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Author Topic: CHASSIS ISOLATION DANGER: 2 KOhms to cell 2  (Read 659 times)

Keith

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CHASSIS ISOLATION DANGER: 2 KOhms to cell 2
« on: June 29, 2017, 09:11:32 PM »

I'm fighting a war against isolation warnings on my FX. I saw this with a cable connection this morning "CHASSIS ISOLATION DANGER: 2 KOhms to cell 2" The log file has this instead "08147     06/29/2017 08:28:51   Low Chassis Isolation      2 KOhms to cell 2"  Interesting how different the presentation is for the same event. Anyway, I've done a lot of work trying to make this better, even though it hasn't affected the bikes performance in any way. I don't like seeing the red light flicker while I'm on the trail, and maybe it really is dangerous. The readings change rapidly, from 2K to 78K a few minutes later. So I'm not sure how real the problem is. But I've attacked the chassis wiring, removed all of the side panels, cleaned and replaced dielectric grease on every orange wrapped connector, put it all back together and it works (whew!) but when I hooked up the serial cable to see improvement, I got DANGER instead.

I've swapped through all four packs, one at a time and in both positions, with no significant differences. Plenty of warnings still with each. So right now my packs are in the sun with the plugs removed to hopefully dry out. I'd do more but I have almost four years of pack warranty to lose. I'm going to try to measure resistance from 100v connections to the frame with no pack. I don't know if the 12V wiring is also checked for isolation. I decided to start this war when the DC-DC converter didn't turn off. That connector is not sealed and has the enable line adjacent to the +100V pin so it isn't surprising that the mud I found there was causing trouble. This is West Virginia coal country mud, probably more conductive than most.

Here's a picture of the battlefield, I already put it in the wiki in the Routing section. I note that the component locations are very different on the FX than other models. Any advice is welcome.
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wontuan

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Re: CHASSIS ISOLATION DANGER: 2 KOhms to cell 2
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2017, 10:30:19 PM »

Leave the batteries disconnected and measure resistance with a DMM from B- to chassis/heatsink on the sevcon controller.
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Ndm

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Re: CHASSIS ISOLATION DANGER: 2 KOhms to cell 2
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2017, 10:45:03 PM »

Is it a rapid five flash, I had this when my dc/DC converter shorted internally, remove the enable pin from the harness and see if it goes away, protect the enable pin because it has monolith voltage when the key is on
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rayivers

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Re: CHASSIS ISOLATION DANGER: 2 KOhms to cell 2
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2017, 11:05:32 PM »

Keith,

Nice diagram!  If it were me I'd measure resistance from every terminal I could access to a clean chassis ground (if your meter can eliminate lead resistance, I'd do that to assess chassis ground connections accurately), starting with the two battery connectors - both packs out, obviously - and while the alarm is active.

Ray
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BrianTRice

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Re: CHASSIS ISOLATION DANGER: 2 KOhms to cell 2
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2017, 01:19:29 AM »

Keith, thanks for turning your troubles into some documentation! I'll try to code up a good amount of that for the wiki.

The suggestions so far sound sensible; hopefully something relieves your problem soon.

Electrical troubleshooting like this can be a tough slog, and I have more than half a mind to produce an isolation guide but it's quite daunting. Maybe this will get it started.
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Keith

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Re: CHASSIS ISOLATION DANGER: 2 KOhms to cell 2
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2017, 02:36:40 AM »

So I've done the DMM measurements from the pack input terminals to the chassis. They are not precise, readings vary with probe polarity, time, and which meter and range is used. However, my best guess is that the actual wiring isolation is about 280K - 300K ohms so not bad and not what the log shows.

My next thought is that this isolation data must be coming from the BMS's since the bike MBB can't tell one cell from another. So I'll get all four BMS logs and see what they have to say. That will take some time and it looks like rain so maybe tomorrow I can report.

I wonder if the low readings in the log (less than 10K on rare occasions) are just a fluke caused by some capacitor charging rather than real leakage to the chassis. I have twice seen the DANGER message right when turning the bike on after having no pack connected for a long time. THen later warnings are in the 50K - 100K range, much less worrisome. In any case the DC-DC converter problem seems to be resolved by cleaning up the wiring connectors. Next we'll see if the packs enjoyed sunbathing...
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Keith

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Re: CHASSIS ISOLATION DANGER: 2 KOhms to cell 2
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2017, 03:24:58 AM »

Still no joy in my isolation war. I've now seen the on bike charger refuse to work, apparently due to a BMS isolation error, log snip below. I'm going to continue to dry out the packs. Super humid here so my best idea is to keep them open in airconditioner air with a heat lamp to keep them warm. One pack has a light pattern that isn't in the owner's manual. Red, skips one, green, green, dead LED?

