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When will Zero (re)add faster charging option to allow longer trips (~1C)?

MY 2018
- 8 (34.8%)
MY 2019
- 4 (17.4%)
MY 2020
- 8 (34.8%)
MY 2021
- 1 (4.3%)
MY 2022
- 2 (8.7%)

Total Members Voted: 23


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Author Topic: When will Zero (re)add faster charging option to allow longer trips (~1C)?  (Read 2999 times)

Hansi

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I was very disappointed when Zero removed the DC charging option, I've been waiting for them to re-add it (or equal speed AC) ever since. In my opinion this should be Zeros number 1 priority.

When do you think Zero will (re)add faster charging option?
« Last Edit: February 27, 2017, 06:31:34 AM by Hansi »
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Opel Ampera-e ordered 16.09.16, delivered 08.06.17    Tesla Model 3 reserved 01.04.16
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BrianTRice

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Re: When will Zero (re)add faster charging option to allow longer trips (~1C)?
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2017, 06:55:41 AM »

You're assigning more agency or capabilities to Zero than they deserve. If they can't support it affordably, they won't.

It seems from external observation and signals they've given off about the cost of certifying equipment they ship that they are going to let the aftermarket handle this for a while.

No, I don't like it, either, but that's what we have to deal with. It's not like their solutions are ever cheaper than third-party, anyway.
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Zero: 2016 DSR, 2013 DS
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nevetsyad

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Re: When will Zero (re)add faster charging option to allow longer trips (~1C)?
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2017, 07:33:11 AM »

They have to increase the battery voltage first. Thats going to be some major reengineering.
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2015 Zero SR (4+ months in the shop), 2016 Zero S (Random freeway shutdown, heading to shop soon)

ElectricZen

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Re: When will Zero (re)add faster charging option to allow longer trips (~1C)?
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2017, 08:05:36 AM »

http://diginow.it/super-charger-for-zero-motorcycle.php

Support those who are making it happen with or without Zero!

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Electric Terry

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Zero's main priority right now is making the bike less expensive to produce each year and to try to pass those savings along to the consumer.  So fast charging would take them in the more expensive direction.  And they feel most Zero owners only use their bikes for commuting and won't ever venture more than 40 or 50 miles from their house.  And if they ask current Zero owners only, most will say that.  Because that's all they can do right now.  Also most who bought a Zero already, weren't the type who needed to go very far anyway.

Everyone who is waiting to buy a Zero because they do need to charge faster, wasn't included in their demographic sample so they got the answer they were looking for even though it isn't accurate or representative of the average motorcycle rider. 

If a Zero could have 30 minute charging, they would have to run the production line in 3 shifts 24 hours a day, year round to keep up with demand.  But perhaps they aren't ready for that and don't want to sell more bikes so are holding off on offering faster charging because that would mean an instant increase in demand and sales and they have to prepare supply lines or something first perhaps.

Go ahead, sense the sarcasm in that last paragraph if you care to. ;)

Experiencing faster charging is like indoor plumbing.  Once you experience it, you will gladly pay more to have it.  However if you haven't you don't see exactly how good it is, even though you think you do.  In fact some are like "no I'm good going outside to poop, thanks" while thinking to themselves, "who would want to do that in their house? That would make the whole house smell like crap!"  (Read: I'm ok charging overnight in 8 hours, but thanks)

I think it's fair to say most of the people making the decisions at Zero about fast charging have never ridden a Zero more than 200 miles in a single day.  If they would only "poop inside" just once, they would see the benefit.  I got my friend Luke hooked on AC charging fast about a year ago, and now if you tried to take his fast charger away he would fight you.  Yet 5 years ago he said AC fast charging on a Zero would never be worthwhile.  But since he "pooped inside" he saw the light, even though he thought he saw the light before.  Its one of those things you have to experience just once, yet those that haven't, will tell you they can do the math in their head and understand it perfect.  It doesn't work that way.  I'd love it if they gave the engineering team a week paid off and all they had to do is ride 1000 miles that week on a Zero.

