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[Shadow]

There's a "Report to moderator" link on every post. If you can use that it makes much easier to track the history of actions.

*edit 20170319*  Several of us have used the "Report to moderator" link for postings in this thread. Thank you. Thinking out loud here it seems unfair to lock a whole topic started recently by Delnari because of a few (unrelated) bad actors in the thread. Also I'm getting vague or missing comments why posts are reported that, while not super-helpful, are being reviewed and further commented on. Again, thank you to those who take the time to report posts. Leaving this thread open and if there is cause to modify or delete some posts I would just hope each person can do that themselves and leave the attitudes off the forum.

[Electric Terry]

I’m not looking for any credit or any forum status for my findings, my only motivation is to make riders aware of this potential hazard and to hopefully make them as safe as possible. 

Regards - Mike Mas

Mike you are right about some cheap HobbyKing Turnigy Lipo that can sometimes be dangerous being left plugged in with some really cheap knockoff Chinese chargers.  Something fails, it overcharges and ultimately it catches on fire.  Also your experience with drones uses the lightest batteries in exchange for safety, and carrying the minimum weight of safety devices, or none at all.  Also there is no human on board.  If a drone catches fire it's not good, but not a primary design consideration versus the weight, performance and flight time.

However it's a totally different ball game with electric vehicles including Zero.  There are multiple layers of safety unlike what your drones have.  There is ABSOLUTELY NO safety risk leaving a Zero plugged in ever! Period!   The issue was about long term observation and data that the packs longevity might be increased if not left at a full state of charge when not in use for a long time.  But I can understand Low on Cash's confusion and his desire to draw a comparison to things he believes are apples and apples, where they are not anywhere close.  I always have to pick on Mike that he is a Trump supporter and will believe anything, and is also highly immune and resistant to facts if it doesn't support what he already believes.  So I probably won't be able to get Mike to see the light, I worry he is a lost cause, but I hope to help others who's star shines a little bit brighter than Mikes does.

Since Zero's previous recommendations were to leave the bike plugged in at all times, all they are doing is saying this isn't REQUIRED any more on 2013 and up bikes as long as you are over 30%

If you ride 6-8 miles a day for instance, you don't have to plug in every night if you don't want to.  You could plug in once a week or plug in every night if you want to, its totally up to you now.  All Zero recommends is not to leave it under 30% SOC after a ride, charge to at least 60% if it won't be ridden for a long period (over winter or a long vacation overseas for example).

But Zero isn't saying you can't or shouldn't leave it plugged in because of some safety issue Low on Cash, that's not it and you are completely incorrect to suggest that Mike, and I worry others new to the forum might think this is part of it and it's not.  The Zero cell chemistry is very stable to 4.15v and the redundancy of overcharge protection prevents any possibility of an issue.

Again the purpose is 2 fold:

1) to make owning a Zero easier for the rider.  If you get home and the bike is at 75% and you can plug in, great! If you get home and for some reason don't want to, that's fine too.  You have more freedom now and will not void your warranty for leaving the bike unplugged as long as it remains above 30%, that is the main clarification.

2) we now have a good decade of battery pack longevity and it is noticed that there might be some benefit to not leaving a pack sitting at 100% state of charge to even further extend the pack health past the designed lifespan.  Nothing to worry about if you feel more comfortable plugging it in each night, that is totally fine.

It has been known there are 3 main things that can accelerate battery degradation: heat, and time at high state of charge.

Keeping the bike stored in the shade if possible is always a good idea, and if you care to charge to 80-90% before you go to bed, and then plug in first thing in the morning, this would be ideal, but not practical for most.  Would love to see an app one day that did this for you and you just programmed in the time you need to leave for work and it topped the bike off 15-20 minutes before you were ready to go.

It's just something small that could perhaps extend battery life a small amount, but not worth changing your habits.  I study batteries and battery degradation and I don't do this myself most of the time, so I don't expect anyone out there to do this, just sharing my ideal scenario for the purpose of sharing knowledge and clearing up misinformation spread by others - Talking to you Low on Cash!

Bottom line, no need to change anything you do, but if you can't plug in one night and you are over 30%, don't stress about it one bit.

- Electric Terry

[Richard230]

I wonder if the recommendation for the 2012 models remains to keep them continuously plugged in - as my daughter has been doing on her 2012 ZF9 S for the past 3 years and I did for the previous 2 years?  It caught my attention when I read that Zero's new recommendations only applied to the 2013 and later models.   

