intense that the air below snapped away from it, creating a low-density tunnel through which the object descended. The walls of the tunnel were a plasma boundary layer, six and a half kilometers wide and more than 160 deep -- the flaming spear that Virginia's eyes began to register -- with every square foot of its surface radiating a trillion watts, and still its destructive potential was but fractionally spent.

Thirty-three kilometers above the Indian Ocean, the point began to encounter too much air. It tunneled down only eight kilometers more, then stalled and detonated, less than two-thousandths of a second after crossing the orbits of Earth's nearest artificial satellites.

Virginia was more than three hundred kilometers away when the light burst toward her. Every nerve ending in her body began to record a strange, prickling sensation -- the sheer pressure of photons trying to push her backward. No shadows were cast anywhere in the tower, so bright was the glare. It pierced walls, ceramic beams, notepads, and people -- four hundred thousand people. The maglev terminal connecting Sri Lanka Tower to London and Sydney, the waste treatment centers that sustained the lakes and farms, all the shops, theaters, and apartments liquefied instantly. The structure began to slip and crash like a giant waterfall, but gravity could not yank it down fast enough. The Tower became vapor before it could fall half a meter. At the vanished city's feet, the trees of the forest were no longer able to cast shadows; they had themselves become long shadows of carbonized dust on the ground.

In Kandy and Columbo, where sidewalks steamed, the relativistic onslaught was unfinished. The electromagnetic pulse alone killed every living thing as far away as Bombay and the Maldives. All of India south of the Godavari River became an instant microwave oven. Nearer the epicenter, Demon Rock glowed with a fierce red heat, then fractured down its center, as if to herald the second coming of the tyrant it memorialized. The air blast followed, surging out of the Indian Ocean -- faster than sound -- flattening whatever still stood. As it slashed north through Jaffna and Madurai, the wave front was met and overpowered by shocks rushing out from strikes in central and southern India.


Its called a relativistic weapon, and if you don't have to worry about sustained power generation or on board propellant, they are actually quite easy to make (the reason we can't make them is because without the two aforementioned requirements, they are in fact nearly impossible to make)
Basically its a mass driver on a LOT of steroids, all you need to do is keep accelerating a chunk of iron long enough, something that a ZPE generator would make fairly easy...

So personally I kinda hope that ZPE generators are a bust, if simply because terrorists sure could have a lot more firepower with one...

(Tl:dr - Friends don't let friends have unlimited power generation and/or reactionless drives)
« Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 02:01:05 PM by Justin Andrews »
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Re: Perpetual Motion concepts thread
« Reply #40 on: September 28, 2017, 07:58:10 AM »

Its alright, I'm personally having a ball.

The worrying thing about people wanting stuff like ZPE generation is they haven't thought through the consequences of what it means if we do get it, and its open source and easily available.

Usable ZPE generators go hand in hand with concepts such as the EM-Drive which operates on similar principles, and when you couple generators which require no fuel with drives that require no onboard propellent. So let's say that both the ZPE generator and EM-Drive are practical, then, if you are sufficiently evil, then what you get a new class of weapon that makes nuclear bombs look literally like firecrackers.

While I could explain how increadably bad this weapon is.
Please allow scifi author's Charles Pelligrino and George Zebrowski to put it better than I ever could:

Quote
In the forests below, lakes caught the first rays of the rising Sun and threw them back into space. Abandoning the two-dimensional sprawl of twentieth-century cities, Sri Lanka Tower, and others like it, had been erected in the world's rain forests and farmlands, leaving the countryside virtually uninhabited. Even in Africa, where more than a hundred city arcologies had risen, nature was beginning to renew itself. It was a good day to be alive, she told herself, taking in the peace of the garden. Then, looking east, she saw it coming -- at least her eyes began to register it -- but her optic nerves did not last long enough to transmit what the eyes had seen.

It was quite small for what it could do -- small enough to fit into an average-sized living room -- but it was moving at 92 percent of light speed when it touched Earth's atmosphere. A spear point of light appeared, so intense that the air below snapped away from it, creating a low-density tunnel through which the object descended. The walls of the tunnel were a plasma boundary layer, six and a half kilometers wide and more than 160 deep -- the flaming spear that Virginia's eyes began to register -- with every square foot of its surface radiating a trillion watts, and still its destructive potential was but fractionally spent.

