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When will Zero (re)add faster charging option to allow longer trips (~1C)?

MY 2018
- 8 (29.6%)
MY 2019
- 4 (14.8%)
MY 2020
- 11 (40.7%)
MY 2021
- 1 (3.7%)
MY 2022
- 3 (11.1%)

Total Members Voted: 27


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Author Topic: When will Zero (re)add faster charging option to allow longer trips (~1C)?  (Read 5183 times)

Erasmo

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Seems pretty unpractical to me as an European to keep on using those J-plugs... Where 6kW is 0.5C for most Zero's out there, for electric cars it's a puny charge. Imagine having to fill up you'r 60kW battery from those points...
Why would you use J-plugs in Europe? Mennekes is the standard here and it has so much more power than a J-plug because it is 3-phase.
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MrDude_1

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Seems pretty unpractical to me as an European to keep on using those J-plugs... Where 6kW is 0.5C for most Zero's out there, for electric cars it's a puny charge. Imagine having to fill up you'r 60kW battery from those points...


6kw is common, because of the current electrical layout in the US.. its easy and cheap to install.

but its not the limit of the J plug.
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MostlyBonkers

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Here in the UK I think we're limited to 6.6kW charging due to the types of charging stations we have. Some of them do have dual Mennekes sockets but you'd need a separate card (and therefore a second subscription) to use them. I get the impression that using two J plugs is a lot easier in the States.  I'm disappointed by the rate of progress our charging infrastructure is making. Our government is rubbish.

I didn't know Mennekes was capable of 3 phase charging until reading this thread as I've only ever come across 7kW posts. I should have realised though, because I think some electric cars only have an A.C. fast charging solution, but go up to 21kW. 

I've also heard of 43kW A.C. fast charging. Is this also via a Mennekes plug?

I think we're still in the first generation days as far as Zero and their electrical systems go. I take Terry's excellent points around the availability of rapid chargers and how it will be a long time before D.C. charging becomes viable.

I hope that Zero can build a foundation for massive growth over the next year. Get the European distribution centre up and running properly, put some proper systems in place for customer service, keep improving on reliability, keep reducing the sticker price and so on. As sales improve and mark my words, they will, Zero can start developing the following:

High voltage battery pack and much more powerful motor. Torque is fine, but it would be nice to have litre bike performance.

Aerodynamics for a touring model. If Erasmo can do it, Zero should be able to.

A new BMS with rapid D.C. charging built in.

Active cooling for the battery pack. 2-3C won't be possible without it, I would think, especially with the cell density required on a motorcycle.

If there's one thing I've learnt after following Zero for the last four years, it's that they are very good at understanding what is practical to develop with their existing resources. All of the above is difficult. It is easy to think otherwise because car manufacturers have already done it. In fact they incorporated it all into their first generation products.  Zero couldn't because they only have a tiny fraction of the development money a car manufacturer has.

I know I'm trotting out stuff that many of you already know, but I hope it helps some newer members.

As much as I appreciate and respect all the great developments in the fast A.C. charging space over the last year or so, I do believe charging times have to get down to 20 minutes before mass market adoption occurs.  Tesla knew this from the start. Zero probably know it too, but must address other priorities first. Price and reliability being right at the top of the list.  Followed very closely by customer service.

An outsider wouldn't understand why people would have to waste valuable space carrying around charging equipment. They won't understand why it costs so much money and why it still takes at least an hour to charge.

I would love to hear from Justin if he's got time to read and post to this thread. His 2015 SR with powertank must be ripe for a 6.6kW fast charger setup.  With around 120 miles of range, he shouldn't have to stop until lunchtime. A nice long lunch should be enough to charge for the rest of the day. If taking it steady.  I can quite easily enjoy a couple of hours of motorcycling with my range of 65 miles. I don't really understand people wanting to ride 400 miles a day on their bikes. I've had enough after 300 miles. 250 is plenty unless a lot of it is spent on motorways and dual carriageways.

As a commuter with little time for riding at weekends (kids), I do find it difficult to justify the cost of even the cheapest units, like the Elcon.
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remmie

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The mennekes type 2 plug can handle as much as 43 kW. This is achieved by delivering 63 Amps 3 phase 230V.

Overview of available power :
1 phase 230V 16A : 3.7 kW
1 phase 230V 32A : 7.2 kW (haven't seen one of these yet but should be possibe)
3 phase 3x230V 16A : 11 kW
3 phase 3x230V 32A : 22 kW
3 phase 3x230V 63A : 43 kW
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Current : Red Premium Zero SR/F (ordered May 25, delivered August 23 2019) with Rapid charger for 12kW charging
Former : White Zero SR 2018 ZF14.4 kWh (17.500 km)
Former : Black Zero SR 2014 ZF11.4 kWh (25.000 km)
SR's outfitted with Homemade "Supercharger" 6x eltek Flatpack S (12 kW)

Erasmo

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Here in the UK I think we're limited to 6.6kW charging due to the types of charging stations we have. Some of them do have dual Mennekes sockets but you'd need a separate card (and therefore a second subscription) to use them. I get the impression that using two J plugs is a lot easier in the States.  I'm disappointed by the rate of progress our charging infrastructure is making. Our government is rubbish.

