ElectricMotorcycleForum.com

  • November 19, 2017, 10:56:09 AM
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Electric Motorcycle Forum is live!

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 6

Author Topic: DC Charging Options  (Read 2368 times)

togo

  • Motorcycles are for everyday transportation. And fun too.
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 778
    • View Profile
Re: DC Charging Options
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2017, 03:43:55 AM »

Yes I think that's a good explanation of the current situation. With front end signaling decoded it just might work. Thanks, Doug.
Logged
It's like flying, but with more traction.  And none of that Z-axis complexity.

Lost my faith in Zero with my 2011 S, but regained it with my 2014 SR.  Diginow SCv2 changed my SR from a fun ride to primary transport.

2014 Zero SR, accessorized. 2008 Vectrix VX-1 NiMH. 2001 Honda Helix.

Electric Terry

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 663
    • View Profile
Re: DC Charging Options
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2017, 01:47:21 PM »

So direct DC to Zero battery charging won't happen anytime soon, so don't get your hopes up anytime in the near future.  The best charging solution for Zero's right now is to use the powerful AC plugs available to us, and to use multiple plugs when available as this is the standard installation pattern I've been seeing the past 4 years is 4, 8, or 20 stations going in all in a row.

I know there are many people who would like to tour on their Zero, which I just mentioned in the 2018 wish list thread that I thought was odd as most touring riders probably didn't buy a Zero.  Which is even more reason Zero needs to at least have a 2-3 year plan to release a touring bike that is focused on highway riding speeds. 

Right now the best thing going is the Diginow chargers and using Tesla adapters.  As battery sizes go up (perhaps next year?) you could run 5 Diginow superchargers off 1 Tesla plug that is 240v and on 100 amp breaker.  It will run continuous at 80% of that load which is 20,000 watts, and Tesla tells you that you actually receive 16 kW into your battery after charging losses. 

Since 5 Diginows only pull about 16 kW it's well under the max.  Hopefully in the future the 1C charge limit will be raised (all logical thinking would have expected this to happen already) as Farasis cells are 3-4 times more power dense than other EV manufacturers Panasonic 18650's or LG Chem cells, yet those car manufacturers will allow 3-4 C charging for the first 40-50%.  If we could even just get 2C charging, we could tap 2 of these Tesla plugs.  As in many locations there are 4 or more side by side for 64 kW of AC power easy to tap.  And these Tesla destination chargers are going in like wildfire right now.  The number of stations in the US has doubled in the past 3 months from looking at the map, and I'll bet it continues to double again and again many times over the next 2 years in preparation for the flood of model 3's set to hit the road.

Say you're traveling from Lake Tahoe to Los Angeles. (Shadow? lol) You pick a place to charge in Sacramento.  Lets say the Hyatt Hotel to have lunch. 

https://api.plugshare.com/view/location/16987

There are 20 Clipper Creeks that are 40 amp units and will do 8000 watts each - so you could tap 4 of these to get 32,000 watts
But even better there are 6 Tesla destination chargers that are 100 amps and can do 16,000-20,000 watts continuous.  so if you tapped all 6 of these you could charge at 120 kW, which is current Tesla supercharging speed.

We really need Farasis and Zero to agree on a nice tapered charge curve beginning at 4C as long as the batteries are warm and tapering to 1C around 85% and finishing at a CV charge.  The cells are capable of doing it, the Diginow chargers are small powerful and lightweight so it's easy to carry many, and the power is available everywhere and expanding daily. 

So why can't we do this yet?  Not sure, there really isn't a reason.  Hopefully we will be able to soon.  Just need Zero to program a tapered charge rate into the BMS firmware.  But until Zero themselves offers a charge tank that can do say 25 kW (maybe in 3 years with ultra high switching and efficient SiC mosfets or GaAsFets) there really is no reason to rush into allowing over a 1C charge rate.

Lets hope this happens soon.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 01:51:49 PM by Electric Terry »
Logged
100,000+ all electric miles on Zero Motorcycles - 75,000+ on a 2012 Zero S and 35,000+ miles on a 2015 Zero SR
http://www.facebook.com/electricterry
http://instagram.com/electricterry
https://twitter.com/electricterry

Electric Cowboy

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 367
    • View Profile
Re: DC Charging Options
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2017, 03:56:01 AM »

Here is @electricterry charging up Zak Vetter's bike with DC from his mother ship.





