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Author Topic: Too much torque??  (Read 1505 times)

MichaelJohn

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2017, 12:41:32 PM »

I don't understand why people get so preachy and condescending about rider aids. For all of you old school purists I say fine, keep thinking that you can outperform ABS in every panic situation 100% of the time. To that I say more power to you and I hope you're as good as you think you are. I am an older rider who has lived through a lot of technological advancements and I applaud them. I started on kick-start two-stroke carbureted bikes with drum brakes in the 70's. I have only come off a bike one time and that was when I was young and stupid and no rider aids can fix that. Since then I have developed into a decent motorcyclist who can read and react to almost all road situations to avoid trouble and I have done that (so far). However, even the best and most experienced riders can get caught out at times. Once on the Zero I was accelerating away from a light when suddenly the bike started to fishtail. It had rained the day before but the road was dry and there was nothing that I could see to cause me to lose traction. I came very close to losing control and going down but by gradually easing off the throttle I straightened out and recovered. Now there had to have been something on the road to cause the fishtail - perhaps a wet spot that I didn't see or some oil on the road. Whatever it was I missed it and it nearly put me down. Maybe a sharper-eyed rider would have seen something, maybe not - I just know that if the bike had traction control it would have been a non-issue. For all of you that feel that rider aids take away the essence of motorcycling there are plenty of new bikes with safety systems that are fully defeatable. I recently tested two such bikes, a BMW S1000XR and a KTM Super Duke GT. One of the main reasons I am thinking of getting one of those bikes is BECAUSE of the safety systems, which, by the way, are incredibly dialed-in these days. On the BMW I was on the freeway and I downshifted, pinned it and felt the bike starting to power-wheelie - then it gently cut back power just a little a split-second before I did. I was amazed - I am not ashamed to admit that the technology is better than I am. Cornering ABS? I think that's wonderful. If you feel that rider aids dilute the experience don't get a bike that has them, or turn them off. I for one feel that they enhance my riding experience and I can ride with a little more peace of mind. I am very happy to let modern science work for me.
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JaimeC

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2017, 07:00:37 PM »

I never said I was against ABS.  Panic braking is a very real problem and it is often done via reflex rather than conscious action, so it makes it very hard to control.

HOWEVER, whacking the throttle wide open at inappropriate times IS a conscious decision.  I can (almost) see the value of traction control when you are a professional road racer circulating a track at speeds way above mortal limits, and the difference of a tenth of a second could be the difference between a five-figure bonus pay out, or going home with nothing.

On the STREET, however, ESPECIALLY on an unfamiliar bike, a smart rider rides cautiously until he/she is fully familiar with their new machine.  The landmark Hurt Report revealed most motorcycle accidents occurred in the first six months of motorcycle ownership, regardless of the experience of the rider.  Something to keep in mind.
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2016 Zero S: Short trips in traffic
2013 BMW C650GT: Long trips in traffic
1999 BMW K1200LT: For everything else

yhafting

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2017, 10:52:15 PM »

@yhafting, not sure if your term technofobia is really applicable since pretty much everybody here displays exactly the opposite by embracing this new transportation method (technology) so early on.
The technophobia (which i stated because it is a paradox) is likely related to the sense of control.  (I like being in control myself)  ;). And i can relate to the fear of newer versions being released with dumbed down features that you cannot deselect. I also appreciate your description of why you prefer not using traction control/ ABS.

What i consider a good option would be a tunable traction control that would be selectable (or deselectable) in the custom settings. Actually i would like to have three custom settings, and sport/eco just as default settings..

Personally i think some degree of traction control can be achieved fairly easy, given some dedicated computation power for the feature.

If i were to design a traction control, i would test using acceleration as the measure of whether the feature should engage or not (that is- if enabeled). The acceleration limit could be programmable, ranging from above the acceleration which causes violent wheelies to a most front heavy bike and rider crouching forward, to an acceleration causing wheelies when a person standing at the passenger pegs in an attempt to provoke wheelies. By calculating a moving average on the current speed (or something similar), it should be easy enough to limit torque to the point where acceleration falls below the threshold. 

By allowing people to set their own acceleration threshold, the feature could be used both for launch control and prevent violent wheel spins or wheelies. Now it may not be fool proof, (you would still be able to spin as long as the acceleration is small) but it would likely prevent the wheel from sliding out violently in a turn or on a wet/oily spot.

