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Author Topic: Zero SR 2017. New model startup issues or just my bike?  (Read 1362 times)

TheGap

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Re: Zero SR 2017. New model startup issues or just my bike?
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2017, 02:27:57 AM »

I got a call from the dealer today, telling me they made quite a lot of progress.

- the belt was lightly misaligned which they adjusted
- because it was a new bike, the belt stretched a little and picked up some slack which in turn increased the noise from the misalignment
- apparently a new firmware has been released, after it has been applied they took it out for a tests and didn't notice any of my reported symptoms anymore.


Since I already have a 1000km on it they're going to do the first maintenance tomorrow and by Saturday I should be able to pick it up.
I said 'should' because to be completely sure a zero technician will still have a look at the bike (remote control of a computer that's attached to the CAN-bus of the bike) to see if everything checks out.

Here's to hoping
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TheGap

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Re: Zero SR 2017. New model startup issues or just my bike?
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2017, 05:23:08 AM »

Picked up my bike from the shop last Saturday and took it out for a spin.

The next day there was a police organised motorcycle training day which was a good test run to see if everything works as it should. And also loads of fun!
Got a lot of attention from a lot of people which is always a nice stroke for the ego  8)
With a few notable exceptions, the first three questions I got asked where always the same ... I presume everyone here knows which ones I'm talking about 
Another one for the thread 'Unexpected advantages of an electric bike' is that due to the lack of my own engine sound is that I could hear all the remarks behind by back: 'Weird ... a bike that doesn't make a sound' or 'What! Where did he come from? .... oh, I see'
I also seem to have been captured on camera a few times ... Where's Wally the Zero SR : https://www.facebook.com/PZBerlareZele/posts/798292416991461   ;D




But best of all: No more problems with the Charging Indicator and no more failed stop-n-go's. Just the entire day fun driving combined with several skill tests/refreshers/practices

Regarding the sounds that were a bit 'off'
- The vibrating sound during hard(er) acceleration seems to be as good as gone
- The modulating sound is still there but only at lower speeds
- I seem to have picked up a new sound: while braking (hard or soft, just louder with when breaking harder) I hear a sound that is best described as 'krrrrrrrrrrrrrrr'

I'll see if I can capture it with as little wind noise as possible and post it here. It might just be that I'm hearing things that are just normal
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TheGap

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Re: Zero SR 2017. New model startup issues or just my bike?
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2017, 06:00:28 PM »

It’s been awhile since my last post in this thread. I should have updated sooner because since then a lot has happened to my bike.

TL;DR version: everything works fine now.




In case this may serve as a diagnostic for other people I’ll expound on my experiences:
There were two major issues
(1) onboard charger wrongly detects an external power connection (read: charging indicator lights up).
(2) strange sounds from my drive train.




(1) onboard charger
A few days after the firmware update which (initially) solved to charging indicator issues, everything went south.

The next Monday (why is it always on Mondays?!?!) after the firmware update I was able to commute to my workplace without much issues but after work when I was about to go home, it took a LOOOOONG time before the charging indicator went out.
Before, the charging indicator wrongly lit up only for a few seconds … this time it took more than half an hour … and my bike hadn’t been plugged in during the entire workday.
When I was finally able to leave, the indicator was more often lit than not.

After about a 2~3 km (1.2~1.8 miles) the onboard charger made its final decision ... too bad it was the wrong one. The charging indicator kept being lit, so at the next crossroads when I needed to make a full stop I was stuck with an expensive brick on wheels. A heavy one because even with the ignition key removed, the controller was still active causing the electric motor to provide resistance while pushing my bike back to the secured parking lot of my work.
Before I started this workout, I tried resetting the BMS, toggling the ignition key, etc. … all to no avail.
On the display the error code 6 , 20 and 47 appeared.

To the credit of my reseller, they picked up my bike free of charge.
After contact with Zero, they decided to completely replace the onboard charger under warranty.
This replacement provided a lasting solution to the issue.

I don’t know if that’s by design or an indication of another underlying issue, but to this day I’m still having the same behaviour as explained in this thread: http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=7553.0



(2) Stranger Sounds
At the end of my previous post I mentioned a strange sound while breaking. Later I figured out this was only during regenerative breaking.

Over the next few weeks this sound slowly became louder and louder … again, only during regenerative breaking. I finally decided to take my bike back to the shop when two pedestrians were visibly startled by this sound when I happened to let go of the throttle when I was right behind them.

