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[Shadow]

I just got the same letter last week (2016 FX). This policy of Zero is really admirable.

I'll wait until the next regular service to have it done because there is no indication of any problem or improvement right now.

It is recommended every bike in operation get firmware updated as of that announcement. There were some tweaks for the various model years.

[togo]

I would love a programmable SOC charge limit via the app, just like Tesla's "everyday riding" and "trip" charge. Everyday limit would be 90%, if you plan to do a longer ride just set it to 100% and embark right after finishing.

I was just about to post this, programmable SOC charge limit would be great, I would personally keep it at 80% for increased battery life
I hope they introduce this and faster charging option.

I like the idea, but on my 2014 SR the SoC is very unreliable.  But I think you could get the effect by stopping charge at a at a particular voltage and only going to 116-117 if you choose the "trip" charge mode.  Indeed, you can get battery overheat by charging to 100% and then riding hard and repeating, right @shadow?

[Shadow]

...you can get battery overheat by charging to 100% and then riding hard and repeating, right @shadow?

Yep am waiting  in Loomis CA for my battery pack temperature to be lower than 49degC so it will accept charging again. 1kW temp goes down. 3kW temp goes down. 4kW temp is constant or goes down. 6kW temp is constant and increasing a little. 9kW temp goes up. 10kW you'll never make it in time if what you did before stopping to charge iis to ride 80mph with the fast lane.

all advice saying to ride 60mph for the last 20 minutes before stopping to charge I ignored and now it will be hours to get a full charge.

[togo]

...you can get battery overheat by charging to 100% and then riding hard and repeating, right @shadow?

Yep am waiting  in Loomis CA for my battery pack temperature to be lower than 49degC so it will accept charging again. 1kW temp goes down. 3kW temp goes down. 4kW temp is constant or goes down. 6kW temp is constant and increasing a little. 9kW temp goes up. 10kW you'll never make it in time if what you did before stopping to charge iis to ride 80mph with the fast lane.

all advice saying to ride 60mph for the last 20 minutes before stopping to charge I ignored and now it will be hours to get a full charge.

Oh interesting, 20 minutes slower at the end helps? Good to know. I'd understood 60mph for the whole ride.

[JaimeC]

I got my letter in the mail today... dated June 16th.

[Shadow]

Oh interesting, 20 minutes slower at the end helps? Good to know. I'd understood 60mph for the whole ride.

Yep the pack actually cools pretty good at 55mph. I don't have any hard data to back up this claim (well, maybe, BMS logs will be worth a look...)  Also the magic number seems to be 120degF the contactor will not engage, at 119degF it can engage to accept charging. I was able to wait until 119degF battery then plug in 3.3kW charger and leave it like that and the pack stayed at a stable temperature on a hot day, and it would slowly decrease temperature at lower ambient temperature.

All of this is by estimation. I am sure it is a topic covered in greater detail already by Ben & Terry.

[mrwilsn]

Oh interesting, 20 minutes slower at the end helps? Good to know. I'd understood 60mph for the whole ride.

Yep the pack actually cools pretty good at 55mph. I don't have any hard data to back up this claim (well, maybe, BMS logs will be worth a look...)  Also the magic number seems to be 120degF the contactor will not engage, at 119degF it can engage to accept charging. I was able to wait until 119degF battery then plug in 3.3kW charger and leave it like that and the pack stayed at a stable temperature on a hot day, and it would slowly decrease temperature at lower ambient temperature.

All of this is by estimation. I am sure it is a topic covered in greater detail already by Ben & Terry.

I agree. I have tested battery cooling after an overheat.

55 mph seems to be a great cruising speed for battery cooling.  It seems to be the perfect balance between low current draw from battery and high air flow.

I can't say for sure if you are not charging and temp is 120-121 deg F if the contactor will close to start charging.  You are probably right, I have always made sure temps were at least in the teens before I get to  charge station so I can't confirm.  But I know that if you are charging and temps rising from below 120 deg F the contactor will open if you exceed 122 deg F (50C).

If I'm charging and see I'm about to hit 50C, if another charger is close by the best tactic I found is to take a cruise at 50-55 mph and battery will cool by the time you get to next charge station.  If that's not an option you may be better to ride circles to get air flow than to let the bike just sit and wait for temps to fall. Or use onboard only for a while to let temps fall then fast charge again. I have 7.9kW config so using just 3.3kW isn't an option unless I were to add a switch.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[ZeroPointZero]

Oh interesting, 20 minutes slower at the end helps? Good to know. I'd understood 60mph for the whole ride.

Yep the pack actually cools pretty good at 55mph. I don't have any hard data to back up this claim (well, maybe, BMS logs will be worth a look...)  Also the magic number seems to be 120degF the contactor will not engage, at 119degF it can engage to accept charging. I was able to wait until 119degF battery then plug in 3.3kW charger and leave it like that and the pack stayed at a stable temperature on a hot day, and it would slowly decrease temperature at lower ambient temperature.