If such a thing worked, it would also be possible to add different settings for different speeds, or allow for fast acceleration enough time to lift the front wheel but not flip the bike entirely. (Probably sacreligious to wheelie enthusiasts, but perhaps good for someone trying to lift the wheel for their first time..)
« Last Edit: February 17, 2017, 10:53:59 PM by yhafting »
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JaimeC

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2017, 11:21:37 PM »

Actually, there is already some control built into the Zero already.  If not, every time you opened the throttle hard on an SR or a DSR, the 106+ ft/lbs of instant torque would be looping the bike over backwards and you'd be smashing your head...
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2016 Zero S: Short trips in traffic
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MostlyBonkers

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #49 on: February 18, 2017, 05:53:51 AM »

I recently got a new set of tyres and now the bike feels more planted. The rear doesn't spin up in conditions it did before. Is that traction control? Most people would just say they're a good set of tyres that help me enjoy the bike more; better handling, better grip, and safer. So what's the difference?

It's nigh on impossible to know the limits of grip unless you're on a circuit and you've been going around it many times. The road surface changes constantly for a start and you don't know the condition of the surface until you're on it. In the dry with decent tyres, most riders won't get close to the limits. In the wet it's completely different. If having torque control means I can accelerate harder and feel confident I won't lose control, then I choose to enjoy my ride and have more fun. Just like a decent set of tyres allow.

It's natural to want to test the limits of a bike and easy to push it too far if you misjudge the conditions a little. I'd much rather see an orange light on the dash to warn me or feel the power reduce before my reactions catch up. We're just human and technology can save our fragile bodies when things go wrong. I don't understand the mentality that suggests we should suffer injury for small errors or road conditions out of our control. If we are going to behave like lunatics, then that's different and no amount of rider aides will stop us getting killed.
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rider7

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #50 on: February 18, 2017, 08:39:12 AM »

This is all good stuff here, I actually really enjoy this discussion.
Can y'all tell how I enjoy the banter here a bit?

So, don't take it too seriously, we'll all end up doing what we want anyway and have our believes etc..
Just don't push for a general mandatory equipment schedule here...... I have nothing really left that is simple, free, gives you plenty of room to screw up or not.... just what riding should be all about.
If you want it super duper ultra safe, there is your four wheeled friend with 22 air bags.
I saw a bumper sticker once "No airbags, die like a man". I thought it was hilarious.

I think this is a discussion that goes to the core of why we ride and not just about torque and traction control.
It is getting interesting and I want to assure you, although I might come across as a bit of a hard ass about pure riding, I accept, tolerate and hear and read everybody's opinion here and enjoy learning from your points of views.

This morning on my way to work, my rear slipped on dry asphalt in a turn without me having seen anything suspicious and I was smiling under my helmet.

I love having to balance this awesome torque with my wrist.

The reason why there are even articles about why one doesn't need a liter bike is that unless you have learned to actually outride a smaller bike, like a 500, 600 etc..... and really learned to ride the gusts out of it,
on a liter bike, a beginner is pretty much constantly busy to not get surprised by the high torque.
When I got my 1200, I intentionally made the bike powerslide to see what I am dealing with.
Every time it would start sliding, I practiced more to ease off more gradually and actually feel the point at within I could torque it out and just let it slide out into a straight line.

I am doing the same right now with the zero, which in my eyes is a high powered bike @gman669,
how else do you want to categorize 116lbs of torque from zero RPM and 0-60 in the high three or low four second range?
The speed? Who gives a sweet mosquitos bottom about speed after 60,70; 80?.
Any ape can go fast. The DSR is actually still nice and quick all the way up to top speed.

Regarding the consequences, a lot of the riders paint the picture of unless you control this immense torque with technology you're going to be caught by surprise one day and then die or damage yourself.
Why?
There was one poster here who said that it doesn't necessarily hold true that you have to go down eventually.
Although that didn't hold true for me on snow and ice etc.... harmless whipeouts are not crashes.... but I agree in its general tenor.

The amazing thrill of riding is exactly having to take responsibility to really make the right decisions all the time.

If I endorse students for their first solo in a helicopter, guess how many simulated engine failures, that I tried to surprise them with (not in a sneaky, dangerous way of course) on their last training flight, they have to catch.
Yes, 5 out of 5. There is no room for error. If they don't catch every single one, they are slated for rotor stall and be 100% dead if it would happen to them on their first solo flight.

This no room for errors applies to riding a bike and that is why I always see parallels to flying and especially flying helicopters.

You are a risk manager, and historically people are taking more risks when the consequences are either less severe for real or perceived.
I have a great example here.

When you learn to fly in a Hughes 300 (old military training helicopter model, Schweizer 300CB now), there is no throttle governor installed.
You constantly have to monitor, feel, sense, check and hear your rotor RPM since that is the equivalent of your indicated air speed in a fixed wing.
You go to slow, the wings stall and well, in a helicopter, you are 100% dead and it is ugly all the way down to the ground.
So, how do you prevent that?
Simple, don't let your rotor stall, ever.
How do you do that?
Learning to train your senses, your visual scan, your every fiber of your body to automatically control the throttle.

