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Author Topic: Which Would You Choose?  (Read 742 times)

Rugby4life

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Which Would You Choose?
« on: July 31, 2017, 02:35:03 AM »

As a way of filling the tank trunk with a performance upgrade there have traditionally been two choices, the power tank to extend range or the charge tank to speed charging. Most of the comments I read lean toward the charge tank. Now with the availability of the Diginow super charger, does that calculation change? Since there is no other way (that I know of) to increase the battery capacity other than the power tank, improved aerodynamics is the other choice to extend range on the highway. So, which would you choose (and why):
1. A power tank + supercharger
2. A charge tank + slippery fairing
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Electric Terry

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Re: Which Would You Choose?
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2017, 07:57:59 AM »

If I was starting from scratch, I would get a 2017 SR with powertank, get 4 diginow superchargers and mount them to the Zero crash bars, and then get a fairing.  There is a rumor that Hollywood Electrics is developing one that should be ready before the end of the year.

So my advice is do all 3!  I did that in 2014 to my 2012 Zero with a powertank (well the 2012 homemade version of it) 24 kW of chargers, and a Vetter fairing.  Good for over 1000 miles in under 24 hours.

http://insideevs.com/iron-butt-terry-rides-electric-motorcycle-1000-miles-24-hours/

If I started with a 2017 SR and did the same thing, it would easily be 1500 miles in 24 hours or 1000 miles in 16 hours.  The easiest thing that wasn't available until this year is the Diginow superchargers.  A 2017 SR with powertank can use 4 of them and charge at 13,200 watts with 2 J plugs.  This alone is absolutely huge!  The best chargers available before that (2010-2016) were twice as big and heavy and 50% less power,  The new superchargers are something every single Zero should have.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 08:07:44 AM by Electric Terry »
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dukecola

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Re: Which Would You Choose?
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2017, 08:10:37 AM »

Power tank and diginow for sure. 25% extra range beats having to stop and charge, every time. Some of my trips I have enough range for a round trip with out any charging. Without PT, a charging stop would be needed.
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Rugby4life

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Re: Which Would You Choose?
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2017, 09:04:53 AM »

Terry, maybe I should have specified that this is for a daily driver. Exactly how much would 4 superchargers cost? I will be on the look out for the possible fairing from Hollywood Electrics.
BTW, is it possible to replace the stock charger with a 3.3 SC (space wise)?
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MrDude_1

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Re: Which Would You Choose?
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2017, 01:15:06 AM »

Terry, maybe I should have specified that this is for a daily driver. Exactly how much would 4 superchargers cost? I will be on the look out for the possible fairing from Hollywood Electrics.
BTW, is it possible to replace the stock charger with a 3.3 SC (space wise)?

Thats kind of what I would do.
If money was no object, I would get a new '17 SR with the hard tank for storage... then remove the stock charger and place 4 superchargers there.
1 J-plug on the bottom and 1 tesla on the top

Have them setup so that if the top charger is high output (tesla) a relay connected all 4.
If power is in the J port on the side, then 2 superchargers run off that, and the Tesla port can take a Tesla to J-plug adapter. (that I can keep in the trunk)
If its only wall 110v power through the stock port, it just runs 1 supercharger (or 2 however it works now for them)


This means its nice and clean, you just plug in the tesla plug at home and when you're out.. unless its a J station, then plug that in the side.. unless you're in a hurry, then plug in 2 j stations.
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togo

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Re: Which Would You Choose?
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2017, 04:06:29 AM »

Terry, maybe I should have specified that this is for a daily driver. Exactly how much would 4 superchargers cost? I will be on the look out for the possible fairing from Hollywood Electrics.
BTW, is it possible to replace the stock charger with a 3.3 SC (space wise)?

What range do you need?  Rapid charging is necessary for some (road trip) but not for other (long stops, like at home and at work, you can charge on the onboard).

Terry and Luke have mounted at the bottom, where the stock charger is, but it required some fab and they lost some clearance.  Terry, post some photos?

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It's like flying, but with more traction.  And none of that Z-axis complexity.

Lost my faith in Zero with my 2011 S, but regained it with my 2014 SR.  Diginow SCv2 changed my SR from a fun ride to primary transport.

2014 Zero SR, accessorized. 2008 Vectrix VX-1 NiMH. 2001 Honda Helix.

Rugby4life

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Re: Which Would You Choose?
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2017, 04:43:49 AM »

Togo,
I have ridden a motorcycle as my daily transportation since 1989. I have 400k miles just on the 10 BMWs I've owned (31 bikes overall). Before my kids were born, I would do at least 1 1000 mile day per month. I still do long day rides such as 500 miles for a burger, 1100 miles for ribs in Memphis, 650 to New Orleans for a long weekend, 750 to Chicago for a Cubs series.
As you can see, I tend to like long rides so figuring out how to fit an electric bike into that addictive habit is what has me stumped. I test rode an FXS with the thought of using it for daily commuting and keeping a gas bike for long runs. Based on my range test, it just doesn't have the minimum range I need to justify the price.
So now I'm researching the S/DS models. If I'm going to step up to the higher price range, I'm going to have to figure out how to expand its operating envelope to justify the cost. I recognize that I'm not the target customer demographic for Zero but ever since I first demo rode one in 2012, I've wanted to find a way to work one into my lifestyle.
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togo

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Re: Which Would You Choose?
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2017, 05:17:00 AM »

Yep, you're on the right track.

From my personal experience, the actual range of my motorcycle started to matter a lot less, when I started charging at 6-10 kw.