[MichaelJohn]

Snipped from Electric Terry:

Since Zero's previous recommendations were to leave the bike plugged in at all times, all they are doing is saying this isn't REQUIRED any more on 2013 and up bikes as long as you are over 30%


Snipped from Aaron:

"Charging Recommendations for 2013 and newer Zero Motorcycles (All Models)

Regular Use
After each use, you should plug your motorcycle into an AC power source to recharge.  Once it is charged, you should disconnect it from the AC power source. Leaving your motorcycle off the charger will maximize long-term power pack health.


Even though it's not required to unplug the bike, Aaron is saying that we should unplug the bike rather than leave it plugged in. I had to have my BMS replaced just before the two-year warranty ran out - I had kept it plugged in all the time and I wonder now if that's what cooked my BMS. I am now unplugging after bringing it to a full charge.

[Kocho]

May or may not be related, but there is a chance it is. I remember not too long ago my phone chargers would fail after a couple of years of use. Poor parts and workmanship. That seems to have been fixed nowadays - I have not had a phone charger fail recently.

Electronic components have a limited life, some shorter than others, when under power. I wouldn't be surprised if some lowly capacitor or pathway in a microchip fails prematurely when the bike is  left plugged in all the time. Or you were unlucky and an electric spike damaged yours.

Batteries I read don't like to be trickle-charged/discharged/kept near full SoC, so that's another plus of the latest guidance.

We should also remember that it is better to charge often and discharge less than to charge less frequently and discharge near empty. That I think was in Zero's guidance but I'm not sure. Basically, even if you can ride 10 times for 10 miles each on one charge, it is better to charge at least a couple of times if not every time during that span. Ideally, one would keep the SoC somewhere between 50-70%, never discharging too low and never charging near full, but that's to much hassle for most people and the type of BMS in the Zero I'm pretty sure needs the SoC to be near 100% to equalize...

I had to have my BMS replaced just before the two-year warranty ran out - I had kept it plugged in all the time and I wonder now if that's what cooked my BMS. I am now unplugging after bringing it to a full charge.

[clay.leihy]

"Ideally, one would keep the SoC somewhere between 50-70%, never discharging too low and never charging near full"

What is the actual SoC when the bike indicates 100%?

I've used a lot of small Ni-Cads and NiMhs back in the day and they liked to cycle - discharge, trickle to full, repeat. I have instructions with some Li-Ions, phones, etc, that recommend short top-ups whenever you have a few minutes rather than a full discharge-recharge cycle. Of course that doesn't work for me cause I use the phone all day and plug it in at night, same as my Zero. Guess we'll have to learn new habits.

Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk

[Kocho]

100% SoC indicated is lower than 100% of the max possible per the cells spec., something like 4.15V as opposed to 4.20V or whatever the "fully charged" spec for the cells is.

[clay.leihy]

100% SoC indicated is lower 100% of the max possible per the cells spec., something like 4.15V as opposed to 4.20V or whatever the "fully charged" spec for the cells is.

So, safe but not ideal? 99% or thereabouts? I'm thinking maybe there's a market for an app to assist (train) EV owners to best manage charging.

Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk

[Electric Terry]

Snipped from Electric Terry:

Since Zero's previous recommendations were to leave the bike plugged in at all times, all they are doing is saying this isn't REQUIRED any more on 2013 and up bikes as long as you are over 30%


Snipped from Aaron:

"Charging Recommendations for 2013 and newer Zero Motorcycles (All Models)

Regular Use
After each use, you should plug your motorcycle into an AC power source to recharge.  Once it is charged, you should disconnect it from the AC power source. Leaving your motorcycle off the charger will maximize long-term power pack health.


Even though it's not required to unplug the bike, Aaron is saying that we should unplug the bike rather than leave it plugged in. I had to have my BMS replaced just before the two-year warranty ran out - I had kept it plugged in all the time and I wonder now if that's what cooked my BMS. I am now unplugging after bringing it to a full charge.

I believe the wording Aaron uses will be the official recommendation in the next owners manual.  And the ultimate goal is to extend the pack life to be useful well past 5 years.  And there are many ways to do that and each person might prefer one way over another.

For example if you drain your pack to 40% each day.  The onboard charger refills about 10% per hour if you have a powertank, a little more if you don't.  But for this example you would plug the bike in right before you go to bed and when you wake up in the morning, it just finished charging right before you need it.  This minimizes time spent at high SOC and would be the ultimate pack life extender. 