In an R22, you have a throttle governor. It automatically adjusts your engine RPM according to your collective settings and keeps your rotor RPM in the green.
It is a wonderful devise, but dangerous and deadly in a heart beat when it fails, or the pilot inadvertently turns it off (students like to do that sometimes, that is always fun) or you forget to turn it on.
Now, I learned to fly without a governor and guess what, my senses are like the ones from the little rodent from ice age that keeps on hunting the A-corn.
I love the fact that every time I get into one of those non augmented, non automated fully in contact with the air helicopters that it is ALL up to you if you live or die.
Like skydiving. You don't pull your shoot, you are dead... wonderful.

You have to learn where you simply cannot afford to have your bike lose control, period.
If you keep on crashing bikes, you should really listen to the message.
It is not for everyone and that is why it is so awesome.

I inserted the last paragraph before I wrote this here... so... ok, a little disjointed but.... here we go...
On a bike, you can afford to temp the threshold of your traction plenty and if you don't catch it, just go down for crying out loud, lay it down, slide a little.... get back up and simply never, yes, never do that when there is no room for that.

I let my ass slide all over the place and have been doing it for 33 years now, but I never do it where there is no chance to recover from serious damage.
That's all.
Within 33 years, I had one or two totally unexpected slides.
All the other ones I kind of knew they could happen like the one this morning, but guess what, if I would have laid it down, I wouldn't have been dead or seriously injured, hence..... it gave me the smile to work.

Yhafting,
Thanks for sharing my opinion about the issue having to disarm my bike of its protective measures all the time, and although I like your idea of making this "pickable" in the custom modes, it is really just a matter of time that all your high tech is failing and you'll have to update and update and get it scanned and repaired.
It is not a matter if that happens, it is when it happens.
I am already a bit freaked having no real autonomy anymore with this electrical drive train.
There is no fixing on the side of the road anymore, so we are all depending on a real solid, well tested and matured technology which the zero guys seem to have accomplished over the last 10 years.
If all bikes at some point "have to have" the latest and greates slip, slide, anti die features, engineers will be pushed to release systems quicker.
Heck, I have never even heard of cornering ABS, gosh... those Germans again......
I happen to be German, I mean for real... grew up there, and actually we Germans are purists by design thus we have made fun of people who bought automatic transmission cars for years and years.
We call them "Warmduscher", which loosely means, someone who absolutely declines to take anything but warm showers.
Oh well... I know, we are weird.

So, everybody, buy a 250 motocross bike, get some gear and ride the shit out of it and learn to deal with breaking traction.
Breaking traction and knowing when it is ok and when absolutely not will safe your life for real for decades to come.
Trusting your electronic blanket is a false sense of security.

And by the way, my first full lockups on the front happened just recently (a year ago or so) on my heavy 1200 sports bike.
I did really not anticipate it (they said the brakes suck on these Kawaski's), hell that thing began to head towards the ground.
Guess what, yes, I agree, there was no time to react, it was pure reflex from years of having experienced the little skids and slides of the front, the "almost" threw that thing down and so forth.
Without that constant fine tuning of my senses of how much you load a front tire, wich by the way is the key for fast track times, I would have gone down like a clown.
And for good measures, I repeated the same thing twice on this bike within two months, no idea why, I guess I didn't believe it the first two times, and every time, my body reacted exactly like I trained it to react.

I could have never learned that with freaking ABS...... no way, Jose......

I am sure I pinched a couple of people again and made them shake their heads..... Oh, this is fun...... lock it up, slide it, but don't do it where you end up with your foot wrapped around your neck.

Rider7
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Richard230

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #51 on: February 18, 2017, 08:47:05 PM »

I have said more than once that I ride motorcycles as transportation, to get from here to there and back again.  While I enjoy riding, I don't do it only for fun, but so that I don't have to drive a car to get to where I want to go.  While riding I spend all of my mental processes managing my route, the traffic around me and doing my best to avoid any kind of accident. (Which is one big reason why I don't like to ride with others, as I can't predict what they are going to do and I know that they will not be riding the same way that I do.) So far I have been pretty successful. Which is why I don't feel the need for expensive and complicated gadgets that are supposed to keep me safe.  I figure that is what my brain and my experience should be doing.