Thirty-three kilometers above the Indian Ocean, the point began to encounter too much air. It tunneled down only eight kilometers more, then stalled and detonated, less than two-thousandths of a second after crossing the orbits of Earth's nearest artificial satellites.

Virginia was more than three hundred kilometers away when the light burst toward her. Every nerve ending in her body began to record a strange, prickling sensation -- the sheer pressure of photons trying to push her backward. No shadows were cast anywhere in the tower, so bright was the glare. It pierced walls, ceramic beams, notepads, and people -- four hundred thousand people. The maglev terminal connecting Sri Lanka Tower to London and Sydney, the waste treatment centers that sustained the lakes and farms, all the shops, theaters, and apartments liquefied instantly. The structure began to slip and crash like a giant waterfall, but gravity could not yank it down fast enough. The Tower became vapor before it could fall half a meter. At the vanished city's feet, the trees of the forest were no longer able to cast shadows; they had themselves become long shadows of carbonized dust on the ground.

In Kandy and Columbo, where sidewalks steamed, the relativistic onslaught was unfinished. The electromagnetic pulse alone killed every living thing as far away as Bombay and the Maldives. All of India south of the Godavari River became an instant microwave oven. Nearer the epicenter, Demon Rock glowed with a fierce red heat, then fractured down its center, as if to herald the second coming of the tyrant it memorialized. The air blast followed, surging out of the Indian Ocean -- faster than sound -- flattening whatever still stood. As it slashed north through Jaffna and Madurai, the wave front was met and overpowered by shocks rushing out from strikes in central and southern India.


Its called a relativistic weapon, and if you don't have to worry about sustained power generation or on board propellant, they are actually quite easy to make (the reason we can't make them is because without the two aforementioned requirements, they are in fact nearly impossible to make)
Basically its a mass driver on a LOT of steroids, all you need to do is keep accelerating a chunk of iron long enough, something that a ZPE generator would make fairly easy...

So personally I kinda hope that ZPE generators are a bust, if simply because terrorists sure could have a lot more firepower with one...

(Tl:dr - Friends don't let friends have unlimited power generation and/or reactionless drives)

if you think THAT is scary, you dont want to know what you can do with just materials from Home Depot.
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Justin Andrews

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Re: Perpetual Motion concepts thread
« Reply #41 on: September 28, 2017, 04:54:46 PM »


if you think THAT is scary, you dont want to know what you can do with just materials from Home Depot.

I can probably guess though, I had a fairly *adventurous* time growing up, doing some really stupid high jinks stuff that would be likely considered terror related these days... ;)
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Testpilot1

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Re: Perpetual Motion concepts thread
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2017, 02:26:37 PM »

Its alright, I'm personally having a ball.

The worrying thing about people wanting stuff like ZPE generation is they haven't thought through the consequences of what it means if we do get it, and its open source and easily available.

Usable ZPE generators go hand in hand with concepts such as the EM-Drive which operates on similar principles, and when you couple generators which require no fuel with drives that require no onboard propellent. So let's say that both the ZPE generator and EM-Drive are practical, then, if you are sufficiently evil, then what you get a new class of weapon that makes nuclear bombs look literally like firecrackers.

While I could explain how increadably bad this weapon is.
Please allow scifi author's Charles Pelligrino and George Zebrowski to put it better than I ever could:

Quote
In the forests below, lakes caught the first rays of the rising Sun and threw them back into space. Abandoning the two-dimensional sprawl of twentieth-century cities, Sri Lanka Tower, and others like it, had been erected in the world's rain forests and farmlands, leaving the countryside virtually uninhabited. Even in Africa, where more than a hundred city arcologies had risen, nature was beginning to renew itself. It was a good day to be alive, she told herself, taking in the peace of the garden. Then, looking east, she saw it coming -- at least her eyes began to register it -- but her optic nerves did not last long enough to transmit what the eyes had seen.

