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Author Topic: Limp mode at 25%  (Read 2584 times)

kurt nt

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Limp mode at 25%
« on: May 22, 2017, 05:46:52 PM »

My 2015 SR has been running out of power or going into limp mode when the battery is reading 25% power left.
I am barely able to get the bike home when this happens.
I don't know what is causing this. Temp readings are all normal.
This problem makes the machine useless to me.
Has anyone else had this problem?

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MostlyBonkers

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Re: Limp mode at 25%
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2017, 05:48:53 PM »

My 2015 SR has been running out of power or going into limp mode when the battery is reading 25% power left.
I am barely able to get the bike home when this happens.
I don't know what is causing this. Temp readings are all normal.
This problem makes the machine useless to me.
Has anyone else had this problem?

Get the latest firmware installed (for free) by your local dealer.
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skoleskibe

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Re: Limp mode at 25%
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2017, 05:51:38 PM »

How fast are you able to go in limp mode?
Try to pull the log, probably one cell at low voldtage


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nevetsyad

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Re: Limp mode at 25%
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2017, 06:05:01 PM »

Check your logs in the parcer. My bike was dropping to 26% output, when it had 60+ percent free. Showed my voltage dropping to 90-92v when I still had 30-60% SOC. It started doing that after a December/January firmware update to stop it from randomly turning off while riding. Roll the dice and see what the next firmware update brings! If I'm stable now, I'm NEVER updating my firmware again.
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Richard230

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Re: Limp mode at 25%
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2017, 07:51:58 PM »

Check your logs in the parcer. My bike was dropping to 26% output, when it had 60+ percent free. Showed my voltage dropping to 90-92v when I still had 30-60% SOC. It started doing that after a December/January firmware update to stop it from randomly turning off while riding. Roll the dice and see what the next firmware update brings! If I'm stable now, I'm NEVER updating my firmware again.

And that is why I don't mess with my 2014's original firmware.  I don't have any of these problems, not even a large drop in top speed at 8% SOC. (At least I know it will do 45 mph at 8%. I wasn't willing to try to go any faster being more concerned about getting home than top speed testing with a depleted battery pack.)
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Kocho

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Re: Limp mode at 25%
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2017, 08:06:54 PM »

Lowe power at really low SoC is *not* a bad thing, it protects the battery. So I think in this case, unless the newer firmware is overly aggressive, it would be a good thing to restrict power. But not limp at 25%, that's too aggressive, IMO ...

Check your logs in the parcer. My bike was dropping to 26% output, when it had 60+ percent free. Showed my voltage dropping to 90-92v when I still had 30-60% SOC. It started doing that after a December/January firmware update to stop it from randomly turning off while riding. Roll the dice and see what the next firmware update brings! If I'm stable now, I'm NEVER updating my firmware again.

And that is why I don't mess with my 2014's original firmware.  I don't have any of these problems, not even a large drop in top speed at 8% SOC. (At least I know it will do 45 mph at 8%. I wasn't willing to try to go any faster being more concerned about getting home than top speed testing with a depleted battery pack.)
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BrianTRice@gmail.com

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Re: Limp mode at 25%
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2017, 10:37:41 PM »

My 2015 SR has been running out of power or going into limp mode when the battery is reading 25% power left.
I am barely able to get the bike home when this happens.
I don't know what is causing this. Temp readings are all normal.
This problem makes the machine useless to me.
Has anyone else had this problem?

Early limp mode is typically likely triggered by an abnormal cell imbalance. Check the battery tab in your mobile Zero app (or logs) for cell imbalance and if it is more than a dozen mV (say), put the bike on a charger for more than 24 hours and see if it cancels out and doesn't limp as much at low SoC.
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nevetsyad

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Re: Limp mode at 25%
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2017, 10:43:30 PM »

There was a bug in a firmware level that caused voltage sensors to go wonky if you rode fast for a while. Dealer said WOT, but I never ride WOT for more than a second. Update came out a few weeks ago that fixes it.
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Electric Terry

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Re: Limp mode at 25%
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2017, 10:46:34 PM »

Zero should soon be putting battery voltage on the riding screen for the app I hope, as it is the ONLY metric you can trust when it comes to range left.  Amp Hours, Kwh remaining, range, distance to empty, SOC all rely on the current sensors and coulomb counting.  I have run empty at 30% before, and I have gone 30+ miles after hitting 0%.  If you hit the inside BMS button to do a reset, all of those metrics will change drastically, except voltage.  Voltage is the one thing that you can always trust as it will never lie.  It is what it is.  And that's the great thing about it.  Not sure why it isn't on the Zero App yet, but logically it ultimately will be, and hopefully soon.

