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Author Topic: SLOW charging vs FAST charging and battery life  (Read 6458 times)

Doctorbass

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SLOW charging vs FAST charging and battery life
« on: July 04, 2017, 08:18:55 PM »

I want to debate about a good question regarding fast and slow charging our battery.

Let see this question regardless the big advantage of short charge time  and getting our bike ready to ride quicker.

The common idea is that slow charging is better than fast charging in term of cell life span.

Each  battery have an internal resistance witch produce heat depending on the current that flow thru it.
Slow charging produce less heat because the current is lower and fast charging produce more heat.

However fast charging last less time than slow charging. This leave two interesting questions here:
It is the total heat that the cell get that affect cell life or is it the peak temperature and the duration of it?

The second question is new to most of you and  it have been addressed by Jeff Dahn from the Dalhousie University of Halifax witch is an awesome battery specialist that improved the TESLA battery and also contributed to many battery improvement like GM for the Volt and the BOLT. https://www.dal.ca/news/2017/02/07/supercharged-success--battery-researcher-jeff-dahn-wins-herzberg.html
In one of his presentation he explained that fast charging might in some conditions be BETTER than slow charging to preserve battery life! What he explained is that it is more the fact that the battery is in charging process that affect cell life more than the heat. So putting a battery in charging state  is reducing the cell life and in certain circumstance even fast charging ( 1C+)  is better because it spend less time in the charging process… and that it less affect the battery life than the high charge rate itself!!

Jeff made a 1h video presentation on youtube that is VERY interesting.

One of his very interesting seminar :


And another about the NMC cells`he made:






Doc
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 08:27:24 PM by Doctorbass »
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Keith

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Re: SLOW charging vs FAST charging and battery life
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2017, 06:13:13 AM »

VERY interesting. I have nine different charging options with my FX, modular packs and two DeltaQ chargers. If fast charging is really best for the Zero packs, I should use my Y adapter to combine two chargers into one pack at a time. I've never done that. In fact the slowest option, the on bike charger into two packs at a time is most convenient so it is the usual method. I do use the external chargers in many situations, but one charger for each pack is again most convenient. So is it worth the trouble to handle the packs separately, connect two chargers that will need a 20 or 25 amp circuit, and charge as quickly as possible? In rough numbers I think my charging options are:

1.  0.1C   two packs  on bike
2.  0.14C two packs  one external (possible? custom Y cable)
3.  0.2C   one pack   on bike
4.  0.24C two packs  on bike plus one external
5.  0.28C one pack   one external
6.  0.28C two packs  two external (20 amp circuit)
7.  0.38C two packs  on bike plus two external (25 amp circuit)
8.  0.55C one pack   two external Y (20 amp circuit)
9.  0.75C one pack   on bike plus two external Y (25 amp circuit)   

That is a big increase in rate using the Y adapter with one pack but it won't work on a 15 amp circuit. Even 20 amps isn't enough for the maximum rate as I found out one day charging with option 7.


 

« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 06:17:22 AM by Keith »
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JaimeC

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Re: SLOW charging vs FAST charging and battery life
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2017, 09:43:51 AM »

I don't know much about lithium batteries... most of my experience with rechargeables are with NiCads when I used to race electric model cars.  We'd fast charge between heats on race day,  but the days before the race we'd slow charge all of our battery packs to make sure all of the cells were balanced.  I just ASSUME (and we all know what happens when we "assume") that the same holds true for LiON batteries... an occasional slow charge to make sure all the cells are in balance.
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hubert

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Re: SLOW charging vs FAST charging and battery life
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2017, 03:47:42 PM »

The slow charge for balancing is an occasional must. However, this says nothing about the rate of wear as a function of the charging C-rate.
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Electric Terry

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Re: SLOW charging vs FAST charging and battery life
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2017, 06:14:59 PM »

Short answer: Charging fast doesn't hurt batteries


Very long answer: read if you want to really understand, otherwise just charge fast and be happy  ;)

Charging rates have little to do with cell life.  High duration of time spent at high states of charge and high temperature are 99% more damaging to a cell than fast charging most Lithium at 1C, especially Zero batteries because of their very low internal resistance and high power density compared to other electric vehicles.  Yet most other electric vehicles can do 80% charge in 20 minutes.  The last 20% can take 40 minutes.  So when travelling you unplug at 80% and go!