It was quite small for what it could do -- small enough to fit into an average-sized living room -- but it was moving at 92 percent of light speed when it touched Earth's atmosphere. A spear point of light appeared, so intense that the air below snapped away from it, creating a low-density tunnel through which the object descended. The walls of the tunnel were a plasma boundary layer, six and a half kilometers wide and more than 160 deep -- the flaming spear that Virginia's eyes began to register -- with every square foot of its surface radiating a trillion watts, and still its destructive potential was but fractionally spent.

Thirty-three kilometers above the Indian Ocean, the point began to encounter too much air. It tunneled down only eight kilometers more, then stalled and detonated, less than two-thousandths of a second after crossing the orbits of Earth's nearest artificial satellites.

Virginia was more than three hundred kilometers away when the light burst toward her. Every nerve ending in her body began to record a strange, prickling sensation -- the sheer pressure of photons trying to push her backward. No shadows were cast anywhere in the tower, so bright was the glare. It pierced walls, ceramic beams, notepads, and people -- four hundred thousand people. The maglev terminal connecting Sri Lanka Tower to London and Sydney, the waste treatment centers that sustained the lakes and farms, all the shops, theaters, and apartments liquefied instantly. The structure began to slip and crash like a giant waterfall, but gravity could not yank it down fast enough. The Tower became vapor before it could fall half a meter. At the vanished city's feet, the trees of the forest were no longer able to cast shadows; they had themselves become long shadows of carbonized dust on the ground.

In Kandy and Columbo, where sidewalks steamed, the relativistic onslaught was unfinished. The electromagnetic pulse alone killed every living thing as far away as Bombay and the Maldives. All of India south of the Godavari River became an instant microwave oven. Nearer the epicenter, Demon Rock glowed with a fierce red heat, then fractured down its center, as if to herald the second coming of the tyrant it memorialized. The air blast followed, surging out of the Indian Ocean -- faster than sound -- flattening whatever still stood. As it slashed north through Jaffna and Madurai, the wave front was met and overpowered by shocks rushing out from strikes in central and southern India.


Its called a relativistic weapon, and if you don't have to worry about sustained power generation or on board propellant, they are actually quite easy to make (the reason we can't make them is because without the two aforementioned requirements, they are in fact nearly impossible to make)
Basically its a mass driver on a LOT of steroids, all you need to do is keep accelerating a chunk of iron long enough, something that a ZPE generator would make fairly easy...

So personally I kinda hope that ZPE generators are a bust, if simply because terrorists sure could have a lot more firepower with one...

(Tl:dr - Friends don't let friends have unlimited power generation and/or reactionless drives)

Interesting to read your ideas Justin, I'm not so desperate to defend my position, we'll see where the technology takes us , and I'm sure that will speak for itself............

I had naturally given the dark side of this technology some thought, being an ex member of the forces, but feel if Zero Point became available we'd have the technology to leave Mother Earth and let them burn in a world that is slowly imploding............

Also, just supposing it was released via a patent, rather than open source, I believe the money your on about from commercialisation would be a drop in the ocean, compared to the petro dollar/ alternative fuel potential.
Any device out there would just get copied,I believe there wouldn't be a monopoly as your suggesting..........

As for more reputable work ...............if you read carefully I quoted Tesla who Bearden believed in, my original post just said Bearden described it best, meaning in layman terms.


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Re: Perpetual Motion concepts thread
« Reply #43 on: October 04, 2017, 04:24:45 AM »

Lots of ................ in these kinds of posts, I notice
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Justin Andrews

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Re: Perpetual Motion concepts thread
« Reply #44 on: October 04, 2017, 03:10:46 PM »

Quote
.if you read carefully I quoted Tesla

Hmm. Tesla was a gifted chap, but lived in a time before we really got to grasp with the details of Quantum dynamics, so his understanding of what ZPE entails was very limited, as such his views on ZPE are of periphery and generally historical interest only. Bear in mind the very early foundational models for ZPE was mostly developed in the 1930's only a few years before Tesla's death, and the most important breakthrough in demonstrating its existence occurred after Tesla's death.

Given the above, Tesla did speculate on the idea of a cosmic force that sounds like the quantum ZPE however Tesla did not know if a ZPE like effect was capable of producing work and he entertained the idea that it was incapable of doing so.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 03:13:24 PM by Justin Andrews »
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