At the shop they found the cause and showed it to me … the damage was startling!
I’m sad to say I neglected to take a photo so I’ll try to paint a picture with words here.
The front belt sprocket, has square teeth on the inside which interlocks with the axle of the motor.
Ex: https://catalog.zodiac.nl/ZodiacImage.aspx?image=ZDCE0476&format=Navigatie
These teeth where almost completely gone, leaving behind only a jagged surface and the odd tooth left and right … which were also almost completely worn out.
The square teeth of the axle of the electric motor itself showed similar albeit much, much less damage.
It presume it would have taken only a few more twists on the throttle in Sport Mode to be stuck in the middle of the road without a working drive train.

Zero advised to do a complete replacement of the entire drive train.
Front and back sprocket, belt and even the electric motor since the axle itself is not a replaceable component in the motor.
Fortunately for me, this too, was replaced under warranty.

With this replacement all remaining funny sounds are gone and my bike now makes the same sounds compared to the ones I have on my helmet camera (when I did a few test rides at resellers) and listening to other Zero's on reviews on YouTube.

My reseller told me that Zero had never before seen this kind of damage, they certainly didn't expect this on a new bike with only 3000~4000km (1800~2500 miles) on the odometer. So contrary to normal procedure where they just write off the components, they asked to send the drive train back to them for further investigation.
… Too bad because I would have liked to have built something at home with a 52kW 3-phase generator. For my purposes, the damage there was to the axle was of little consequence anyway.

edited to add: with the replacement of my drivetrain I get about 10~15% more range out of a charge


Conclusion:
These two issues must have been present from the first day I took the bike out of the shop. It took a while for everything to first get recognized by the shop and then get fixed, but I had no more issues since.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 07:16:44 PM by TheGap »
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droidish

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Re: Zero SR 2017. New model startup issues or just my bike?
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2017, 08:39:17 AM »

When I unplug my bike from the mains after my batteries are charged to 100% (this doesn’t happen below 100% SOC) the Charging Indicator remains lit. Even after being unplugged for over 8 hours the indicator is still lit.

Regarding your very first post in this thread. The quote above relates to the only issue I can speak to.

When I charge my 2017 SR to 100% using the onboard charger and 120v outlet, the charge indicator stops blinking and goes solid green. I unplug the bike and the green light stays lit. It will stay lit for 2 or 3 days if I don't ride it. If I do ride it, the green light goes out as soon as the contactor closes.

I contacted Zero about this, and spoke to an engineer who explained that prior to 2017 models, the green charge indicator did go out once the bike was unplugged. For 2017 though, a component was deleted, so the light stays on until voltage in the circuit bleeds off, or the contactor is closed.

I'm curious if the repairs to your bike and component replacements have made your green light behave differently after unplugging.
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Michael

'17 Zero SR
'01 VFR 800FI
'03 DR-Z400
'07 ST3s ABS (for sale!)

TheGap

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Re: Zero SR 2017. New model startup issues or just my bike?
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2017, 01:35:28 PM »

When I charge my 2017 SR to 100% using the onboard charger and 120v outlet, the charge indicator stops blinking and goes solid green. I unplug the bike and the green light stays lit. It will stay lit for 2 or 3 days if I don't ride it. If I do ride it, the green light goes out as soon as the contactor closes.
Your description is a perfect match with my experience.


I contacted Zero about this, and spoke to an engineer who explained that prior to 2017 models, the green charge indicator did go out once the bike was unplugged. For 2017 though, a component was deleted, so the light stays on until voltage in the circuit bleeds off, or the contactor is closed.
AHA!! Thank you!
I never contacted Zero about this, just asked my reseller several times but they either ignored the question or said something to the effect of "Hmm, that's strange. We'll look into it." and never heard from it again.
But now I know! Thanks.

This must also be the answer to the question in this thread 2018 charging display oddities


I'm curious if the repairs to your bike and component replacements have made your green light behave differently after unplugging.
No, this behaviour did not change after the all repairs.

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originalspacerob

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Zero SR 2017. New model startup issues or just my bike?
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2017, 08:04:05 PM »

Very interesting symptoms. I have a 2017 DSR and the only thing I have similar is the belt noise. I have checked tension and that is normal, on the looser end of the scale using the gates tester zero recommends. I do notice the belt is noisier below 40F than when the temps were in the 80s even though the tension is the same. I also noticed that after 3100 miles the belt resonance is slightly louder and so are my tires on the DSR. The DSR tires make more noise than anything.
    I also do not have the issue with the charge indicator staying on. When I charge the bike it blinks and when its fully charged it stays solid as long as the charger is plugged in. Once I disconnect the charger the light goes out in a few seconds and I have no lights on the dash. So in my case the charge light staying on after the charge when the power is disconnected is not normal.
    As far as the other problems have not seen any of those. But thank you for documenting them for those of us incase we do have the same issues. A few good learning experiences for all of us. Make sure we check the drive train if we hear anything funny. Would suck to have the shaft and drive train go out of warranty.  Thanks again for the detail.


