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[Doctorbass]

Ok yesterday i did another 110km ride and the only code i was seeing was 0020. the 0028 and 0029 was not.

But this morning  after a full charge in teh garage it show 0020 and 0028 again.

Yesterday i removed the tank and seat and disconnected the powertank and have put back the loopback connector  to reconvert it to only regular ZF13 and all code dissapeard.

So i have dryed all connector with hair dryer and added dielectric grease to the center pin block of both brown connectors of the ZF3.3  powertank adn also teh connector that connect to it. I was sure it would solve the problem..

But no.. i still get 0020 and 0028 and 0029... damn it!

I paid full price on a brand new Zero have one plug and play  to not have to spend time to troubleshoot or diy everything... and have time to ride instead ...

Fortunatly it operate anyway... but i hate having to troubleshoot 2 days and 200km after i got it....

Doc

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

That's definitely a frustrating situation for a new bike.

I suppose we should all express gratitude that Doctorbass can at least describe some knowledgeable troubleshooting approaches that we can learn from.

If we can figure out a safe, systematic way to troubleshoot and isolate various ground issues, I'll try to write it up as such.

Yesterday i removed the tank and seat and disconnected the powertank and have put back the loopback connector  to reconvert it to only regular ZF13 and all code dissapeard.

Well, that's certainly a good troubleshooting step. Can you describe how to do it safely in detail?

So i have dryed all connector with hair dryer and added dielectric grease to the center pin block of both brown connectors of the ZF3.3  powertank adn also teh connector that connect to it. I was sure it would solve the problem..

But no.. i still get 0020 and 0028 and 0029... damn it!

Are the faults reading from the BMS#1 log, or via the MBB only when the Power Tank is connected? Does the fault happen if the cable is connected but not the Power Tank itself? (I'm not sure that makes sense but it seems possible.)

It's not much comfort that a Power Tank is under warrantee with a long distance to the dealer.

[Electric Terry]

Try running with just the loopback connector for now.  I have done that too when I took the powertank out to use it as a template.  It is possible the module itself has poor isolation perhaps.  It would be interesting to check it with a different module.   With a DMM if you check the outside diagonal pins on the 8 way connection in the middle of the Anderson pins you can find pack voltage.  I would check voltage to the battery case from both pos and neg.  if you have leakage, of course take the powertank back to the dealer.  another short term solution that could help is to isolate the frame from touching the module.  There is enough room that you could insulate the base tray, back wall and top front corner where the J hooks tighten down the angle bracket with some 1/8" PVC plastic which are the only places the module touches the bike aside from the connector itself.  But best just to let the dealer deal with it.

[Doctorbass]

Thanks Terry  for the tips

UPDATE July 4 and odo showing now 530km on my 2017 SR!

Still  have the 0020 and 0028 and 0029 error code but the entire motorcycle work 100% no prob. It charge and run just fine, except this red triangle christmas light flashing on the dash....

I contacted Zero to open a service call thru the Zero apps and this sent the log of the bike. I also contacted my Zero Dealer witch is 250km from home. I wanted to keep him updated.

As you all know I will probably have to solve the problem mylelf as i have the experience to do it and also have the zero diagnostic harness kit and  software to diagnose.  But i will need all the help from the Service dep at Zero as well !

I guess they have already meet that problem with other customer's Zero and there is a chance that they know exactly where to look at.

Fortunatly it work fine!.. I hust hate to know that there is about 10kohm isolatino problem somewhere waiting to be corrected and maybe that there is some slow corrosion build up in that area...

Doc

I will try what terry suggest and will comeback with results.

[wijnand71]

Sad to read these problems. Personally I don't have this powertank, but I did had those Chassis Isolation errors also. I managed to get rid of them (almost for half a year now) completely. And I ride the bike even in heavy rain showers.

Here's what I did on the bottom of this post:
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6679.msg53503#msg53503

Hope this is of any help.

[Doctorbass]

UPDATE at 850km

PROBLEM FOUND!!! ( according to the zero diag flow chart)

I still have 0020, 0028 and 0029 Error.

The 0029 is called DANGEROUS

I followed the Zero flow chart to locate where the problem is. I used Teraterm and the level 2 acces to the BMS.

Here is a sumarry:

step 1: I first removed the powertank ( ZF3.3) to see if it could be that option that cause the error.
Result: Still have all 3 errors. Problem  could not be related to rthe powertank then...

Step 2: key off the bike

step 3: connected my portable PC to the Monolith BMS using my Zero diagnostic harness. ( We must make sure the laptop is not connected to the 120V as it can caus some error in the isolation test)

step 4: login using the level 2 acces

step 5: type: "test isolation -v" in teraterm

step 6: did the test passed?
-Yes: continu the diagnostic
-No: Is this a SDS motorcycle?
-Yes: Disconnect M1, M2 and M3 and the motor sensor connector type: "test isolation -v" in teraterm

step 7: did the test pass?
Yes: replace the motor
No: Disconnect B+ and B- and the motor sensor connector and type: "test isolation -v" in teraterm

step 8: did the test pass?
Yes: replace the motor CONTROLLER
No: disconnect the charger output connector and the charge signal connector and type: "test isolation -v" in teraterm

step 9: did the test pass?
Yes: Relace the charger
NO: Battery isolation problem and need to be replaced.


