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Author Topic: How to stop charging below 100%  (Read 5504 times)

togo

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Re: How to stop charging below 100%
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2017, 09:46:09 PM »

I believe sometime in the next year, perhaps much sooner (just don't want to rush those working on the project) that the Diginow will have target voltage to be controlled and settable by the phone app.  You just punch in 110 volts and it charges to 80%.  Also if you are on a weak or shared outlet (garage door or fridge) you can set the amperage to charge at less than 1600 watts like 1200 watts, 800 watts or even 100 watts if you like or anything in between.

I don't believe the existing diginow SCv2 controllers currently being supplied have the hardware to support wireless phone connections.  But I imagine the controller module could be swapped out.
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grmarks

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Re: How to stop charging below 100%
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2017, 04:22:16 AM »

Cell balancing happens all the time.
There is definately some balancing done at the end. You have cell balancing in each module and then balancing between modules. From my experience with BMS's I would guess the modules are balanced all the time and the cells within modules are balanced at the end. Lithium batteries have a very flat voltage curve except at the bottom and top of charge.  So BMS's use the top balance method as it is easier and happens every charge (unless you stop at 80%).  The only bottom balancing I have heard of is done manually.

The voltage of a lithium cell at 50% soc and 70% is almost identical and given difference between cells you could have 2 cells at the same voltage but one is 50% soc and the other 70%. If your cell voltage is normally around 3.2V, at  say, 3.7 volts you know the cell is almost full because the voltage only rises like this when the cell is almost full. If every cell is 3.7 V then you know every cell is almost 100%.   

But with monitoring the pack voltage it will be far less accurate, but if every cell goes up by 0.01 V then across, say, 30 cells, then thats a rise of  .3 volts that you could measure. These are just random figures to explain the idea.

I have only done one conversion of a bike to electric, but when looking at BMS systems, this is the way they all seemed to work and the explanation given. I don't see how you can cell balance at every step of charging. I am no expert but if someone wants to dispute this then please do (with the evidence and explanation to prove your case). 

So if you charge to only 80% then every few charges you would want to charge to 100%, but that could be programmed into the Arduino program. How do you tell if you are at 80%? It is usually done by an algorithm that measures the amount of power you use ( it knows the total power of the pack) and calculates a % SOC. The reverse is done when charging, e.g. if you have a 10 Kw/h pack and you monitor 5kw/h going out then you are at 50% SOC. If you monitor 3 kw/h going in, you are back up at 80%. The algorithm also takes into account pack age, number of time charged, to what depth of discharge etc, etc.

This is why 2014 bikes would say you had 10% SOC and then cut out 1% later with on charge left -  the calac was out of whack with reality. By making the algorithm smarter the accuracy increases.

So if you measure the pack voltage and lets say each cell rises by 0.01 V then if you have, say, 30 cells thats .3 V that you can measure and have the charger disconnect.
These figures are just random numbers to explain the idea. It is certainly doable.     

« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 04:43:18 AM by grmarks »
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Keith

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Re: How to stop charging below 100%
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2017, 05:51:58 PM »

Here's my arduino based design to stop charging at a settable voltage, parts are on the way. I think this is the simplest way to charge externally to less than 100% without any inconvenience. The design is minimal, self powered, and can be incorporated into the existing Y cable so no connectors are added. Or it could be built with its own connectors. It is used inline with the bike external charge connector or the battery pack adapter.

Writing the code and debugging remains to be done before this approach is proven but I'm confident it will work. The processor will need to measure the set point input and compare to the measured pack voltage. When the scaled voltage is above the set point, the enable line is turned off and charging stops. No time calculation is needed, no relays or AC switching, simple. And it's easily bypassed if it fails or if 100% charging is desired. About $50 parts cost without connectors.

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ESokoloff

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Re: How to stop charging below 100%
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2017, 08:25:52 AM »

I believe sometime in the next year, perhaps much sooner (just don't want to rush those working on the project) ...............

Also if you are on a weak or shared outlet (garage door or fridge) you can set the amperage to charge at less than 1600 watts like 1200 watts, 800 watts or even 100 watts if you like or anything in between.

Very cool :)

I've shared my EV expereance on a ICE motorcycle forum board and someone responded that having only an outlet on 10 amp circuit at his apartment would prevent him from owning a zero unless there was a workaround. 

Sounds like this feature will allow more individuals to get into the EV game.   
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Eric
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ESokoloff

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Re: How to stop charging below 100%
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2017, 08:31:38 AM »

Hi Keith, I think there is only one reason to stop charging below 100% and that's before storing the bike for a long time.  ............

.........

I'm more interested in why you think it's  worth the bother to find a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. I don't want that to sound facetious, I just feel that people spend far too much time worrying about charging when they don't need to.

