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Author Topic: Precision bearings & replacement  (Read 4162 times)

rayivers

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Precision bearings & replacement
« on: March 08, 2017, 08:23:06 PM »

I got in an actual ride yesterday (snow & bike upgrades have pretty much shut me down this winter) and everything worked OK, so I'll start posting about the recent round of mods / repairs.  Some good news on the bearing front... I finally found a source I trust for quality precision bearings -  Ortech:



These are double-sealed (2RS) hybrid stainless/ceramic ABEC-rated precision bearings, handmade in the USA (6904  '13?-'14 wheel bearing on the left, 6204  '15-'17 wheel / '13?-'17 swingarm bearing on the right).  You can pick and choose options at the Ortech site to design your own bearing. I chose full-complement type (max # of  balls, no cage) as I wanted the highest load-carrying capacity; this explains the ball-loading notches in the races.  These 6904's are ABEC 5 (medium precision) and the 6204's are ABEC 7 (medium-high precision, for less swingarm play).  The notches made seal removal easy, so I repacked them with my go-to grease for lo-temp wet conditions (Bel-Ray); I use Silkolene Pro RG2 for everything else.

Wheel bearing replacement ('14 FX, 6904 bearings);  Removal was pretty straightforward, as I have a Motion Pro blind bearing removal kit.  Pullers like these are the only way I know of to remove wheel bearings without risk of damage to the hub or center spacer;  they pull against the small chamfer on the inner-race I.D.   Years ago I used to bring my wheels into my ICE dealer for bearing work, but after one wheel came back with a 2mm gap to the center spacer and another was nearly destroyed by a "service  manager" with a giant screwdriver & sledge, I decided it was less stressful & cheaper in the long run to get the proper tools and do it myself.  The OEM wheel bearings removed were rusty and notchy, but they appeared undamaged and still had a nearly-full grease pack.

Installing the new wheel bearings wasn't as easy (front wheel was OK, rear not so much).  All my '14 hubs had issues with brake rotor & sprocket flange alignment - which I finally fixed last month, and will address in another thread at some point - but I didn't realize the bearing pockets were bad too (my '16 FX wheels are much better on all these counts).  Precision bearings are not forgiving of alignment problems, and it wasn't until I'd driven the inner LH rear wheel bearing fully into the (tilted-bottom) pocket and then installed the outer bearing on top of it that I knew something wasn't right. Despite carefully driving the outer LH bearing in (with a large socket - I'm working on a press) until it just made contact with the inner one's center race - and then having both bearings turn as one without binding - once the axle was in & tight, both LH bearings bound up.  As always, I made sure to drive the RH bearing in until it contacted the center spacer without binding.  I was able to free things up on the LH side by using the bearing puller and tapping the center races a bit, but I really wasn't happy doing that (and never needed to before).  If I'd left it as it was, the inner LH bearing would've destroyed itself within a few thousand miles, possibly locking up and ruining the pocket as well.  I installed all bearings with unslotted sides out, for best axial strength & dirt rejection.

Swingarm bearing replacement
('14 FX, 6204 bearings): I needed a large breaker bar to remove the M20 'stub axle' swingarm pivots (impact gun couldn't budge them). Both bearings were totally roached (dry, rusty, notchy as hell; I was barely able to rotate them, and bearing corrosion had etched the frame pockets).  I believe both bearings had their inner races pulled outward against the SA by stub-axle torque, opening a gap to the bearing seal and letting water in & grease out, eventually destroying the bearings.  Once both pivots were out, there was a visible gap from the SA pivot extensions to the bearing races, and an orange wash of rust all round.

After hammering out the OEM bearings with a small sledge & socket (I won't be doing that again), I wanted to find a way to install them perfectly straight to the proper depth without stressing the frame side rails or moving the motor.  I came up with the bearing press below, which closely 'cups' the bearing and presses it straight into the frame pocket, pulling against the frame around the bearing-seal holes; when the cup bottoms against the inner frame rail, it's removed & reversed to press the bearing the rest of the way in.  It works extremely well, & I'm currently working up an extension & collar to allow it to do bearing removal too.  I pressed the LH bearing fully into its frame pocket, then pressed the RH one in incrementally until I was just barely able to get the swingarm in between them (both SA extensions were in intimate contact with the inner races, but exerting barely any pressure on them).  No way I was going to leave any gap, like the OEM install.  The stub-axle pivots had a few drops of blue Loc-Tite applied & were torqued to 50 ft/lb.