The Zero batteries would probably even better in cycle tests of 80% in 20 minutes than car batteries do with a tapered curve that is about 3C charging to 30% as long as temperature of the cells is 100-105F.  The problem with the Zero cells is repeated cycles and heat retention.  If you ride highway speeds you will heat the battery, and if you charge fast you heat the battery.  So eventually your battery will be sitting at 120F with no way to cool down.  Heat is molecular vibration.  And the cells can be damaged from this repeated vibration sitting at temperatures above 50C/120F if it happens often.

Best to ride down to only 20% and fast charge only to 80% if you will be travelling and going to perform many charge/discharge cycles in the same day.  The battery will heat quicker discharging fast under 20% and it will also heat quicker charging over 80%.  It will also heat using just the onboard charger, so use an accessory charger like the Diginow or something with cooling fins and a fan, but that is sealed to moisture and potted.

If you are concerned about fast charging and cell life, unplug your bike at 80% each night first as sitting at 100% is about 20 times worse than fast charging.

In a recent Farasis cell test the 2C charging test for 1000 cycles actually showed better capacity than the same cells performing the 1C charging.  Not by much but it was better.  Main reason is the 2C test completed quicker and the more important factor to charging was simple time duration and calendar life. 

Point is go ahead and use the bike the way you want.  Charge up to the 1C limit.  If you want to extend your battery life don't even bother charging at night.  Carry a fast charger and just charge quickly when you need to.

I had 78,000 miles on my 2012 Zero and never once charged at home overnight.  I lived in an off the grid house and had to charge when the sun was on my solar panels.  So I just charged from the 300 ChargePoint stations in Orlando.

When I moved to California, I never once charged overnight either.  I couldn't.  I had no more delta Q's on the bike only Elcon chargers that went straight into the controller and the bike had to be on to charge.  I wouldn't want to leave the bike on overnight in my carport, so I just didn't charge at night.  Although I never needed to because I had 4 J1772 plugs on my bike to charge extremely fast when ever I needed.

With a full drain, and full charge test using 5 significant figures from chargepoint after 75,000 miles I had lost less than 1% of my total capacity.  A week after running that test I rode 300 miles at 70 mph from Scotts Valley to northern California.

http://insideevs.com/electric-terry-hershner-rides-300-miles-on-zero-motorcycle-on-one-charge/

My batteries were as strong as they were new after 78,000 miles of only fast charging.  Think about that...

But my bike sat overnight and when I wasn't using it at what ever I arrived home with.  Probably 30-50% SOC is where it sat most of the time when I wasn't using it.

Now no one needs to worry about unplugging your bike at night.  But don't worry about fast charging either then.  Just use your bike so it makes you happy.  The best way to get the most mileage out of your battery, ride it a lot and fast charge it and ride it more!  That bike will have the potential to have many more lifetime miles on it than the one that doesn't fast charge. Make sense?

I'm hoping Brandon will have an app for the new Diginow superchargers soon so you can set voltage on the app to be like 110 volts and so you can plug in at night and the bike will automatically stop charging at 80% so you don't have to think about it.   You can plug back in the morning if you want to top off to 100%, or just don't worry about it if you have a supercharger.  You can always fill up fast if you need to.

The only negative thing for batteries in regards to fast charging is low temperature.  Always ride your bike first and heat the batteries to at least 70F/20C if you are going to fast charge.  Batteries don't even like the onboard charger when just above freezing.  So if you live in a cold climate, you can store your bike in the cold in the winter when you aren't riding it, that's fine an actually better for the batteries to be stored in the cold for long term storage, but if you ride it each day, keep it in a heated garage or in the kitchen or living room overnight in winter if you will be using the fast chargers the next day.

Also it's best not to fast charge to 100% SOC.  I'm guilty and did it many times in the 78,000 miles so it didn't do anything drastic, but you are probably better off charging really fast to 80%, then unplugging and just stopping a little sooner between charging stations. 