All of this is by estimation. I am sure it is a topic covered in greater detail already by Ben & Terry.

I agree. I have tested battery cooling after an overheat.

55 mph seems to be a great cruising speed for battery cooling.  It seems to be the perfect balance between low current draw from battery and high air flow.

I can't say for sure if you are not charging and temp is 120-121 deg F if the contactor will close to start charging.  You are probably right, I have always made sure temps were at least in the teens before I get to  charge station so I can't confirm.  But I know that if you are charging and temps rising from below 120 deg F the contactor will open if you exceed 122 deg F (50C).

If I'm charging and see I'm about to hit 50C, if another charger is close by the best tactic I found is to take a cruise at 50-55 mph and battery will cool by the time you get to next charge station.  If that's not an option you may be better to ride circles to get air flow than to let the bike just sit and wait for temps to fall. Or use onboard only for a while to let temps fall then fast charge again. I have 7.9kW config so using just 3.3kW isn't an option unless I were to add a switch.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Has anyone explored mounting heat sinks and/or fans to the outside of the battery case to bring the temps down, considering it is air cooled?  Seems like an option so you don't have to ride around to cool the battery off just so you can finish charging.

[clay.leihy]

I have just the opposite problem in winter. Maybe the batteries need some kind of reversible peltier.

Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk

[Shadow]

Has anyone explored mounting heat sinks and/or fans to the outside of the battery case to bring the temps down, considering it is air cooled?  Seems like an option so you don't have to ride around to cool the battery off just so you can finish charging.

The battery case is more insulator than thermal conductor. Repeating something I've heard said: Up to and including 2016 model year ZF monoliths there's a reason for having the case because of the exposed electronic connections, however on 2017+ the process improved a lot and all the internals are waterproof.

This bike design is simplistic and we're definitely pushing past the limitations of its thermal design when not moving and also adding so much energy into the battery system.

[Shadow]

Interesting tidbit of information: The process for Zero Motorcycles to mail a firmware upgrade reminder letter, does rely on the dealership doing their paperwork. I was sent a duplicate letter recently because the dealership service manager just completed a backlog of paperwork. Check with your dealership if you have not received any letter and make sure they have the correct information and are doing their homework

[togo]

I have just the opposite problem in winter. Maybe the batteries need some kind of reversible peltier.

Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk

Peltiers are inherently reversible, aren't they?  What a cool idea.  Especially when dub-J charging, there's excess electricity available (unless you are running a liveforphysics setup with a canttalkaboutspecs battery)

[Doug S]

Peltiers are inherently reversible, aren't they?  What a cool idea.  Especially when dub-J charging, there's excess electricity available (unless you are running a liveforphysics setup with a canttalkaboutspecs battery)

Yes, peltiers are reversible in the sense that if you run current through them one way, heat is pumped from one side to the other, and if you run the current the other way, heat is pumped from the other side to the one. But peltiers are sometimes misunderstood -- there's nothing magic about them. They just move heat around, they don't eliminate or absorb it. And there's a cost associated with doing that -- more heat, not less.

Here's a typical peltier device: https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/cui-inc/CP60240/102-1676-ND/1747368

It's rated for a maximum of 6 amps at 3.8 VDC. That's 22.8 watts. It's also rated to move 13 watts of heat from the cold side to the hot side, assuming you keep the delta temperature low -- at a 68C delta, it can't pump any heat at all. So if you have a big heat sink on the hot side, and probably a blower, you can pull as much as 13 watts of heat out of the cold side, but you'll have to remove that 13 watts plus 22.8 watts of heat from the hot side -- 35.8 watts total -- because the electrical power you're pumping in ADDS to the heat load and must be dissipated as well. So you're supplying 22.8 watts, plus maybe some power to a blower, and cooling things by only 13 watts. True, you can get temperatures down that way, but it's a really expensive way to do it. It's worth it in some circumstances, but for this case, you're probably ahead of the game just running a blower on the battery itself instead.

[CrashCash]

Well, I took my 2015 SR in for the firmware upgrade, and I am absolutely in SHOCK.

I had a pleasant dealership repair experience, for about the third time in 30 years.

I expected all sorts of hassle and grief and pain, so I was dreading it. The dealership has changed hands about 4 times in the past 8 years, and several people told me "don't take your bike there, they'll mess it up!" but obviously I didn't have much choice.

I got there about 9:30am and they didn't give me any static at all. We filled out the service order, I signed it, the other tech got my bike from the parking lot in the mean time, and I went to sit in the showroom. Half an hour, the tech came and told me I was ready to go home. That's it!