Logged

Rugby4life

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 66
    • View Profile
Re: DC Charging Options
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2017, 06:13:25 AM »

I was trying to do more research on the Diginow SC v2 but the company's website seems to be down/gone. I also looked on Hollywood Electrics site and found the data reaper but nothing on the supercharger. Is something happening with them or am I looking in the wrong places?
Logged
"Before attempting to beat the odds, first determine if you can survive the odds beating you."

Electric Cowboy

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 367
    • View Profile
Re: DC Charging Options
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2017, 09:00:28 AM »

Redoing site and backend to tie it all in with invoice and shipping. Shoot me an email with any questions, brandon@diginow.it
Logged

Erasmo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 920
    • View Profile
Re: DC Charging Options
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2017, 06:19:08 PM »

A bit of a shameless plug but I have an experimental ChaDeMo top case for sale if somebody is interested.
Logged

Doctorbass

  • Battery tech
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 907
    • View Profile
    • Endless-sphere.com
Re: DC Charging Options
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2017, 10:05:00 PM »

Terry, dont you think that the reason most  Ev battery are 3-4 time less compact could be due to active cooling system implemented and also structural features to add to the car strengh?

I mean the reason why my Volt 2014  can charge at 4C while regen or 5c while in Mountain mode witch use the onboard 55kw generator to keep  it to 50% SOC is probably due to liquid cooling...

If Zero would allow their Farasis cells to charge at higher C rate and keep battery life reasonable they would need to implement active cooling witch would make these larger and reduce the Wh/L and Wh/kg..

This wold also be opposite to the mentality that zero want to keep witch is "make it simple" ( use air cooling etc..)

Or..  that zero would work  in the next years on a ultra low internal resistance battery and no more need to bother with battery heat.. and then open possibility to 3-4C charging ...

Maybe Luke could inform us on that if and when it happen...

Doc

« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 10:06:39 PM by Doctorbass »
Logged
Zero Drag racing bike: 12.2s 1/4 mile and 7.3s 1/8 mile

T w i t t e r  :     http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon

BrianTRice

  • Unofficial Zero Manual Editor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2327
  • Nerdy Adventurer
    • View Profile
    • Personal site
Re: DC Charging Options
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2017, 01:09:24 AM »

I didn't know there was a titling protocol. Actually, the object of this thread is not as narrow as just SAE Combo charging. I'm hoping to develop an understanding of where we are with DC charging currently and what issues need to be overcome to make it an accessible feature. .... How about a title of "DC Charging Options"? Is changing the title as simple as editing the first post?
Done.

Use "Report post to moderator" link and explain what you would like the thread titles changed to. Each post can have its own different title within the same topic. Moderator can help change all titles within the topic. Thanks for contributing!

Thanks to both! I'll explain that I'm very behind on checking on forum threads and am just asking for assistance with thread titles so I know where to pay attention. Glad all this conversation is happening and easy to work out.
Logged
Zero: 2016 DSR, 2013 DS
Also: 2012 Suzuki DL-650 V-Strom Adv

Justin Andrews

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 988
    • View Profile
Re: DC Charging Options
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2017, 03:17:31 PM »

I think we are *very* rapidly hitting the point where Zero needs to seriously think about their bikes charging strategy.

As Terry has ably demonstrated, its no longer that hard to put together a 35kWh bike. At that point the 1.3kw charger on the bike is almost pointless, heck even on a 20kWh bike the 1.3kw charger is just dead weight as it's never going to charge the bike in a reasonable time frame. At the very bare minimum Zero seriously needs to put at least a 3kW charger on the bikes as standard.

Logged
Zero 2015 SR (+PT);
Yamaha Diversion 900

Doug S

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1110
    • View Profile
Re: DC Charging Options
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2017, 07:52:56 PM »

While I agree with Justin's overall point that Zero needs to re-evaluate their charging strategy, I disagree that the onboard 1.3kW charger is past its prime. Even if we did all have the battery capacity Terry's got, it's still very nice to just plug in to a 115V outlet overnight to top up and be ready to commute again the next day. Just because you have several dozen kWh of capacity doesn't mean you're going to use it all every day.
Logged
There's no better alarm clock than sunlight on asphalt.

Shadow

  • Tip Overs: 10
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 668
  • Zero 2016 DSR ZF13.0
    • View Profile
Re: DC Charging Options
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2017, 09:04:00 PM »

...it's still very nice to just plug in to a 115V outlet overnight to top up...
There's little difference between having L2 charging standard and only L1 charging than the cost, and a slightly more robust (bulky) cable or adapter. For Zero MC one bike one world methodology this could be satisifed with an accessory inlet or adapter. It's currently not just as simple as plugging in since that kettle cord is needed and it's famously prone to melting with frequent use.