One day algorithms on the supercharger will have all this programmed into it to maximize battery life and you can make adjustments from an app.  I know there is work being done on that now from a few developers on the Diginow supercharger messenger boards
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 06:59:44 PM by Electric Terry »
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hubert

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Re: SLOW charging vs FAST charging and battery life
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2017, 07:18:25 PM »

Quote
keep it in a heated garage or in the kitchen or living room overnight

And if you really love your bike, you can even take it with you in the bedroom....   ;D
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Keith

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Re: SLOW charging vs FAST charging and battery life
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2017, 07:44:12 PM »

Long answers are good, they give me ideas. The tradeoffs from a user point of view between convenience and what's best for battery life are many, especially with several charging choices as I have listed above. Stopping below 100% off bike is especially difficult with my external chargers because I have no SOC readout. The delta q's are programmable, but I don't know how to create and use a Zero compatible program that would stop before full charge. A hardware solution would use a relay on the ac source to disconnect at an adjustable battery voltage threshold; feasible but expensive. Knowing the time it would take from any starting SOC to reach a desired SOC could be used for a simpler timer solution including manual. I suppose I could do several runs and create a table using log file data. Or I could just ride and be happy, good advice.

But with a little extra work I could possibly extend the battery life significantly. Setting up my two externals to charge one pack at a time at a high rate on the bike would not be difficult but I'd have to remember to switch the packs to get both charged. But 5-7 times the rate is not a small difference, maybe it's worth the trouble, who knows. Back to the 100% SOC matter, it is of course convenient to just plug it in and forget it, knowing that a full charge is waiting whenever you decide to ride next. But if I did stop at 80%, two externals would get it to 100% pretty fast while I put on my gear and looked at a map. Again, possibly making the batteries last longer for a slight loss of convenience. My options are further complicated by my use of four packs, two in the bike and two waiting for the next round. I recently looked at my BMS logs and found that one pack has about half the number of cycles as the other three, by random chance. I sometimes ride with one pack and don't pay any attention when I swap them. Maybe I should. And maybe I should use one pair less than the other. Decisions, decisions. Ride and be Happy!  ;D

One other idea/question while I'm at it. My option 2 requires a custom Y adaptor and I am not sure it will even work. But when I am in a cheap West Virginia motel with low batteries in the room, I don't have a 20 amp circuit to charge two packs at once. Well, maybe I can choose to unplug the room air conditioner if I'm desperate. Or I can charge one pack at a time on a 15 amp (probably) outlet, wake up in the middle of the night, see green LED, switch the connections to another pack and go back to sleep, not a great option but I've done it. Again, a custom delta-q program to charge at a lower current would be nice but just connecting two packs to one charger would let me get more sleep. Will this work? This is like charging two packs on the bike, right? Just parallel the packs and have jumpers to close the contactors, or is there more to it? Is there some communication between delta-q and two packs that would be upset by doing this?
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Skidz

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Re: SLOW charging vs FAST charging and battery life
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2017, 08:16:29 PM »

I agree with what Terry says in his (long, but informational ;)) post. I'm used to using LiPo's in somewhat more experimental times, and we considered everything below 1C charging as slow charging. But the chargers we used also had temperature sensors, making sure to charge the cells as fast as their internal resistance allowed. Staying around 30C was crucial for battery life...
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Doug S

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Re: SLOW charging vs FAST charging and battery life
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2017, 09:13:37 PM »

A lot of our communal battery "knowledge" includes many things that are just plain obsolete these days...battery technology has moved through several generations in most of our lifetimes. Remember Ni-cad batteries? You'd have to drain them fairly completely once in a while or they'd acquire a "memory", which would prevent them from discharging all the way. But you didn't want to do it too often or whiskers would form between the anode and the cathode, killing the battery (I used to love trying to bring them back to life with high-voltage electroshock therapy -- sometimes it worked!). I still frequently run into people that advocate an occasional deep discharge of a cell phone's battery because that was once a good thing to do to batteries.