Until then I have a hack that I use everyday until Zero puts Voltage as a choice on the app. and for me it would go right dead center in the middle.  And that's to set the display to turn off quicker and let the phone time out and go blank while riding.  Press the center button once, and the screen comes back on with the Zero app in the background and a pop up window that will say something like "reconnected to bike" and you have to press ok.  but now for me it stays on the battery page while I'm riding.  And now I can see battery voltage from the battery page on the app while riding to the next charge station.

Under load on the highway if you ever get close to 93 volts while going 70 mph, you will soon be restricted by top speed and should plan to charge with a fast charger soon.  The power discharge map will not let you pull more power than to go below 93 volts at first.  I believe it's about 35,000 watts accelerating uphill that is the max power you can get once you've felt the cutback.  At this point you have about 10 miles to empty at highway speeds, about 40 miles to empty if you instantly get off the highway and start going 25-35 mph on surface streets (the last 10 miles will be painfully slow however).  If you have all the charging stations on your route memorized, you can plan accordingly.  Keep in mind if you go off throttle at this point you have about 96-97 volts in the pack.

The bike will roll under its own power down to 88 volts but it is extremely slow!  The only times I ever see 88 volts is when I get to my planned charge station and its occupied or out of service and I have to sometimes go another 10 miles to find one and I already arrived at my calculated 0% on the dash (I like to ride fast enough to try to always plan to arrive at exactly 0% each time as 99.9% of the time it is just fine, and you can always charge with 110v for a few minutes if you need to).  I should mention the chargepoint app will show blue if the station is occupied and gray if the station is out of service.  So you can check at your previous charge stop ahead of time to see if you need to make alternate plans.  This is another reason the chargepoint app is much more useful than plugshare.  There are about 20 reasons but this is definitely one of them if you choose to use it. 

Once you cross past the 93 volt barrier to 90-92 volts you will go progressively slower at speeds below what main traffic roads can handle so plan a route with back roads or neighborhood roads.  Avoid a route with any incline hills as you will have to push or have your dog pull you with your charge cord, as the power is limited, not the speed.  So just because you could do 20 mph on flat ground you might not be able to even go 1 mph up an incline road without assisting.

Lets hope an new app is released soon with voltage on the display.  After a quick learning curve so you understand voltage sag under load, its the only metric you need to predict range accurately.  I rarely trust my SOC meter if I have access to voltage on the app.

If any of this sounds confusing just know that if you see 95 volts or below while maintaining 70 mph on the freeway on flat ground, and your dash says 45% left, that you might want to trust that it's really about 15% left and start expecting a power cutback soon and just stop in at the closest charge station and quickly top off using multiple J plugs if you have the Diginow chargers or other fast chargers.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 11:17:56 PM by Electric Terry »
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Burton

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Re: Limp mode at 25%
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2017, 11:35:18 PM »

Terry this is great information!

Having installed my Cycle Analyst (CA) I am now able to see voltage in real time and it is amazing the amount of "voltage sag" you get when throttling on hard.

I didn't realize the SOC on the zero dash only counted Ah's used ... I know the CA does this as well but the main SOC indicator seems to be driven off voltage and not Ah's.