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« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 08:08:28 PM by originalspacerob »
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First Electric Motorcycle, 2017 ZERO DSR
2004 R1150GS ADV
1980 GS550
2008 XR650L, CRF front forks and Wilbers Rear Shock
2001 Ural Patrol
2006 TTR230

TheGap

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Re: Zero SR 2017. New model startup issues or just my bike?
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2017, 09:32:13 PM »

I have a 2017 DSR [...] I also do not have the issue with the charge indicator staying on.
It would seem weird if that was the cause of the different behaviour, but the only difference I can see is that you have a DSR and droidish and me have an SR ?!?!

I was assuming this 'component' droidish mentioned was a software component.
A DSR does have some different specs than an SR while many of the relevant hardware components are the same so there must be some software difference ... but an entire function ... sounds scary.
To me, this would look like an issue in the software versioning system Zero uses for their programmers.
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Richard230

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Re: Zero SR 2017. New model startup issues or just my bike?
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2017, 09:38:05 PM »

When I unplug my bike from the mains after my batteries are charged to 100% (this doesn’t happen below 100% SOC) the Charging Indicator remains lit. Even after being unplugged for over 8 hours the indicator is still lit.

Regarding your very first post in this thread. The quote above relates to the only issue I can speak to.

When I charge my 2017 SR to 100% using the onboard charger and 120v outlet, the charge indicator stops blinking and goes solid green. I unplug the bike and the green light stays lit. It will stay lit for 2 or 3 days if I don't ride it. If I do ride it, the green light goes out as soon as the contactor closes.

I contacted Zero about this, and spoke to an engineer who explained that prior to 2017 models, the green charge indicator did go out once the bike was unplugged. For 2017 though, a component was deleted, so the light stays on until voltage in the circuit bleeds off, or the contactor is closed.

I'm curious if the repairs to your bike and component replacements have made your green light behave differently after unplugging.

Since I have the same symptom with my  2018 Zero S, that explanation makes me feel better.  Plus, it sounds about right, since if I disconnect the charger power cord before the system has fully charged and balanced the pack, the display and steady green light will go out.  But if I wait until the charging system has fully completed its task and the power draw is down to 5 watts, and then pull the plug, the dash and charging light will stay on. So that does sound like the light will eventually go out once the voltage is bled down a bit.  But I bet it will take quite a long time before that happens.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 09:40:00 PM by Richard230 »
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Richard's motorcycle collection:  2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

droidish

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Re: Zero SR 2017. New model startup issues or just my bike?
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2017, 10:00:31 PM »

Quote from: TheGap link=topic=6824.msg63685#msg63685 date=15124879[/quote
I was assuming this 'component' droidish mentioned was a software component.

I'm no electrical engineer, and I have a lousy memory to boot, but I think it was a capacitor that was deleted. Definitely hardware though.  Prolly a case where the bean counters found something that was not absolutely essentail, and had it deleted.
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Michael

'17 Zero SR
'01 VFR 800FI
'03 DR-Z400
'07 ST3s ABS (for sale!)

originalspacerob

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Re: Zero SR 2017. New model startup issues or just my bike?
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2017, 12:06:59 AM »

I have a 2017 DSR [...] I also do not have the issue with the charge indicator staying on.
It would seem weird if that was the cause of the different behaviour, but the only difference I can see is that you have a DSR and droidish and me have an SR ?!?!

I was assuming this 'component' droidish mentioned was a software component.
A DSR does have some different specs than an SR while many of the relevant hardware components are the same so there must be some software difference ... but an entire function ... sounds scary.
To me, this would look like an issue in the software versioning system Zero uses for their programmers.

From my understanding the 2017 DSR and SR are pretty much the same with the electronics. Mostly the mechanical parts like wheels, tires, brakes rotors, footpegs.  The biggest specs difference is range is slightly different because of the larger rims and dual sport tires. Which can reduce range.


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First Electric Motorcycle, 2017 ZERO DSR
2004 R1150GS ADV
1980 GS550
2008 XR650L, CRF front forks and Wilbers Rear Shock
2001 Ural Patrol
2006 TTR230

Richard230

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Re: Zero SR 2017. New model startup issues or just my bike?
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2017, 04:37:06 AM »

I have just returned from my dealer after getting the 600-mile servicing.  While there, I asked about the display and charging light staying on after the charging cord is disconnected, the battery pack has been fully charged and all of the battery cells completely balanced.  It should be no surprise that the technician found no odd logs and had never heard of this issue before. So I guess I won't worry about it and just enjoy riding my new Zero.   ;)
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Richard's motorcycle collection:  2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.
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