I didn't know Mennekes was capable of 3 phase charging until reading this thread as I've only ever come across 7kW posts. I should have realised though, because I think some electric cars only have an A.C. fast charging solution, but go up to 21kW. 
The Zoe goes up to 43kW.

Are you sure about that? Most (semi)public chargers that I see in the UK are at least 11kW. Normally only the less accessible places are fitted just single phase, or sometimes small businesses where the people that work there have 8  hours to charge anyway so those are more home-style chargers.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2017, 04:30:46 PM by Erasmo »
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MostlyBonkers

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It's just my exposure Erasmo. Probably because my car uses CHAdeMO and A.C. up to  7kW.  Some of charging posts are as low as 3kW and still have a Mennekes socket.
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Erasmo

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Do you happen to own a Leaf?

It doesn't matter how powerful the charging station is, if your car is equipped with a charger that only uses one phase you have two phases contributing nothing.
And yes, some single phase stations are power wise nothing more than glorified wall outlets but you still can use them with the same plug and make use of the back-end that comes with it. This is mostly done at home installations where more power demands additional (costly) changes to the home installation or in a parking lot that only had cables laid for a few street lights.
At home it shouldn't matter that much because normally those vehicles have all night to charge, and for the few public chargers that only provide that much, it is better than nothing and even there you should be able to do a quick topup to get to a near station that has more power if you're in a pinch.
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MostlyBonkers

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Thanks Erasmo. 

It's a Kia Soul EV.

I think the only high power A.C. chargers I've come across are at service stations and attached to the same unit that provides CHAdeMO or CCS. Even then I'm not sure because a BMW i3 owner had to plug into the Mennekes cable one day and only got 5 kWh in half an hour. It must have been an 11kW unit.

I get the impression that the continent is much better serviced by high power A.C.

CCS coverage isn't as good either. If a service station has two rapid chargers, invariably only one of them supports CCS. CHAdeMO is always supported on rapids in the UK. I wouldn't want to have a car that uses the CCS standard in the UK.

I keep hearing that the second generation of rapid charging is going to be deployed soon in the UK.  Probably in the form of 150kW CHAdeMO. Apparently my Kia already supports CHAdeMO up to 100kW, but I hate to think what that will do to the cells in a 27kWh battery pack. The only active cooling is a fan in the boot that comes on when the cells get warm. It draws air through the pack which can also warm them during winter.
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Erasmo

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Ah the Soul, nice EV but indeed only single phase AC charging.

Yes the infrastructure here is a bit better suited indeed, almost every household has 3 phase electricity so there are plenty of opportunities to install proper charging stations. But good news for you, the Electric Highway has some competition now, Fastned is coming to the UK!
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MostlyBonkers

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I didn't know that Fastned was coming to the UK, thanks again Erasmo!
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Skidz

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Why would you use J-plugs in Europe? Mennekes is the standard here and it has so much more power than a J-plug because it is 3-phase.

Exactly, if you read my question a bit different, I'm asking the same question. Why is my bike fitted with a puny J1772 instead of the more potent Mennekes? Probably because j1772 is a standard in the US and you can't charge any faster then 3,8kW (On paper) anyway... And the adapter is included anyway ;)
Great advantage of having the Mennekes on the bike is that we could be using Fastned without adapters....
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benswing

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As Terry mentioned charging with multiple J plugs is the best! Last summer I cut my charging time down to about 45 minutes for most of my charging stops while going across the country to the four corners of the United States.

However, I must say that on my test ride on an Energica Eva it was particularly nice to charge using CCS. I hope zero is seriously looking into increasing the voltage of their bikes so they can use the exponentially growing system of DC fast charging. But that's for another thread.


Multiple J plugs are currently easier to find then a CCS or CHAdeMO fast charger.
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madcow

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Multiple J plugs are currently easier to find then a CCS or CHAdeMO fast charger.

Here in Germany pretty much all the highways are covered by a CCS network. The network is growing fast since the EU made CCS and Mennekes a standard and the situation is even better in other countries around Europe (Netherlands, Norway etc). If Zero wants to focus on the European market I'd put an emphasis on Mennekes Type 2 charging and/or CCS.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2017, 03:14:54 PM by madcow »
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Skidz

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Exactly. From a Dutch point of view, plugging in twice is silly. Go redesign your EVSE's  ;)
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BrianTRice@gmail.com

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Exactly. From a Dutch point of view, plugging in twice is silly. Go redesign your EVSE's  ;)

It's "a simple matter of" rolling out a new electrical endpoint system across a country 237 times larger and much less dense: http://www.mylifeelsewhere.com/country-size-comparison/united-states/netherlands
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