The development timeline on Zero MC charging tech does seems to lag far behind what is possible to achieve for a comparable supply cost. Must be a tight budget...
Logged

MrDude_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 929
    • View Profile
Re: DC Charging Options
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2017, 11:31:48 PM »

While I agree with Justin's overall point that Zero needs to re-evaluate their charging strategy, I disagree that the onboard 1.3kW charger is past its prime. Even if we did all have the battery capacity Terry's got, it's still very nice to just plug in to a 115V outlet overnight to top up and be ready to commute again the next day. Just because you have several dozen kWh of capacity doesn't mean you're going to use it all every day.

Ideally, we would have a 3kw or higher charger that would drop to the amp limit of a wall socket when plugged into one.

In an ideal motorcycle, the limitation for charging would be the power available for input. not the charger or the battery.
Logged

BrianTRice

  • Unofficial Zero Manual Editor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2327
  • Nerdy Adventurer
    • View Profile
    • Personal site
Re: DC Charging Options
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2017, 02:23:41 AM »

...it's still very nice to just plug in to a 115V outlet overnight to top up...
There's little difference between having L2 charging standard and only L1 charging than the cost, and a slightly more robust (bulky) cable or adapter. For Zero MC one bike one world methodology this could be satisifed with an accessory inlet or adapter. It's currently not just as simple as plugging in since that kettle cord is needed and it's famously prone to melting with frequent use.

The development timeline on Zero MC charging tech does seems to lag far behind what is possible to achieve for a comparable supply cost. Must be a tight budget...

Since most L2 charging units have smart enough firmware to automatically use half the power in the range of 110V (like the Elcon PFC 2500 and probably the SuperCharger given custom setup), I think the issue is getting a reliable vehicle-rated unit that is lightweight and compatibly-shaped. The Charge Tank for example is very clearly some kind of compromise at the end of what must have been a long and frustrating process. Everything I've overheard indicates that they intended to ship a more powerful product.

I think there was an earlier comment about how the Calex development effort must have cost a significant amount and now it's a sunk cost on an investment that had a higher failure/return rate than desired.

That said, Zero from all accounts has been very risk-averse over the years.

Ideally, we would have a 3kw or higher charger that would drop to the amp limit of a wall socket when plugged into one.

In an ideal motorcycle, the limitation for charging would be the power available for input. not the charger or the battery.

Agreed about scaling down for 110V. It's just that the simplest widely-available signaling for power available is the J1772 signal, so most of these setups really need to hardcode 11-13A for 110V to avoid damaging surprisingly-varying household breakers. (Reminder of how poorly-setup some houses are: at my previous rented house, I had plug fuses and wiring old enough to likely be aluminum at my last house, and had to schedule EV charging around my housemate's electrical usage.)
Logged
Zero: 2016 DSR, 2013 DS
Also: 2012 Suzuki DL-650 V-Strom Adv

Hansi

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 35
    • View Profile
Re: DC Charging Options
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2017, 03:55:20 AM »

How big is Teslas ~16kW charger? I think something like that would be a good option if Zero can't/won't support DC charging. Maybe the older 11kW units would suffice? I think about 1 hour from approximately 0-80% is the maximum amount of time that could be considered usable (semi-)quick charging.

I'm very disappointed in Zero when it comes to charging, basically 0 development in how many years (IMO charge tank can't be considered usable for trips)? IMO quick charging is what's needed for electric transportation to become mainstream (in addition to sufficient range, IMO Zero has fairly sufficient range now, if they offered quick charging).
Logged
Norway
Opel Ampera-e ordered 16.09.16, delivered 08.06.17    Tesla Model 3 reserved 01.04.16
2013 Nissan Leaf Tekna     2011 Mitsubishi i-MiEV

MrDude_1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 929
    • View Profile
Re: DC Charging Options
« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2017, 09:20:06 AM »

How big is Teslas ~16kW charger? I think something like that would be a good option if Zero can't/won't support DC charging. Maybe the older 11kW units would suffice? I think about 1 hour from approximately 0-80% is the maximum amount of time that could be considered usable (semi-)quick charging.

I'm very disappointed in Zero when it comes to charging, basically 0 development in how many years (IMO charge tank can't be considered usable for trips)? IMO quick charging is what's needed for electric transportation to become mainstream (in addition to sufficient range, IMO Zero has fairly sufficient range now, if they offered quick charging).
except the voltage of the tesla is three and a half times too high.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 6