I for one I'm looking for a way to AUTOMATICLY limit charge level.
My employer provides EV power for electric vehicals so as long as I keep the battery level above 60-65% I wait until I'm at work to fully charge. 
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Eric
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remmie

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Re: How to stop charging below 100%
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2017, 12:06:55 PM »

On my 2014 SR (and I assume all Zero's with the Calex 1200 W onboard charger) the powerdraw rises from around 1200 Watts at 10% SOC to almost 1400 Watts at 98% SOC. So from the powerdraw of the charger you can guestimate the SOC of the Zero. It may not be very exact but it could offer a good way to switch off the power to the onboard charger at a desired level.

Maybe a smart power meter (Wemo switch / elgato eve energy / similar) could cut the power to the charger when it draws more than 1350 Watts. This would stop the charge at around 80% SOC. I know that with homekit (apple) and other home automation programs you can use the value of a sensor (in this case the energy meter to where the Zero is connected) to switch appliances (in this case the same energy meter with switch switch) or lights.

Haha would be cool. When the zero is charged to the desired level, cut the power to the charger and switch on (or off or flash :) ) your home lights.

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Current : Red Premium Zero SR/F (ordered May 25, delivered August 23 2019) with Rapid charger for 12kW charging
Former : White Zero SR 2018 ZF14.4 kWh (17.500 km)
Former : Black Zero SR 2014 ZF11.4 kWh (25.000 km)
SR's outfitted with Homemade "Supercharger" 6x eltek Flatpack S (12 kW)

Scope

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Re: How to stop charging below 100%
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2017, 10:48:22 PM »

I use a WeMo Insight switch with an IFFF rule to shut off power once consumption drops below threshold.


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togo

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Why (and how to) stop charging below 100%
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2017, 12:26:45 AM »

Hi Keith, I think there is only one reason to stop charging below 100% and that's before storing the bike for a long time.  ...

Well, the second reason is battery life, which, yes, is not much of a reason for the general public, more of a reason for electronics tinkerers and the truly frugal.  It'll probably make about 1-5% difference in the life of the battery

But I actually have a third reason.

I live at the top of a hill.

I'd like my "normal" charge level to be one that doesn't disable regenerative braking. (Is that 98% on the latest firmware?)

Well, again, a reason for the tinkerer.  It's technical.  And for the frugal.  Cuz... brake pad wear.


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remmie

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Re: How to stop charging below 100%
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2017, 12:33:59 AM »

Here's some data on a charge from 26% to 100%
I've combined data from the log of the powerdraw from my home automation system and the corresponding MBB log.

Time is in minutes from the start of charging.

In the data you can see that the power starts out at 1212 Watts at 26% and tops out at 1380 Watt at 93%. After that the power tapers off as the max voltage is reached and the current tapers down.
Another weird thing is the jump from 71% to 81% within 10 minutes. But hey, it a 2014 so SOC is unpredictable (have to get the new firmware update soon).
So if you would want to charge to 85% you would set the cutoff point at 1340 Watts

Time   SOC   Packtemp   Amb temp   Power
0   26%   38.0   21.0   1212
10   28%   37.0   22.0   1218
20   29%   37.0   23.0   1221
30   31%   36.0   24.0   1225
40   33%   36.0   24.0   1227
50   35%   35.0   24.0   1229
60   36%   35.0   25.0   1232
70   38%   35.0   25.0   1235
80   40%   34.0   25.0   1237
90   41%   34.0   25.0   1240
100   43%   34.0   25.0   1242
110   45%   34.0   25.0   1244
120   47%   34.0   25.0   1247
130   48%   34.0   25.0   1249
140   50%   34.0   25.0   1252
150   52%   35.0   25.0   1255
160   53%   35.0   25.0   1259
170   55%   35.0   25.0   1262
180   57%   35.0   25.0   1267
190   59%   35.0   25.0   1272
200   60%   35.0   25.0   1277
210   62%   36.0   25.0   1282
220   64%   36.0   25.0   1288
230   65%   36.0   25.0   1294
240   67%   36.0   25.0   1300
250   69%   36.0   25.0   1306
260   71%   36.0   25.0   1314
270   81%   37.0   25.0   1321
280   82%   37.0   25.0   1330
290   84%   37.0   25.0   1338
300   86%   37.0   25.0   1346
310   88%   37.0   25.0   1354
320   89%   37.0   25.0   1363
330   91%   37.0   25.0   1370
340   93%   37.0   25.0   1379
350   94%   37.0   25.0   1176
360   96%   37.0   25.0   539
370   96%   37.0   25.0   455
380   97%   37.0   25.0   383
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Current : Red Premium Zero SR/F (ordered May 25, delivered August 23 2019) with Rapid charger for 12kW charging
Former : White Zero SR 2018 ZF14.4 kWh (17.500 km)
Former : Black Zero SR 2014 ZF11.4 kWh (25.000 km)
SR's outfitted with Homemade "Supercharger" 6x eltek Flatpack S (12 kW)

togo

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Re: How to stop charging below 100%
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2017, 01:10:21 AM »

Awesome table, thanks!