Would you configure a CA to have "pack low voltage" at 87 or something closer to 93 given the behavior you described knowing the SOC indicator is based off this or just leave it as is and only look at voltage? ... now that I think about it both have their merits and the former doesn't change anything to the latter so ... guess I kind of answered my question lol

I need to modify my turret and put a dash up there so I can see my CA and Koso easier as right now they are blocked and require some odd head positioning to see them in real time lol

If there is any suggestion you can give to a new CA user to make it "work" to their betterment I would love to hear them :D
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nevetsyad

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Re: Limp mode at 25%
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2017, 08:13:53 AM »

Isn't SOC based on watt hours in and out of the battery? When my pack showed 90 volts, I had plenty of range left, I'd only done maybe 20 miles. The percent remaining and estimated range has always been right.
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mrwilsn

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Re: Limp mode at 25%
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2017, 11:24:45 AM »

Isn't SOC based on watt hours in and out of the battery? When my pack showed 90 volts, I had plenty of range left, I'd only done maybe 20 miles. The percent remaining and estimated range has always been right.

When your logs showed 90 volts something was wrong with your bike (but you already know that....why you took it in).  Even under load 90V is way too low for the SOC you reported (somewhere in the 60's right?).  Allow me to demonstrate.

Here I am at 8% SOC going 30 mph and I am at 97V.



Here I am flogging it at 66% SOC going 67 mph (and rising) and I am at 98V



But once I let off the throttle and still at 66% SOC but now going 81 mph and I am at almost 103V



SOC is calculated by putting a stake in the ground when the bike wakes up.  It checks voltage and assigns the SOC accordingly.  Then you start to ride and the bike starts to monitor current and adjusts SOC based on how many trons it thinks you have used.  But current fluctuates so much during riding and the bike can only sample current so fast so it can't perfectly measure the amount of energy used so it doesn't always keep up with reality.

Sometimes it will catch up.  If you were watching your Zero slow charge (fun Saturday night) you might, for example, see the display SOC jump from 79% to 92%.  But if you were also watching voltage it would not have changed.

79% SOC and voltage is 112.84V (app shows 112V)



92% SOC but voltage is still 112.84V (app shows 112V)



Terry is 100% correct....the bike's need to show voltage while riding and while charging.  Of course, the app will already show you volts while charging.  And adding volts as an option for the riding screen in the app is a start.  But in my opinion, volts and amps should be prominently displayed right on the bike display.  You shouldn't have to pull out your phone and pair it to the bike in order to figure out the bike's battery voltage.  That's why I took things into my own hands and installed a DVM.  I shouldn't have to do it because it should already be right on the display (to at least 1 decimal place for volts).

Starting with 2015 you at least don't have problems where the bike will say you have 10-15% left and then suddenly drop to 0% and stop moving. If you had a DVM in that situation you would see the SOC saying 10% but see voltage is at 90V and know the bike is about to die instead of it being a total surprise.  The SOC calculation improved even more for 2017 bikes but you can still see big SOC jumps even when slow charging....forget about fast charging.

Voltage = accurate measurement that is extremely useful in gauging how much energy you have in your battery
SOC = an OK estimate that's kinda useful sometimes
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Manzanita

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Re: Limp mode at 25%
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2017, 04:07:22 PM »

Well after reading this thread, I for one would like to see a write-up or more info on installing a voltage display directly from the battery!

Two wires, right, it should be simple? I guess the question is: where is the easiest place to access the battery voltage? Under the seat?

Ideally a voltage display that is smaller than the above photos. I actually have added a voltage display to the 12 volt battery on my 1981 honda to monitor that the charging system stator has not died, which is a problem on older bikes...
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MrDude_1

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Re: Limp mode at 25%
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2017, 06:44:08 PM »

Zero should soon be putting battery voltage on the riding screen for the app I hope, as it is the ONLY metric you can trust when it comes to range left.  Amp Hours, Kwh remaining, range, distance to empty, SOC all rely on the current sensors and coulomb counting.

While I agree it should be an option, don't forget that most people are not familiar with basic electrical principles, never mind technical EV knowledge.

Alot of them will be confused when the voltage goes up after they stop, or goes down when they turn onto the highway... Sure we understand it, and it seems so simple... but until the average high school kid knows  basic electrical principles, the general public are better off letting a watt meter do it for them.
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Lenny

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Re: Limp mode at 25%
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2017, 07:38:29 PM »

Two wires, right, it should be simple? I guess the question is: where is the easiest place to access the battery voltage? Under the seat?

You can attach them to the controller, which is the easiest to reach and do I guess. Anderson connector (aux charge port) would also be possible.
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