Here's the bearing press, with a 6204 bearing in the 'cup' (RH side).  The 51204 thrust bearing and M20 x 1.5 fine-thread bolt let it turn easily & precisely even under heavy loading, and the white PTFE (Teflon) ring gasket protects the frame's powder coat:



Diagrams:





I realize few Zero owners would be interested in this, but a dealer might - especially one doing a large volume of Zero service (bearing replacement is surely commonplace, and motor-bolt removal is a pain).  I'm working one up for the wheel bearings too, using the axle as a puller.  It's a whole lot better to press bearings in rather than hammer them, especially ceramic types.

As with any of my posts, if anyone wants to add some or all of this to the wiki manual, please feel free.

Ray
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 09:09:11 PM by rayivers »
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odedmaz

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Re: Precision bearings & replacement
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2017, 12:13:59 AM »

Ray, thanks for the valuable information.
I had plenty of bearings issues with my 2014 fx rear wheel.
I'm going to save this post, it's too important to pass.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

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rayivers

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Re: Precision bearings & replacement
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2017, 01:22:12 AM »

Thanks, Oded - glad to help.  I searched all over the Web for an M20x47 bearing press, but all I could find were pullers and hammer-type seal/bearing drivers (basically steel cylinders).  Great idea to make a correct-length spacer !  I think my rear one is about .25mm/.010" too long, which I wish I knew beforehand.  I hate installing bearings. :(

Ray
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Doug S

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Re: Precision bearings & replacement
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2017, 02:59:25 AM »

Terrific research, Ray. I've been using ceramic wheel bearings on my 2014 SR for 6,000 miles now (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5612.0), but I just purchased what seemed like a good bearing to me, I didn't dive near as deep as you did. Please let us know how it works out for you!

BTW, I haven't had a single problem with my ceramics yet...couldn't be happier. But even the stock bearings gave me 24,000 miles, so it's much too early to draw any conclusions except they didn't suffer from infant mortality.
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rayivers

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Re: Precision bearings & replacement
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2017, 03:49:12 AM »

Thanks, Doug!  My initial impression is that they're quality units and survived my could've-been-better install OK, so hopefully they'll roll tight & true for some time to come.  I'll definitely report back once I've got a few miles on 'em.

Ray
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MostlyBonkers

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Re: Precision bearings & replacement
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2017, 04:49:28 AM »

Thanks for your post Ray. Excellent timing for me considering the problems I've had with bearings on my 2014 DS. Much appreciated!
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rayivers

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Re: Precision bearings & replacement
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2017, 06:22:25 AM »

No problem at all, MB - it was actually your bearing thread that made me realize that now would be a good time for mine.  I think you're lucky your bearing didn't lock up at the wrong moment and put you in a world of hurt.

One of the other things I've been working on is fitting '15-'17 big-bearing wheels to earlier Zeros.  It's not that difficult on the '14 FX  - the front brake caliper would need @ .020"/.5mm removed over a small non-critical area for rotor clearance, otherwise it's just a matter of axle spacers - and the other bikes might be similar. The '15-'17 DS/S/SR all share triple clamps, swingarms, ABS sensors, axles, etc., so it would mainly be a matter of determining brake caliper/rotor spacing for the earlier & later cast wheels. If Zero agrees to give you a later wheel, the DS situation may be nearly identical to the FX; basically, the main issue at both ends is the lack of ABS sensors on the '14's, which requires the use of correct-width substitution spacer(s).

Ray
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BrianTRice@gmail.com

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Re: Precision bearings & replacement
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2017, 02:13:26 PM »

This is very helpful, thanks!
« Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 01:45:08 AM by BrianTRice »
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rayivers

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Re: Precision bearings & replacement
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2017, 11:38:32 PM »

UPDATE: The rear wheel bearings on my 'MX' bike have developed a small amount of rocking play (fronts are still fine).  I don't know the bearing mileage offhand, but it's way less than 1,000.   I expected the inner LH bearing to die early due to being driven against a crooked seating surface, but I didn't think that would manifest itself for a very long time; I guess rear-wheel impact stress during dirt use is just more than these small bearings can withstand long-term.  Now that my '16 wheels are ready that will be my fix, but for 6904-bearing wheel owners I think replacing bearings regularly with quality double-sealed bearings (if you can find them) is probably the most realistic real-world solution.