So it looks like a microcontroller measuring current with a relay could do an approximate job of it in a little self-contained box.

For onboard Calex, connectors could be C14 in, C13 out.

For SCv2, connectors would be anderson SBS50 brown (everybody have the same ones?).

"Normal mode" charging, you use the box, "range mode" you omit it.  Way cool, way KISS.  LEDs or a display if you want to verify mode, but the Zero app or the Diginow Dongle can be used to verify voltage and current from the Zero's point of view.

So, any open source current-measurement arduino code out there?  I see there's a shield; that seems overkill.


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Keith

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Re: How to stop charging below 100%
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2017, 01:19:01 AM »

That approach does look promising for on board charger control. I'm soldering wires to my arduino enable controller for external chargers right now, may have results today. A little box in series with the Y cable enable will do it. Sensing pack voltage directly and switching a logic line is simpler than AC power circuitry but requires an external charger. Measuring the power draw of the charger is equivalent to measuring pack voltage because the charger is constant current. Since W=E*I the watts increase directly with voltage.
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remmie

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Re: How to stop charging below 100%
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2017, 01:52:18 AM »

I think this project (not mine  8) ) should give you some ideas

https://openhomeautomation.net/arduino-wifi-switch/
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Current : Red Premium Zero SR/F (ordered May 25, delivered August 23 2019) with Rapid charger for 12kW charging
Former : White Zero SR 2018 ZF14.4 kWh (17.500 km)
Former : Black Zero SR 2014 ZF11.4 kWh (25.000 km)
SR's outfitted with Homemade "Supercharger" 6x eltek Flatpack S (12 kW)

Keith

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Re: How to stop charging below 100%
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2017, 04:10:38 AM »

I have a prototype of the arduino charge control idea assembled and I'm in the early testing phase. I've learned that the enable line from the DeltaQ is not just a simple logic line, it has at least a couple of modes rather than just on/off. So I'll need to regroup a little and figure out how to handle that properly. It appears that some voltage on the enable line signals the charger that the bike is nearly charged so it turns on the 80% charge indicator and reduces current (I think or maybe it goes into CV?). So this is not quite as simple as I thought, more testing needed.
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togo

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Re: How to stop charging below 100%
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2017, 11:40:13 AM »

I think this project (not mine  8) ) should give you some ideas

https://openhomeautomation.net/arduino-wifi-switch/

That is awesome. It measures current, and it switches 10A. 117vac people will want more, but that's probably just a part swap. It has all the hardware we want and wifi comm on top of that. Awesome.
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Keith

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Re: How to stop charging below 100%
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2017, 09:04:40 AM »

Success! I have short charged under arduino control with good results.  8) I have some more work to do, need to handle two chargers with separate enables, put it in an enclosure, and publish the design and code, open source of course. I had a few setbacks along the way. I solved the enable line handling issue I mentioned previously by changing to an open collector style connection where the enable line is unaltered except when the desired voltage is reached and the processor pulls it to V-.

The other problem was more difficult. I really wanted it to be self powered and that almost worked. A simple zener diode and resistor from the pack voltage will power the board, but not without some trouble. Because power is lost when the charging stops, the processor can no longer control the enable signal. On the bike, that causes the dash charging light to flicker red after charging stops. That's probably OK, but it shouldn't do that. The same thing happens if you connect and power an external charger before turning the key on. Worse than that is what happens when charging packs off the bike. When charging stops, the contactor opens but the charger keeps the enable line active. So the contactor closes again, opens again, etc. Again, probably OK but annoying and would wear out the contactor. So I tried many circuit and software ideas to fix it but none of them worked in all cases.  :(

The simple answer is to just power the arduino with a usb charger. That works perfectly, but it is one more thing to connect and I really wanted to avoid that. Anyway, it works flawlessly now, charging stops predictably, the QuiQ turns off current, shows green for charge complete and then flashes red as it does when disconnected. All good. Both bike and pack are now happy with the charge termination method. I'll post more details when I wrap this project up.

By the way, this device can be built for around $20 using the arduino mini and existing connectors, pretty sweet. I'm sure it can be adapted to control an AC contactor for on board charging control too. But I'm not inclined to mess with wifi, I like simplicity. I do have a few ideas for other features though. For example, it would be nice to have a delayed charging start to give the packs and air temperature time to cool down first.
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