Plugging in and unplugging is fast, and charging is fastest in the 30-90% charge range, so I stop and get coffee, stop and get a sandwich, stop and take a walk, and it's only an issue on the legs where there aren't many chargers.

You do have to do a lot more planning when you go long distances on an electric motorcycle, you need to know what range you get, and what speed to go to get that range, and it's still kind of complicated.  Plugshare and chargepoint are my most used apps- Plugshare to see what stations are around, it's the most complete, and it has real people leaving real reviews. and Chargepoint because most of the good stations in my area are Chargepoint, and it offers the extra value of letting you know if a station is available or in use.

And for rapid charging, the Diginow works well for me, less well for some others, and there's no real Zero solution for real rapid charging.  At this point, you're a bit of a beta tester unless you have a good dealer standing behind the install (Hollywood Electrics).

Sounds like for your long trips, you might want to keep a gas bike, but for the areas where it works for you, you will find the smoothness and low cost of electric to be unparalleled.  It's well worth it.

(Don't buy a pre-2013 one used, though.  My own personal experience.)

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It's like flying, but with more traction.  And none of that Z-axis complexity.

Lost my faith in Zero with my 2011 S, but regained it with my 2014 SR.  Diginow SCv2 changed my SR from a fun ride to primary transport.

2014 Zero SR, accessorized. 2008 Vectrix VX-1 NiMH. 2001 Honda Helix.

Rugby4life

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Re: Which Would You Choose?
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2017, 06:26:16 AM »

So if recharging is quickest in the 30-90% range it would make sense to have the largest battery capacity possible (power tank) and use super chargers. BTW I enjoy doing the things that make people's eyes go glassy when they hear the stories. Doing a 3 day fly and ride cross country (2500 miles) after accidentally buying a bike on EBay, 1k days on a BMW C650GT scooter, riding an R75/5 from SC to Minneapolis in January for a poker run. Yep, I'm on the outer edge of the bell curve for motorcycle usage.

Does anyone have a counter argument for choosing the charge tank instead of the power tank (given my position on the bell curve)?
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Lenny

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Re: Which Would You Choose?
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2017, 05:10:09 PM »

The most important thing for long rides is the charging speed. The capacity of the additional PowerTank can be used once a day, while recharging lets you use the same capacity multiple times a day. Of course a combination of both is even better, because the possible charging speed depends on the battery capacity. Although the cost is getting really high then, especially the PowerTank is really expensive given its capacity.

To give another example: Tesla's are capable of road trips not because of their huge battery capacity, but because the Supercharger network allows to fill them up really quick and very reliable.
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MrDude_1

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Re: Which Would You Choose?
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2017, 07:31:42 PM »

Tesla's are capable of road trips not because of their huge battery capacity, but because the Supercharger network allows to fill them up really quick and very reliable.

** provided the battery capacity is enough to get them to the next charging station.
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Richard230

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Re: Which Would You Choose?
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2017, 08:39:32 PM »

Tesla's are capable of road trips not because of their huge battery capacity, but because the Supercharger network allows to fill them up really quick and very reliable.

** provided the battery capacity is enough to get them to the next charging station.

And provided that there is not a long line of Teslas waiting to use the Superchargers.  :o Two nights ago on the local TV news, when they were showing the new Model 3 introduction, the reporter was at a Supercharger station, with about 8 Superchargers in a row and a line of Tesla Model S cars behind each charging station waiting for their turn at the free juice.  When a few hundred thousand Model 3 Teslas hit the road in California those charging stations are really going to get busy.  While they wait in line, I'll be asleep in my bed as my Zero slowly recharges in my garage for a dollar or two of electric power.   :)
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Richard's motorcycle collection:  2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

Rugby4life

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Re: Which Would You Choose?
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2017, 09:03:52 PM »

The most important thing for long rides is the charging speed. The capacity of the additional PowerTank can be used once a day, while recharging lets you use the same capacity multiple times a day.

Lenny, the power tank is good only once a day??? Explain how that works. If you charge up a 13kw battery you go X number of miles, if you charge up a 16.3kw battery you go Y number of miles. Every time you recharge you can either go X or Y miles. Why would you choose X because Y "can only be used once a day"?
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Justin Andrews

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Re: Which Would You Choose?
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2017, 09:17:45 PM »

The most important thing for long rides is the charging speed. The capacity of the additional PowerTank can be used once a day, while recharging lets you use the same capacity multiple times a day.

Lenny, the power tank is good only once a day??? Explain how that works. If you charge up a 13kw battery you go X number of miles, if you charge up a 16.3kw battery you go Y number of miles. Every time you recharge you can either go X or Y miles. Why would you choose X because Y "can only be used once a day"?

I think he was exaggerating slightly. If you have fast charging in the option space, then that is more useful on a very long journey than a power tank, as it takes an awful long time to charge the monolith + power tank from the 1.3kW onboard charger.
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Lenny

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Re: Which Would You Choose?
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2017, 10:47:45 PM »

I think he was exaggerating slightly. If you have fast charging in the option space, then that is more useful on a very long journey than a power tank, as it takes an awful long time to charge the monolith + power tank from the 1.3kW onboard charger.

That is exactly what I meant, thanks for clarifying. I'm not a native english speaker, so sometimes it's harder for me to express myself. If you just have money for one of the two, the faster charging will bring you further than the extra battery. And with the onboard charger you will effectively only be able to charge up once a day.

Regarding the other comments: I get your points and you are right, but the key point was that for road tripping fast charging is way more important than absolute battery capacity once a certain basic level of capacity is reached.
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Zero FXS 6.5 MY16
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