I found one more unknown log file type for the parser update.

Code: [Select]
07709     07/01/2017 10:53:19   Module 01   
 07710                     923   DEBUG: Module 01 Contactor is now Open   
 07711                     924   0x37 0xb2 0x22 0x3c ???

 07308     07/01/2017 07:53:19   Module 01 CAN Disconnect   vmod:   0.000V
 07309                     923   DEBUG: Module 01 Contactor is now Open
 07310                     924   BT RX buffer overflow detected

This doesn't end well, log of trying to charge on the bike. Charged the same packs externally just now, seemed ok.
 08222     07/01/2017 14:30:12   Module 00 CAN Link Down   
 08223     07/01/2017 14:30:12   Module 00 CAN Link Up   
 08224     07/01/2017 14:30:13   Sevcon Turned On   
 08225     07/01/2017 14:30:14   Sevcon CAN Link Up   
 08226     07/01/2017 14:30:14   DEBUG: Sevcon Contactor Drive ON.   
 08227     07/01/2017 14:30:14   Module 00                  vmod: 105.922 maxsys: 105.914 minsys: 105.914 diff: 0.000 vcap: 95.062 prechg: 89%
 08228     07/01/2017 14:30:14   DEBUG: Module 00 Contactor is now Closed   
 08229     07/01/2017 14:30:14   INFO:  Enabling Calex 720W Charger 0   
 08230     07/01/2017 14:30:14   INFO:  Enabling Calex 1200W Charger 1   
 08231     07/01/2017 14:30:14   INFO:  Enabling External Chg 0 Charger 2   
 08232     07/01/2017 14:30:14   INFO:  Enabling External Chg 1 Charger 3   
 08233     07/01/2017 14:30:21   Charging                   PackTemp: h 39C, l 39C, AmbTemp: 29C, PackSOC: 73%, Vpack:105.922V, BattAmps:   0, Mods: 01, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 08234     07/01/2017 14:35:14   INFO:  Disabling Calex 720W Charger 0   
 08235     07/01/2017 14:35:14   INFO:  Disabling Calex 1200W Charger 1   
 08236     07/01/2017 14:35:14   Module 00 CAN Link Down   
 08237     07/01/2017 14:35:14   DEBUG: Charge Fault Occured. Sevcon trying to close contactor, but one was not closed quickly enough   
 08238     07/01/2017 14:35:14   Sevcon Turned Off   
 08239     07/01/2017 14:35:14   DEBUG: Sevcon Contactor Drive OFF   
 08240     07/01/2017 14:35:14   Module 00                  vmod: 106.029V, batt curr: 0A
 08241     07/01/2017 14:35:14   Module 01                  vmod: 0V, batt curr: 0A
 08242     07/01/2017 14:35:14   CAN1 ACK error. count=1   
 08243     07/01/2017 14:35:16   ERROR: Internal Fault on BMS0   
 08244     07/01/2017 14:35:16   Module 00                  vmod: 106.035V, batt curr: 0A
 08245     07/01/2017 14:35:16   Module 01                  vmod: 0V, batt curr: 0A
 08246     07/01/2017 14:35:17   Module 00 CAN Link Up   
 08247     07/01/2017 14:35:17   DEBUG: Module 00 Contactor is now Open   
 08248     07/01/2017 14:35:17   Sevcon Turned On   
 08249     07/01/2017 14:35:17   DEBUG: Sevcon Contactor Drive ON.   
 08250     07/01/2017 14:35:17   Sevcon CAN Link Down   
 08251     07/01/2017 14:35:18   Sevcon CAN Link Up   
 08252     07/01/2017 14:35:18   DEBUG: Sevcon Contactor Drive OFF   
 08253     07/01/2017 14:35:18   DEBUG: Sevcon Contactor Drive ON.   
 08254     07/01/2017 14:35:18   Module 00                  vmod: 106.099 maxsys: 106.123 minsys: 106.123 diff: 0.000 vcap: 97.562 prechg: 91%
 08255     07/01/2017 14:35:19   DEBUG: Module 00 Contactor is now Closed   
 08256     07/01/2017 14:35:19   INFO:  Enabling Calex 720W Charger 0   
 08257     07/01/2017 14:35:19   INFO:  Enabling Calex 1200W Charger 1   
 08258     07/01/2017 14:40:21   Charging                   PackTemp: h 38C, l 38C, AmbTemp: 30C, PackSOC: 73%, Vpack:106.039V, BattAmps:   1, Mods: 01, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 08259     07/01/2017 14:41:17   INFO:  Disabling Calex 720W Charger 0   
 08260     07/01/2017 14:41:17   INFO:  Disabling Calex 1200W Charger 1   
 08261     07/01/2017 14:41:17   Module 00 CAN Link Down   
 08262     07/01/2017 14:41:17   DEBUG: Charge Fault Occured. Sevcon trying to close contactor, but one was not closed quickly enough   
 08263     07/01/2017 14:41:17   Sevcon Turned Off   
 08264     07/01/2017 14:41:17   DEBUG: Sevcon Contactor Drive OFF   