By Monday the following week, fast charging would be the main priority because the lightbulb they could swear was lit before finally went fully bright and they could see everything from both ends of the tunnel instead of just one.

But before they do that, they need to get the production line ready to run 24 hours a day.  It's going to need it.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 01:10:25 PM by Electric Terry »
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BrianTRice

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Terry's perspective is absolutely right. Fast charging is hard to decide to pay for, but absolutely unthinkable to do without once you have it.

I remember when I first told Zero (late last year, at my first factory visit after moving to the area) that my goal was to ride 400 miles per day, and got pretty shocked responses. The Supercharger (at full scale/price) does that, and repeatably. I'm nearing 18000 miles on my DSR now at 13 months of ownership.

Now that I have my Supercharger working smoothly, there's no going back for me. I do want to push that travel-to-charge ratio further with fairings, and even the fairings I'm setting up to transfer to another bike if necessary, just to make sure I can still travel if something goes wrong.
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ElectricZen

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Terry: I love the bathroom analogy!

I would take it to the next level and compare it to using the bathroom in a nice warm and cozy house or using the outhouse in Alaska in the middle of winter 😂. Having travelled long distance via the onboard slow charger, I choose to never revisit that whenever possible. 

Another good way to look at it is with phones.  Anyone have a fast charging phone?  Compare that to the speed that older phones used to charge.  Once you have fast charging, going back to the old way of slow charging seems like going backwards.  Shorter battery life per a charge is less of an issue depending how fast you can charge.  Compare the OnePlus dash charging to other "fast" charging phones.  It makes a difference.

While, of course, I have no doubt people can justify that they see no need.  But it's a really addictive convenience once you experience it!  Basically, who wants an old flip phone when we have smartphones.  Sure there are a few who do, but I would wager 99% of people would get physical before giving up their smartphones.

Btw rolling with two chargers (onboard and supercharger) is definitely the way to go!  Especially if one fails 😉

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Richard230

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I have a different point of view. I love my Zero for commuting and local travel, but for long distances I prefer to ride an IC motorcycle at this time.  They are still cheaper than electric to purchase, gas is also still relatively cheap, you can pick up a perfectly serviceable used IC motorcycle for just a couple of thousand dollars, everyone knows how to work on them and keep them running, parts are available just about everywhere and you can ride an IC motorcycle anywhere in the world and not worry about finding a charging station.  If you only ride electric, then a fast charger is essential, but for the price of a fast charging setup, lots of used IC bikes are available that will get you down the road.  Things may change in the future, but that is the way I see it now - says someone who already has 5 other (IC) motorcycles to ride.
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Richard's motorcycle collection:  2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

BrianTRice

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I have a different point of view. I love my Zero for commuting and local travel, but for long distances I prefer to ride an IC motorcycle at this time.  They are still cheaper than electric to purchase, gas is also still relatively cheap, you can pick up a perfectly serviceable used IC motorcycle for just a couple of thousand dollars, everyone knows how to work on them and keep them running, parts are available just about everywhere and you can ride an IC motorcycle anywhere in the world and not worry about finding a charging station.  If you only ride electric, then a fast charger is essential, but for the price of a fast charging setup, lots of used IC bikes are available that will get you down the road.  Things may change in the future, but that is the way I see it now - says someone who already has 5 other (IC) motorcycles to ride.

These are all true, but you're not speaking to the point at all. Electric motorcycle travel is something qualitatively different and it is undesirable to return to IC travel once electric motorcycle travel works well (individually).

Again with the analogy, it's hard to convince yourself to make investments like this but impossible to give it up willingly. And collectively we're all holding back which makes the adoption landscape work as you have put it.