Ray
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MostlyBonkers

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Re: Precision bearings & replacement
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2017, 01:47:41 AM »

That's great Ray, thanks again!
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rayivers

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Re: Precision bearings & replacement
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2017, 07:32:49 PM »

10/12/17: The rear wheel rocking play became excessive, so I replaced all three Ortech bearings with generic eBay stainless 6904-2RS bearings.  The Ortechs had @ 780 miles on them.

I think the problem was that both LH bearings were slightly crooked relative to the axle, resulting in greatly accelerated wear.  I initially thought this was caused by a poorly-machined hub bearing pocket, but upon removal of the inner bearing I saw a 'wave curl' of aluminum had been scraped up by the bearing edge during insertion and packed itself into the pocket corner on one side, making full / flat insertion impossible.  Since the bearing started out crooked this also happened on the opposite side of the bearing during removal, creating a ridge in the pocket wall; I had to drive the inner bearing straight back in nearly all the way, remove the ridge, then carefully drive it back out straight from the other side of the wheel using anti-seize on the pocket walls (the hub aluminum appears to be quite soft - I could easily dent it with a screwdriver tip). The RH bearing was seated properly and seemed fine.  Considering the soft hub material and narrow cross-section, these bearings really should be pressed in with a 36.90mm O.D. collar or similar.  I cooled all the new bearings to -10F before installation.

The front wheel's Ortech bearings seem okay - a tiny amount of bearing rumble can be heard in the spokes, but there's no play or problems while riding.  I took it out yesterday, and the rear end felt more 'planted' and predictable than it had before.

Ray
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 10:16:52 PM by rayivers »
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odedmaz

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Re: Precision bearings & replacement
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2017, 08:11:16 PM »

Hi Ray,
Are you sure it is not the aluminium spacer being slightly distorted causing premature bearing fail?
I had to replace rear wheel bearings 3 times in 2 months, before realizing it is the spacer.
Machined a new spacer, and ever since no more bearing problem.



Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

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rayivers

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Re: Precision bearings & replacement
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2017, 10:32:30 PM »

Hi Oded,

I'd read your comments in another thread regarding the center bearing spacer, so I examined mine carefully - it had gray stain rings on both ends where it contacted the center bearing races, but both ends were flat & true w/no grooving or deformation.  It's a bit too long as I mentioned earlier, so I drove in the RH bearing only until the center race just contacted the spacer, like the OEM install (which lasted > 3,500 miles). Hopefully these new ones will last a while, but we'll see.

Ray
« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 09:14:59 PM by rayivers »
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nnelson65

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Re: Precision bearings & replacement
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2019, 01:21:46 AM »

Bringing this thread back from the dead.  Does anyone know if the factory bearings for the newer S/DS wheels have a standard internal clearance spec (C0)?  I'm planning a preventative maintenance replacement of the wheel bearings in the next few weeks, and the C3 spec bearings are much easier to find than the C0 bearings (and cheaper).
 
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ESokoloff

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Re: Precision bearings & replacement
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2019, 02:51:03 AM »

Bringing this thread back from the dead.  Does anyone know if the factory bearings for the newer S/DS wheels have a standard internal clearance spec (C0)?  I'm planning a preventative maintenance replacement of the wheel bearings in the next few weeks, and the C3 spec bearings are much easier to find than the C0 bearings (and cheaper).


I've noticed a rough/rumble on my 16 DSR with 40+k miles on the clock so I'm researching bearing replacements.

Re C rating....
I've found that McMaster Carr offers 4 possible suitable 6204-2RS bearings.

https://www.mcmaster.com/6204-ball-bearings

All but the Stainless Steel  are C3 including Precision.
The SS is C0 & its max RPM is 15k which is 1.5x the Precision (the other offerings are even less).


I'm gathering that higher RPM's require a lower C# (Clearance) & likely not a requirement for this application. 

McMaster Carr doesn't offer a RS version but it's easy to convert a 2RS bearing into a RS.....
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Eric
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