 08265     07/01/2017 14:41:17   Module 00                  vmod: 106.016V, batt curr: 0A
 08266     07/01/2017 14:41:17   Module 01                  vmod: 0V, batt curr: 0A
 08267     07/01/2017 14:41:17   CAN1 ACK error. count=1   
 08268     07/01/2017 14:41:19   ERROR: Internal Fault on BMS0   
 08269     07/01/2017 14:41:19   Module 00                  vmod: 106.021V, batt curr: 0A
 08270     07/01/2017 14:41:19   Module 01                  vmod: 0V, batt curr: 0A
 08271     07/01/2017 14:41:19   Module 00 CAN Link Up   
 08272     07/01/2017 14:41:19   DEBUG: Module 00 Contactor is now Open   
 08273     07/01/2017 14:41:20   Sevcon Turned On   
 08274     07/01/2017 14:41:20   DEBUG: Sevcon Contactor Drive ON.   
 08275     07/01/2017 14:41:20   Sevcon CAN Link Down   
 08276     07/01/2017 14:41:21   Sevcon CAN Link Up   
 08277     07/01/2017 14:41:21   DEBUG: Sevcon Contactor Drive OFF   
 08278     07/01/2017 14:41:21   DEBUG: Sevcon Contactor Drive ON.   
 08279     07/01/2017 14:41:21   Module 00                  vmod: 106.144 maxsys: 106.168 minsys: 106.168 diff: 0.000 vcap: 97.625 prechg: 91%
 08280     07/01/2017 14:41:21   DEBUG: Module 00 Contactor is now Closed   
 08281     07/01/2017 14:41:21   INFO:  Enabling Calex 720W Charger 0   
 08282     07/01/2017 14:41:21   INFO:  Enabling Calex 1200W Charger 1   
 08283     07/01/2017 14:46:21   INFO:  Disabling Calex 720W Charger 0   
 08284     07/01/2017 14:46:21   INFO:  Disabling Calex 1200W Charger 1   
 08285     07/01/2017 14:46:21   Module 00 CAN Link Down   
 08286     07/01/2017 14:46:21   DEBUG: Charge Fault Occured. Sevcon trying to close contactor, but one was not closed quickly enough   
 08287     07/01/2017 14:46:21   Sevcon Turned Off   
 08288     07/01/2017 14:46:21   DEBUG: Sevcon Contactor Drive OFF   
 08289     07/01/2017 14:46:21   Module 00                  vmod: 106.164V, batt curr: 0A
 08290     07/01/2017 14:46:21   Module 01                  vmod: 0V, batt curr: 0A
 08291     07/01/2017 14:46:21   CAN1 ACK error. count=1   
 08292     07/01/2017 14:46:23   ERROR: Internal Fault on BMS0   
 08293     07/01/2017 14:46:23   Module 00                  vmod: 106.168V, batt curr: 0A
 08294     07/01/2017 14:46:23   Module 01                  vmod: 0V, batt curr: 0A
 08295     07/01/2017 14:46:23   Module 00 CAN Link Up   
 08296     07/01/2017 14:46:23   DEBUG: Module 00 Contactor is now Open   
 08297     07/01/2017 14:46:24   Sevcon Turned On   
 08298     07/01/2017 14:46:24   DEBUG: Sevcon Contactor Drive ON.   
 08299     07/01/2017 14:46:24   Sevcon CAN Link Down   
 08300     07/01/2017 14:46:25   Sevcon CAN Link Up   
 08301     07/01/2017 14:46:25   DEBUG: Sevcon Contactor Drive OFF   
 08302     07/01/2017 14:46:25   DEBUG: Sevcon Contactor Drive ON.   
 08303     07/01/2017 14:46:25   Module 00                  vmod: 106.169 maxsys: 106.197 minsys: 106.197 diff: 0.000 vcap: 97.625 prechg: 91%
 08304     07/01/2017 14:46:26   DEBUG: Module 00 Contactor is now Closed   
 08305     07/01/2017 14:46:26   INFO:  Enabling Calex 720W Charger 0   
 08306     07/01/2017 14:46:26   INFO:  Enabling Calex 1200W Charger 1   
 08307     07/01/2017 14:50:21   Charging                   PackTemp: h 38C, l 38C, AmbTemp: 30C, PackSOC: 73%, Vpack:106.012V, BattAmps:   0, Mods: 01, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
 08308     07/01/2017 14:51:41   INFO:  Disabling Calex 720W Charger 0   
 08309     07/01/2017 14:51:41   INFO:  Disabling Calex 1200W Charger 1   
 08310     07/01/2017 14:51:41   Module 00 CAN Link Down   
 08311     07/01/2017 14:51:41   DEBUG: Charge Fault Occured. Sevcon trying to close contactor, but one was not closed quickly enough   
 08312     07/01/2017 14:51:41   INFO:  Disabling External Chg 0 Charger 2   
 08313     07/01/2017 14:51:41   INFO:  Disabling External Chg 1 Charger 3   
 08314     07/01/2017 14:51:41   Sevcon Turned Off   
 08315     07/01/2017 14:51:41   Shutting Down. Too many Charge faults.
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Keith