For my case it is the Controller that have isolation fault. When i disconnect the battery + and -  lead to the controller the test PASSED !

CONCLUSION: CONTROLLER IS IN PROBLEM OF ISOLATION ! ( well according to that flow chart...)

When i reconnected these the test failed...

I also tried to only connect the B+ or the B- on the controller and  both make isolation problem!

I will contact Zero tech on monday. to share this with them.

All that story wold have cost hundred of dollars of time to my dealer..

fortunatly for him i have the skill to do that. But i woudl appreciate more that time to ride my Zero than to diagnose it brand new 2017....

Doc



 

[Doctorbass]

Here is the log of the isolation test before and after disconnecting the motor controller:

ZERO BMS> test isolation -v
Running test "isolation"...

 Testing Chassis Isolation...
 - ADC VREF calibration value:               2 mV. ( Actual VREF: 3002 mV )
 - Raw Measured Voltage On   :              83 mV
 - Raw Measured Voltage Off  :               0 mV
 - Calibrated Voltage On     :            3337 mV
 - Calibrated Voltage Off    :               0 mV
 - Off lower current         :               0 nA
 - On upper current          :          506445 nA
 - On lower current          :           16270 nA
 - Equivalent Resistance To Cells (ohms):
   +=====+================+================+================
    Cell  On               Off              Difference
   +=====+================+================+================
    00              6807       2147483647       2147476840
    01              -826       2147483647       2147484473
    02             -8456       2147483647       2147492103
    03            -16084       2147483647       2147499731
    04            -23718       2147483647       2147507365
    05            -31352       2147483647       2147514999
    06            -38988       2147483647       2147522635
    07            -46620       2147483647       2147530267
    08            -54254       2147483647       2147537901
    09            -61890       2147483647       2147545537
    10            -69520       2147483647       2147553167
    11            -77152       2147483647       2147560799
    12            -84786       2147483647       2147568433
    13            -92424       2147483647       2147576071
    14           -100054       2147483647       2147583701
    15           -107681       2147483647       2147591328
    16           -115313       2147483647       2147598960
    17           -122952       2147483647       2147606599
    18           -130588       2147483647       2147614235
    19           -138226       2147483647       2147621873
    20           -145860       2147483647       2147629507
    21           -153500       2147483647       2147637147
    22           -161134       2147483647       2147644781
    23           -168770       2147483647       2147652417
    24           -176400       2147483647       2147660047
    25           -184036       2147483647       2147667683
    26           -191672       2147483647       2147675319
    27           -199310       2147483647       2147682957
    28           -206944       2147483647       2147690591
 - Minimum Passing R         :           20000 ohms
 - Cell with lowest R        :              00
   - R[00] On                :            6807 ohms
   - R[00] Off               :      2147483647 ohms
 - Isolation Resistance      :            6807 ohms
 - Isolation Resistance      :       0,006,807 ohms
 - ISOLATION LEVEL DANGEROUS!! RES BELOW 10000 OHMS


FAILED.




"Doc:   Then disconnecting B+ and B-  and the signal connectors on the controller"

ZERO BMS> test isolation -v
Running test "isolation"...

 Testing Chassis Isolation...
 - ADC VREF calibration value:               2 mV. ( Actual VREF: 3002 mV )
 - Raw Measured Voltage On   :             920 mV
 - Raw Measured Voltage Off  :               0 mV
 - Calibrated Voltage On     :           37038 mV
 - Calibrated Voltage Off    :               0 mV
 - Off lower current         :               0 nA
 - On upper current          :          337965 nA
 - On lower current          :          180585 nA
 - Equivalent Resistance To Cells (ohms):
   +=====+================+================+================
    Cell  On               Off              Difference
   +=====+================+================+================
    00            235341       2147483647       2147248306
    01            211570       2147483647       2147272077
    02            187800       2147483647       2147295847
    03            164036       2147483647       2147319611
    04            140259       2147483647       2147343388
    05            116482       2147483647       2147367165
    06             92699       2147483647       2147390948
    07             68935       2147483647       2147414712
    08             45151       2147483647       2147438496
    09             21375       2147483647       2147462272
    10             -2395       2147483647       2147486042
    11            -26159       2147483647       2147509806
    12            -49930       2147483647       2147533577
    13            -73713       2147483647       2147557360
    14            -97483       2147483647       2147581130
    15           -121241       2147483647       2147604888
    16           -145018       2147483647       2147628665
    17           -168801       2147483647       2147652448
    18           -192591       2147483647       2147676238
    19           -216374       2147483647       2147700021
    20           -240151       2147483647       2147723798
    21           -263947       2147483647       2147747594
    22           -287730       2147483647       2147771377
    23           -311513       2147483647       2147795160
    24           -335277       2147483647       2147818924
    25           -359060       2147483647       2147842707
    26           -382844       2147483647       2147866491
    27           -406627       2147483647       2147890274
    28           -430404       2147483647       2147914051
 - Minimum Passing R         :           20000 ohms
 - Cell with lowest R        :              00
   - R[00] On                :          235341 ohms
   - R[00] Off               :      2147483647 ohms
 - Isolation Resistance      :          235341 ohms
 - Isolation Resistance      :       0,235,341 ohms
 - PASSED


PASSED.