Nobody made teeth sucking noises or heavy sighs, or "oh that doesn't REALLY need to be done"[1] or "we need to set up a time with a Zero tech" or "that will be expensive"[1][2] or "we won't work on it unless you bring it in on a trailer, and our trailer fee is $500"[2] or other crap.

I had brought my official letter in case they tried to charge a fee or told me it wasn't needed or anything.

I was actually expecting to make an appointment for the service. I didn't expect them to be able to do it then and there.

It's very strange to have a Zero ride silently up, especially when it's your bike. It really is completely silent... no whine, tire noise or anything.

It's kind of a strange dealership. They sell every off-brand of bike, including Suzuki, Polaris, Victory, Royal Enfield, RZR, Zero, Indian, and Ural. However they don't stock ANY sort of gear or accessories. No helmets, gloves, jackets, rain suits, bike covers, saddlebags, backrests, exhausts, tank bags, Clymers, magazines, tools, oil, etc. No wall of accessories, farkles, toys, knickknacks, etc behind the parts counter. They have the branded Indian jacket/helmet locked in a frame on the wall. Ditto for the branded Zero jacket.

This is Sky Powersports in Longwood, FL, a little north of Orlando.

I've noticed a lot of little differences. The range reading makes a lot more sense now and isn't all over the place. The battery percentage doesn't stay at 100% for a long time. The bike just clicks off when you unplug it, no minute worth of drama and clicks and flashing lights.

[1] My local Yamaha dealer said that when my FJR had an ECU recall. I had to go to another Yamaha dealer to get it done. Took the other dealer about 5 minutes to remove the old ECU and plug in a new one, since I had left that part of the fairing off. No charge.

[2] My local Yamaha dealer said that when my FJR had an ignition switch recall, which did leave me stranded a week later - fortunately only two blocks from home. I had to order the ignition switch recall kit and install it MYSELF. Oh yeah, and this is the Yamaha dealer where I bought my Zero, only to have them then insist I could install my Power Tank myself (which screwed up my bike) then stop being a Zero dealer (but I think Zero told them they weren't a Zero dealer any more)

[togo]

Well, I took my 2015 SR in for the firmware upgrade, and I am absolutely in SHOCK.

I had a pleasant dealership repair experience, for about the third time in 30 years.

I expected all sorts of hassle and grief and pain, so I was dreading it. The dealership has changed hands about 4 times in the past 8 years, and several people told me "don't take your bike there, they'll mess it up!" but obviously I didn't have much choice.

I got there about 9:30am and they didn't give me any static at all. We filled out the service order, I signed it, the other tech got my bike from the parking lot in the mean time, and I went to sit in the showroom. Half an hour, the tech came and told me I was ready to go home. That's it!

Nobody made teeth sucking noises or heavy sighs, or "oh that doesn't REALLY need to be done"[1] or "we need to set up a time with a Zero tech" or "that will be expensive"[1][2] or "we won't work on it unless you bring it in on a trailer, and our trailer fee is $500"[2] or other crap.

I had brought my official letter in case they tried to charge a fee or told me it wasn't needed or anything.

I was actually expecting to make an appointment for the service. I didn't expect them to be able to do it then and there.

It's very strange to have a Zero ride silently up, especially when it's your bike. It really is completely silent... no whine, tire noise or anything.

It's kind of a strange dealership. They sell every off-brand of bike, including Suzuki, Polaris, Victory, Royal Enfield, RZR, Zero, Indian, and Ural. However they don't stock ANY sort of gear or accessories. No helmets, gloves, jackets, rain suits, bike covers, saddlebags, backrests, exhausts, tank bags, Clymers, magazines, tools, oil, etc. No wall of accessories, farkles, toys, knickknacks, etc behind the parts counter. They have the branded Indian jacket/helmet locked in a frame on the wall. Ditto for the branded Zero jacket.

This is Sky Powersports in Longwood, FL, a little north of Orlando.

I've noticed a lot of little differences. The range reading makes a lot more sense now and isn't all over the place. The battery percentage doesn't stay at 100% for a long time. The bike just clicks off when you unplug it, no minute worth of drama and clicks and flashing lights.

[1] My local Yamaha dealer said that when my FJR had an ECU recall. I had to go to another Yamaha dealer to get it done. Took the other dealer about 5 minutes to remove the old ECU and plug in a new one, since I had left that part of the fairing off. No charge.

[2] My local Yamaha dealer said that when my FJR had an ignition switch recall, which did leave me stranded a week later - fortunately only two blocks from home. I had to order the ignition switch recall kit and install it MYSELF. Oh yeah, and this is the Yamaha dealer where I bought my Zero, only to have them then insist I could install my Power Tank myself (which screwed up my bike) then stop being a Zero dealer (but I think Zero told them they weren't a Zero dealer any more)

Thanks for the report! We really do need to start collecting dealer positive and negative experiences somewhere. Kind of like how plugshare does check-ins, calculates a score.