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Re: CHASSIS ISOLATION DANGER: 2 KOhms to cell 2
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2017, 05:58:28 AM »

Seems this is the BMS error that stopped the on bike charging.

ERROR: State Machine Charge Fault. Mode:2, I:525mA, dV/dt:-55mV/m(9mV/m), TSSC:600010ms, TSCO:529167ms, TIPS:531516ms

This error occurred 5 and 7 times today in two packs. I then charged them off bike with no problem.  The error message is followed by a long dump of cell voltages with 600 readings. I wonder how serious this is?

Only other BMS log errors were lots of PL536 read errors going back many months on all four packs and some contactor voltage jumped unexpectedly. 
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Doctorbass

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Re: CHASSIS ISOLATION DANGER: 2 KOhms to cell 2
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2017, 08:35:37 PM »

Keith, This look similar to the error i got.. on my brand new 2017 SR that have now 200km on it... ONLY

When i picked up the bike at the dealer and came back to Quebec with it on a trailer and   about 250km from there, i had a intense rain shower during 10km and when i was looking on tyhe rear mirror of the car i was seeing alot of turbulence in teh rain witch i know made alot of water entering in the bike.. however i was not worried because i knew that these kind of problem had improoved solitinon in teh bike harness design  over the years...

Then  when arrived my bike stayed 1 day in teh garage  because we had also anotehr day of rain... the bike remained inside my garage.

Then 2 days after i had the bike i went for a run with my wife and everything whent very nicely until the night when we  visited friends. When we returned to home i saw this red triangle flashing.. huh?? it was about 22h and there was alot of moisture in the air... just like what make the bike seat to have water on it few hours after the sun is down.

I also like you troubleshooted  to diagnose teh problem and fix it.
my error code was: 0020, 0028, 0029 and isolation fault between cell 3 and the chassis

I also communicated with the battery specialist of Zero and he said that the cell number is not necessarely related to the cell of teh pack but that teh  isolation problem is more like a voltage level relative to the ground (-).. so for me it is a 12V  probably from all the 12v line or close to teh DC-Dc...  cell 3 mean a voltage that is equivalent to 3 cell in serie.. thatMs teh way the detection work.. it relativise to a cell level to teh ground...  for exemple if the dc-dc wopuld be a 24V output and all the actual 12V line would be a 24V instead, the problem of isolation would say:  isolation fault to cell 6... instead... you see?

Actually for me the bike never stoped working or charging...

The battery specialist of Zero ( sorry i dont want to mention his name as i dont want him to be bothered with all kind of problem as he is not the Zero customer service) suggested to me to disconnect the powertank ( brown connector and smaller multipins connector) and see of problem dissapear. Witch i did.

and problem dissapeared!... so i tried to dry all connections related to the powertank and after i added ALOT of dielectric grease to make sure ALL SINGLE WIRES can not get resistance to the chassis or other adjacent wires and connected back the powertank harness.

I powered up the bike and saw the same problem.. 0020, 0028  but no 0029... ok.. 2 code to fix now...  one positive step done!

I went for few ride after that during the 4th day and the only code i was seeing in teh dash was 0020... wthc is what i think the basic isolation fault.

This morning the code i see are 0020, 0028 and 0045...

Curiously after all these days and the bike that spent so much time in teh garage and had a 24" blower on it for 24h and had 100km of 100kmh wind during a ride, it should have no more water in any connections...!