I think the wording of unplugging after it reaches 100% probably is more directed at those who aren't daily riders.  Meaning if the bike will be sitting for more than a few days or weeks to unplug it and let the voltage self discharge from about 116.4 volts down to about 113.5 to 114 and not to keep topping it off. 

Anyway whatever it is when Zero makes an official announcement, just follow their directions and if you want to do more or less that is up to you.

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

Thanks so much, Terry. It helps when you weigh in, having worked Zero's batteries pretty extensively.

I've tried to condense all the lessons here into the Storage article on the wiki:
http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Usage#Storage

I tried to distill it and keep it organized so it's as clear as possible, which means I tried to leave some things out if they seemed a little hard to interpret (of course this can be fixed). I'm hoping at first glance, most readers get the right idea and know what they should do for their situation and aren't bothered by the options presented.

[Doug S]

Zero is in the process of changing our charging and storage recommendations for 2013 and newer motorcycles, but it has nothing to do with power pack overheating, lawyers, or any of the other issues discussed above.  We’ve learned much from several years of experience with our current cells and from data provided by the manufacturer. We are applying these learnings in a number of areas.  One key change is that we are no longer requiring that you always keep the motorcycle plugged in. In fact, we have found that our 2013 and newer motorcycles should have even longer and healthier lives if the motorcycle is left unplugged when charging isn’t need.

I guess I don't understand why people are having trouble with Aaron's statement. He says NOTHING about the BMS or any of the electronics, NOTHING about anybody's perceived risk of fire, the one and only consideration is lifetime of the cells. Sounds like long-term data from the lab and the field indicates the batteries might be SLIGHTLY better off if they're not continuously trickle-charged once they reach 100%.

I'm with Terry....if I was going to store my bike for anything longer than a couple of days, I'd unplug it. But since I ride essentially every day (god bless San Diego weather!), I'm not going to change my habits. I'll ride during the day and recharge it overnight. I'm not going to be rushing out to unplug it at 2 in the morning because it should be done charging.

[MajorMajor]

Something I don't understand, I thought that cell balancing was only done at 100% SoC and can even take 72 hours to complete.
How does that work with the new charging recommendations of disconnecting when you reach 100%?

[Electric Terry]

Something I don't understand, I thought that cell balancing was only done at 100% SoC and can even take 72 hours to complete.
How does that work with the new charging recommendations of disconnecting when you reach 100%?

Check your cell balance from the app once it reaches 100%.  I think you'll see that most packs are within a few millivolts already, and cell balancing isn't even done each charge cycle more than a couple minutes.

On my 2012 Vetter Zero all the extra batteries did not have a BMS attached to them.  After 40,000 miles I checked the balance and the furthest cells were 45 millivolts out of balance at the top.  Now even Luke said I as very lucky these cells were so well matched from birth as far as cell impedance, but the current generation Farasis cells should have as good a chance or more of being matched too.

Basically as soon as you are within 2 mV of balance, it doesn't get any better and you can unplug the bike.  Although being 10 mV isn't the end of the world either.  The millivolt of balance will grow as you discharge the pack and that's ok.  The cells are top balanced not bottom balanced.  You could see anywhere from 50 mV to 200 mV of balance in the final few miles if you ever run the pack to empty and that's perfectly normal.  When you charge it will go back to 2 mV again.

So let me just say that having a perfectly top balanced pack is good, it being a few mV out of balance for a few days or even weeks won't be anything to stress about.  Plug it in overnight and it will be balanced again.  The balance resistors are very small on the BMS and so it does take some time to burn the high cells down if they are far off, but keep an eye on it with the app and you'll learn how it works on your bike.

[Richard230]

My 2014S, when it is charging, seems to take time off from bulk charging to go to cell balancing at around 90%, then it continues to charge to 98% at which time it balances again and shuts down at 98%.  Then 30 hours later it wakes up, completes charging to 100% and also performs a balancing routine before finally shutting down, at which time I pull the plug. 

I assume that the system is balancing when the slow flashing green light starts flashing quicker.  When I have the Kill-A-Watt meter attached I see the power consumption drop from 12 amps to around 6 amps when the green charging light increases its rate of blinking. All very interesting if you like to watch a green light flashing and KAW meters running. All I care about is that my app still shows a battery capacity of 13.34 kWh when fully charged, my individual cell packs are within 2 mW when balanced, and the bike still runs like new. 