The upshot is that battery technology has come a long, long ways. Over the course of years talking with battery manufacturers, I've been told that even modern Ni-cads don't have the "memory" problem, and in fact most of them never did -- it was just the earlier, cheaper cells that needed the occasional deep discharge. But it's also my belief that Li-ion has never had that problem, nor does it have many operational considerations at all. The only REAL concern with a good Li-ion battery is the temperature, plain and simple. Maximum charge and discharge rates are intended to keep the battery temperature within allowable limits, even the end-stage constant-voltage portion of the charging algorithm.

I was reading recently that Tesla, who has far more in-field data than anybody with high-capacity Li-ion batteries, has data that shows a slight INCREASE in cell lifetime among users that frequently fast-charge. I don't know if that "slight increase" is statistically significant, and I don't know how it relates to the cells our bikes use, but at the very least it's a positive indication that fast-charging isn't harmful under all circumstances, and could even be evidence that it's beneficial.
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Keith

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Re: SLOW charging vs FAST charging and battery life
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2017, 08:11:12 PM »

I've added an off bike charging section to the wiki to list the various options. This section is in Advanced Modifications but should probably be linked elsewhere in the wiki since most connections can be done with standard Zero accessories. http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Advanced_Modifications#Charging_Off_Bike

I plan to add drawings for the power pack module adaptor and custom Y cable for charging two packs with one external charger which will be advanced modifications. I have also added a Y cable wiring pictorial based on the official cable.
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NEW2elec

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Re: SLOW charging vs FAST charging and battery life
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2017, 08:31:35 PM »

Quote:
I was reading recently that Tesla, who has far more in-field data than anybody with high-capacity Li-ion batteries, has data that shows a slight INCREASE in cell lifetime among users that frequently fast-charge. I don't know if that "slight increase" is statistically significant, and I don't know how it relates to the cells our bikes use, but at the very least it's a positive indication that fast-charging isn't harmful under all circumstances, and could even be evidence that it's beneficial.

I wonder if Tesla's active cooling lines that snake through the battery cells could be the X factor in that data study?
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KrazyEd

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Re: SLOW charging vs FAST charging and battery life
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2017, 10:07:48 AM »

An interesting contradiction to the fast charging of Teslas.
I read of a complaint recently from a Tesla owner who's
SuperCharger voltage was diminishing. The response from
Tesla is that HIS Tesla had almost exclusive SuperCharger
charges. They apparently have some sort of algorithm that
lowers the voltage from SuperCharger after a specific number
of Charges. Here is a link with what is supposed to be THEIR
side of things.

https://electrek.co/2017/05/07/tesla-limits-supercharging-speed-number-charges/
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togo

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Re: SLOW charging vs FAST charging and battery life
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2019, 03:31:00 AM »

> ... The only REAL concern with a good Li-ion battery is the temperature, plain and simple. Maximum charge and discharge rates are intended to keep the battery temperature within allowable limits, even the end-stage constant-voltage portion of the charging algorithm.
> ...

I know this is old, but this needs to be updated, since it still shows up in searches.

Both Tesla and Nissan have had people who always charge to 100% have problems.  Time spent at high or low charge level is very important.

So yes, temperature is important (passive Nissan Leave have had much more trouble than Teslas) but also when not in use, lithium batteries should not be left near the bottom or top state of charge (SoC).

And of course, espectially Gen1 Leaf no-active-cooling that always charge to 100% in hot climates had the worst results.


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DonTom

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Re: SLOW charging vs FAST charging and battery life
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2019, 11:53:58 AM »

Also it's best not to fast charge to 100% SOC.  I'm guilty and did it many times in the 78,000 miles so it didn't do anything drastic, but you are probably better off charging really fast to 80%, then unplugging and just stopping a little sooner between charging stations.
My Energica screen says the opposite, so is this just for Zero batteries?

When I fast charge my Energica when it gets to somewhere around 85% (IIRC), the screen  says do NOT unplug until charging is completed. However, it also says that is for the balancing to complete.

-Don-  Reno, NV
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Re: SLOW charging vs FAST charging and battery life
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2019, 01:51:10 PM »

I read the same about the Zero MC. It might be better to wait for the charge internal program to switch off automtically because of the balancing.
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