I wil try to reset teh BMS with teh two button and see if the codes dissapears.

Doc





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BrianTRice

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Re: CHASSIS ISOLATION DANGER: 2 KOhms to cell 2
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2017, 09:21:51 PM »

I suspect that if something (dust? stray tiny metal shavings?) on the BMS board itself were causing a minor fault, that it might trigger the self-diagnostic code.

Of course, no power tank brick should have a problem like that, but you've definitely eliminated all the other likely sources of the problem.

Whether it's a good idea for you to uncover the power tank is a judgement call. Obviously, Zero would want the dealer involved.
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Keith

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Re: CHASSIS ISOLATION DANGER: 2 KOhms to cell 2
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2017, 10:45:26 PM »

Thanks for the detail Doc, appreciated. I have reset my packs and had them drying, will do another test run soon. The owners manual says the BMS will disable charging only for high or low temperature. No chance of that but I did see one temperature warning from the app. Nonsense, 80 degrees F, bike in the shade, not ridden at all so an erroneous error. What is strange to me is the sudden appearance of the State Machine Error in two packs. That never happened before and I have no idea what changed to cause it. Haven't ridden the bike lately due to wiring maintenance. Took the packs out first of course.
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Keith

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Re: CHASSIS ISOLATION DANGER: 2 KOhms to cell 2
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2017, 05:22:05 AM »

I am now pretty sure that whatever is causing my on bike charging to fail is NOT a BMS problem is spite of what the logs and errors say. I can't believe that all four of my packs have independently developed isolation errors and state machine errors at the same time when I wasn't even riding.  So it must be in the bike chassis wiring. Something is making the BMS unhappy and it isn't in the packs (or at least it wasn't). When riding I see 0020, 0025, 0047, 0049 then 0000 and it runs fine. But when I plug in the on bike charger it tries and then fails as the earlier log I posted shows. The BMS logs all show the State Machine Error and that causes on bike charging to stop.  If I had no external chargers I'd be unable to ride. But external charging works, and nothing bad shows in the BMS logs when I do it. I'm wondering if this might be a CANbus problem. That might  make sense if the external chargers don't use CANbus. What else could it be??

Oh saw 0006 just now. BMS Throttle Enable Wire error. So far it hasn't affected riding...
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BrianTRice

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Re: CHASSIS ISOLATION DANGER: 2 KOhms to cell 2
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2017, 05:51:45 AM »

At least you inspired me to put error code "explanations" on the wiki:
http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Dash_Display
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Keith

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Re: CHASSIS ISOLATION DANGER: 2 KOhms to cell 2
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2017, 10:43:43 PM »

Still no joy in my battle against errors. Now I have a new code: 15. That means "Charger Attached But Not Charging" not good at all. So is my Calex fried? Maybe, but here's the surprise. I connect my external charger to the bike, that I know works fine off the bike, and it won't charge either. BTW that nice green charging light on the dash can turn red and flash quickly. No mention of the red in the owners manual. And the log files don't help either. So now I can only charge off bike and it doesn't look like the chargers are the problem. Contactors close and it tries but fails. Maybe the charging current path is open? Time to study the wiring diagram. :(

On the plus side, the bike works fine. Still seeing 0020, 0025, 0047, 0049 but they go away and it works like new. I even rode 50 miles of Virginia coal country trails without a problem. Helped my friend fix his KTM 500 on the trail when a stick sheared off his lower coolant hose. We were able to get it reconnected, fill the system with our drinking water and make it 15 miles back to the trailhead. One more thing that can't go wrong on a Zero.

The fine manual shows four high voltage fuses. Only found one so far, it is between the external charger + and the Sevcon B+. That would explain things if blown but it is ok. Three more left to find, under the orange sheathing it says.

Found all four high voltages fuses. I'll put photos on the wiki, the drawings in the manual are not very good. All fuses test ok, now what?
« Last Edit: July 09, 2017, 02:38:44 AM by Keith »
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2016 Zero FX, 2014 KTM 1190

Keith

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Re: CHASSIS ISOLATION DANGER: 2 KOhms to cell 2
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2017, 11:22:56 PM »

I now find that I can use my external chargers when connected to the bike. I had forgotten that the procedure requires turning the bike on before connecting AC to the external charger. Neglecting that sequence causes the charge light to flicker red. Pilot error. It does look like my Calex on board charger has definitely failed however. It does not wake up the bike, and if I turn the bike on while it is connected, it tries to charge and then fails, error 15. The on board charger also can't be used to start the charging process from the externals since the bike doesn't see it as powered.
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2016 Zero FX, 2014 KTM 1190
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