Doc

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

Ah, that's great that you can identify where something went wrong!

That description is very helpful, too, thank you! The test series makes a lot of sense. I assume each step requires up to a half hour to perform disconnects or reconnects safely. It'd be attractive if the connections could be safely directed by software commands, using the contactor and then CAN messages or other terminals to direct other components to manipulate their own disconnects.

Does the BMS serial terminal require anything more than the dealership cabling? Dealer software seems to be all Windows where drivers are often needed to deal with proprietary hardware arrangements.

[Doctorbass]

Ok some MORE update!

I have made videos, but before to show yu these i want to ask Zero if they agree with that as i'm using the dealer diag tools, then on monday probably i'll have the answers if i can post these public or not.

I made more test as the test i made in the video gave me different results again !!!

CHECK THIS OUT!!:

Last test i made is to completly disconnect everything from the controller except to leave it  bolted to the chassis, so M1,. M2 adn M3 and 35 pins are all disconnected. I tested the ohms resistance  and discovered that I GET 5 ohms betwen M2 connection of the controller and the chassis ground of the Zero !!!!!!!

5 ohms!! it's like the phase 2 of the controller must radiate  on the chassis alot of EMI under my butt when i crank the throttle  and push 775A to it !!!! .. My Zero is now an big battery powered ANTENNA!!.. but mo goal is not to make any radio show but to ride it !!!

Controller isolation seem the problem.. and to diagnose it no need  the Zero tool.. just need a DVM , patience and safety...

That kind of problem make me think that the isolation between one of the multiple mosfet  and controller alumimum case inside  and the aluminum heat sink must be compromized....

Doc

[Doctorbass]

Ok there is nothing cnofidential on the Part II so i can show you it... Part 1 will ne confirmed on monday!



Doc

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

Okay, a DVM run through once de-energized could be described pretty easily. It would eliminate a number of conditions without proprietary diagnostic equipment.

It'll be interesting to find out how the inside of your controller is to get a 5 Ohm reading. I assume you're not going to ride it while this is unresolved, since imbalanced impedance to ground seems like it could mean an imbalance on the motor shaft even if it didn't deteriorate into an arcing electrical fault.

[Doctorbass]

Okay, a DVM run through once de-energized could be described pretty easily. It would eliminate a number of conditions without proprietary diagnostic equipment.

It'll be interesting to find out how the inside of your controller is to get a 5 Ohm reading. I assume you're not going to ride it while this is unresolved, since imbalanced impedance to ground seems like it could mean an imbalance on the motor shaft even if it didn't deteriorate into an arcing electrical fault.

Brian, i'm not sure if you know that i have mentionned the controlelr was not connected  to any motor or anything else.. the only electrical path between the controller and teh rest of the Zero is the aluminum heatsink plate bolted to teh frame. The motor was not connected to it .  I get infinite ohms between the motor phase and the chassis. It should have no electrical current circulating in the motor shaft , rotor or case... all the chassis is simply directl to one of the phase.

Doc

[KrazyEd]

I think that your dealer, Zero Corporation or a combination of the two should reward you with something more than just riding time.

[Keith]

A word to wise. If you are poking around the high voltage wiring for any reason, be aware that there is stored charge of 100 volts or more around waiting to bite you, make arcs or worse. This is especially true of the motor and controller connections, but also the DC/DC, MBB and charger connectors.

I have found a way to discharge the bike that is quick, easy and works. A regular incandescent light bulb is of course rated for 120V and is low resistance and capable of quickly and safely discharging the wiring. A low wattage bulb will have a lower surge current while discharging. I find the best place to connect such a bulb is across the external charger contacts.  No guarantees that doing that removes all of the hazards, but this method has worked well for me.

The Zero owners manual says don't touch the orange wires, good advice for sure.

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

It'll be interesting to find out how the inside of your controller is to get a 5 Ohm reading. I assume you're not going to ride it while this is unresolved, since imbalanced impedance to ground seems like it could mean an imbalance on the motor shaft even if it didn't deteriorate into an arcing electrical fault.

Brian, i'm not sure if you know that i have mentionned the controlelr was not connected  to any motor or anything else.. the only electrical path between the controller and teh rest of the Zero is the aluminum heatsink plate bolted to teh frame. The motor was not connected to it .  I get infinite ohms between the motor phase and the chassis. It should have no electrical current circulating in the motor shaft , rotor or case... all the chassis is simply directl to one of the phase.

Doc

Yes, I understand that and thanks for making it clear for everybody, but I don't think it eliminates the possibility of an asymmetrically applied field. What I'm suggesting is that while operating, the voltage applied to one phase could be affected by the altered frame ground state, even without a complete circuit.

I mean, my reasoning here is sketchy but I'm trying to understand risks.