[Low On Cash]

Mike you are right about some cheap HobbyKing Turnigy Lipo that can sometimes be dangerous being left plugged in with some really cheap knockoff Chinese chargers.  Something fails, it overcharges and ultimately it catches on fire.  Also your experience with drones uses the lightest batteries in exchange for safety, and carrying the minimum weight of safety devices, or none at all.  Also there is no human on board.  If a drone catches fire it's not good, but not a primary design consideration versus the weight, performance and flight time.

However it's a totally different ball game with electric vehicles including Zero.  There are multiple layers of safety unlike what your drones have.  There is ABSOLUTELY NO safety risk leaving a Zero plugged in ever! Period!   The issue was about long term observation and data that the packs longevity might be increased if not left at a full state of charge when not in use for a long time.  But I can understand Low on Cash's confusion and his desire to draw a comparison to things he believes are apples and apples, where they are not anywhere close.  I always have to pick on Mike that he is a Trump supporter and will believe anything, and is also highly immune and resistant to facts if it doesn't support what he already believes.  So I probably won't be able to get Mike to see the light, I worry he is a lost cause, but I hope to help others who's star shines a little bit brighter than Mikes does.

Since Zero's previous recommendations were to leave the bike plugged in at all times, all they are doing is saying this isn't REQUIRED any more on 2013 and up bikes as long as you are over 30%

If you ride 6-8 miles a day for instance, you don't have to plug in every night if you don't want to.  You could plug in once a week or plug in every night if you want to, its totally up to you now.  All Zero recommends is not to leave it under 30% SOC after a ride, charge to at least 60% if it won't be ridden for a long period (over winter or a long vacation overseas for example).

But Zero isn't saying you can't or shouldn't leave it plugged in because of some safety issue Low on Cash, that's not it and you are completely incorrect to suggest that Mike, and I worry others new to the forum might think this is part of it and it's not.  The Zero cell chemistry is very stable to 4.15v and the redundancy of overcharge protection prevents any possibility of an issue.

Again the purpose is 2 fold:

1) to make owning a Zero easier for the rider.  If you get home and the bike is at 75% and you can plug in, great! If you get home and for some reason don't want to, that's fine too.  You have more freedom now and will not void your warranty for leaving the bike unplugged as long as it remains above 30%, that is the main clarification.

2) we now have a good decade of battery pack longevity and it is noticed that there might be some benefit to not leaving a pack sitting at 100% state of charge to even further extend the pack health past the designed lifespan.  Nothing to worry about if you feel more comfortable plugging it in each night, that is totally fine.

It has been known there are 3 main things that can accelerate battery degradation: heat, and time at high state of charge.

Keeping the bike stored in the shade if possible is always a good idea, and if you care to charge to 80-90% before you go to bed, and then plug in first thing in the morning, this would be ideal, but not practical for most.  Would love to see an app one day that did this for you and you just programmed in the time you need to leave for work and it topped the bike off 15-20 minutes before you were ready to go.

It's just something small that could perhaps extend battery life a small amount, but not worth changing your habits.  I study batteries and battery degradation and I don't do this myself most of the time, so I don't expect anyone out there to do this, just sharing my ideal scenario for the purpose of sharing knowledge and clearing up misinformation spread by others - Talking to you Low on Cash!

Bottom line, no need to change anything you do, but if you can't plug in one night and you are over 30%, don't stress about it one bit.

- Electric Terry

Terry thanks for your detailed reply however its important that you note that regardless of who makes or the cost of the lithium cells (China, Japan, US, Tesla, etc.) when any of these cells are over-charged it will result in a fire.

Your comments on processor protocol are only valid if the main processor and its associated systems, i.e. BMS etc. are operating properly. We all know of countless past and present failures already on record.  I suggest you re-read my now locked original post:
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6583.0  where I carefully explain in the event of a processor freeze or BMS freeze or a simple nearby lighting strike which makes that system freeze in a charge condition, it will raise the cells levels above their designed threshold and it will result in a fire. Without being redundant, there is no reason at all to leave a bike plugged in and un-attended for weeks and months at a time since it is not in the best health of the batteries and poses a fire risk.

We all know just how bad a hover board lithium fire is . . .  well you can multiply that times a hundred, a 13kw lithium pack is essentially a bomb.  My findings which were only made with regard to safety of others were validated by both Zero's recent change in charging policy and further confirmed by Farasis.

Regards - Mike