Vision is part of what changes this situation. And the legwork that makes these machines easy to work on and commodities on the road. Like maintaining the wiki so that a random dealer can read it to work on your bike...
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Hansi

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3 of the 10 recent topics are about DIY faster charging, 4 out of 15.. Hopefully Zero read this forum and takes the hint :)
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 01:33:48 AM by Hansi »
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BrianTRice

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3 of the 10 recent topics are about DIY faster charging, 4 out of 15.. Hopefully Zero read this forum and takes the hint :)

At a recent Zero HQ visit by the Bay Area electric motorcycle riding group, we heard (noncommital) hints from more than one public-facing person that they not only know this but are making a plan.

Reading between the lines (I have no special information, just hear a lot of people make hints over time from different perspectives), I expect a plan to externalize the implementation (let the aftermarket fill it in) but upgrade the bikes to support this better.

I think there's a very valid concern hinted that the contactor hardware would need an upgrade of some kind, which indicates that a certain amount of the upgrade might unfortunately be gated on buying a 2018+ MY bike or being especially intrepid in hacking one's own bike beyond warrantee.
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Skidz

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Isn't the contactor rated at at least driving amps? Or is the charging contactor a different one than the driving contactor? And, in that case, the contactor should be at least 125A since the fuse is at 100A?
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mrwilsn

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Isn't the contactor rated at at least driving amps? Or is the charging contactor a different one than the driving contactor? And, in that case, the contactor should be at least 125A since the fuse is at 100A?
I think it's a matter of peak amps vs. continuous. When riding you get high amp for short bursts.  For charging you want to maintain high amps which generates a lot of heat.

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BrianTRice

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Isn't the contactor rated at at least driving amps? Or is the charging contactor a different one than the driving contactor? And, in that case, the contactor should be at least 125A since the fuse is at 100A?
I think it's a matter of peak amps vs. continuous. When riding you get high amp for short bursts.  For charging you want to maintain high amps which generates a lot of heat.

There's only one contactor I'm aware of per BMS (a power pack has one and a Power Tank unit has one).

Even so, the contactor is firmware-controlled as far as I can tell. The typical long delay action on 1C charging is about 2 minutes; there's a short delay limit of some kind but I'm unsure what that's set at. Whether sustained driving exceeds that, I'm not exactly sure, but different limits could be based on current direction. I do know that the 1C input limit applies while not in charging mode.
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mrwilsn

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Isn't the contactor rated at at least driving amps? Or is the charging contactor a different one than the driving contactor? And, in that case, the contactor should be at least 125A since the fuse is at 100A?
I think it's a matter of peak amps vs. continuous. When riding you get high amp for short bursts.  For charging you want to maintain high amps which generates a lot of heat.

There's only one contactor I'm aware of per BMS (a power pack has one and a Power Tank unit has one).

Even so, the contactor is firmware-controlled as far as I can tell. The typical long delay action on 1C charging is about 2 minutes; there's a short delay limit of some kind but I'm unsure what that's set at. Whether sustained driving exceeds that, I'm not exactly sure, but different limits could be based on current direction. I do know that the 1C input limit applies while not in charging mode.

I've heard that each brick in the monolith has it's own BMS and contactor.  It certainly makes sense that the bricks for the FX/FXS would each have their own contactor since you can run with just one brick and you can charge off the bike so it would make sense for each brick to have it's own contactor.

For the monolith I'm not sure but regardless I was talking about the main contactor that is used to connect/disconnect the battery to the charger and controller as you pointed out.  Just using hypothetical numbers, the contactor could be rated for 1000 amps for 30 seconds, 500 amps for 2 minutes and 200 amps continuous.  So, for the controller it's fine because you don't go over 200 amps for long....the controller is also spec'ed at 30 seconds, 2 minutes and continuous values which vary depending on which controller you have in your bike.  For charging it's also fine because the current limit is 1C which is less than the hypothetical 200 amp limit even for bikes with a power tank.  But going past 1C may require a contactor that has a higher continuous rating.
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