But that is not to say that the various safety devices that have been mentioned are not very good things for a new rider to have until they acquire enough experience, skills and knowledge to avoid an accident.  I just don't want them mandated by government regulators and be forced to have them on my vehicle without me having a choice.
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rider7

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #52 on: February 20, 2017, 01:35:22 AM »

Quote
Which is why I don't feel the need for expensive and complicated gadgets that are supposed to keep me safe.  I figure that is what my brain and my experience should be doing.

But that is not to say that the various safety devices that have been mentioned are not very good things for a new rider to have until they acquire enough experience, skills and knowledge to avoid an accident.  I just don't want them mandated by government regulators and be forced to have them on my vehicle without me having a choice.

Richard230,

I think you are dead on that your brain and experience keep you safe.

The issue is that you cannot develop feeling and experience with automation.

And especially beginners, who shouldn't be on a bike with 116lbs or torque period, will never be able to develop the only riding skills that will really keep them safe.
Their judgement and their feeling,
and above all, where they can afford to possibly lose traction and kind of play with it and where it could possibly be deadly and they simply need to make sure that it won't happen.

Although I am not for general regulations like this, but we had them in Germany and then Europe for a long time already.
The law doesn't allow young inexperienced riders to ride high powered and high torque bikes for a certain time until they graduate to them. Your license is staggered into classes that restrict the amount of power and CCs you can ride for a certain period of time.

Now, although I grew up before they created that law, and I was happy that I could ride whatever I wanted and be responsible with it, I do believe that something like that is possibly smarter than building technologies that literally don't allow humans to make decisions about the operation of a vehicle anymore for the sake of their safety.

There is really no reason for anybody who doesn't have a good track record and experience to be on a high performance bike.
I would go as far as if you have three major accidents, you need to stay off bikes.

The problem with the safety systems once generally installed, accepted and then also cheap enough, they'll be mandatory and soon, you won't be able to turn them off.
History has shown.

Ok, I'll let it simmer now for a while.
I think I won't be able to convince anybody that rider skills and attitude is what's the real safely tool and not technology.

And no, I am not saying that a human can outperform a well designed system in a quantifiable comparison test,
but in the overall scenario and outcome it can, since ABS for instance cannot sense your corner entry speed etc..... but, I should shut up now, because mark my words....... all that crap is going to come down the line for bikes as well.....

Automated brakes, corner entry speed regulation, lean angle warner.... bla...bla... horrible.....

all of that stuff comes from the a... holes that every day on the streets think they can drive without paying attention and cause accidents.

Honestly, I think that 90% of all accidents are all caused because people simply do not take responsibility for their action.

Same thing here, three accidents and you have to walk in my opinion.
Heck, the FAA takes your license if you have accidents and rightfully so.

Rider aids.... ?
At some point a connected, responsible and capable human is not going to count at all anymore.
Insurances will only ask you if you have system x,y,z installed.

Come on guys, we all know where this is going.

Leave the decisions to the individual humans and away from the engineers and the bureaucrats.
But, you have to take the individuals off the street that keep on counting their wrecks and think nothing of it.

Rider7

« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 01:47:11 AM by rider7 »
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Kocho

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #53 on: February 20, 2017, 01:58:08 AM »

I have not made-up my mind about "govt. mandate" or not for such safety devices. In the grand scheme of things, they will save lives and medical bills. Also, I don't buy the argument that one can't develop skills with these aides - they are possible to tone down and defeat. In fact, they can help develop skills by letting one safely reach and exceed the traction limit, feel that point learn where it is, and live to tell (and not have to replace half their bike, since the bike smarts will recover from the situation).

Also, for new riders, or for riders new to their bikes, I think they are especially good. In the early months with my SR I tested the limits of the ABS braking on purpose, just to see what the bike is capable of in various braking situations (straight line). That's not the same as playing ABS with my wrist, sure, but that's all I need on a bike with ABS. On a few occasions the ABS kicked-in when I had to do a near-emergency break/maneuver. Who knows if I would have been able to stop otherwise or side-slip...

Let's take things in perspective. Commuting vs. tough guy racing. I'll take all the aids available on my commute, thank you very much. Real racers will take the aids too, because they let them brake later and accelerate sooner and harder. So who's left? "Purists", anti-tech folks, and those who want cheaper bikes. I can personally relate to all three of these categories, and my personal balance, however, comes to overall I feel the benefit of having well-implemented aids outweighs the drawbacks. For others their preferences might lead them to another balance. From that perspective mandating aids would be bad, so I can relate to that too, but I think they should be an available option for those who want them, and if studies do show a significant decrease in injuries and deaths, mandatory regulation might be a good thing after all :)
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 02:00:10 AM by Kocho »
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Richard230

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #54 on: February 20, 2017, 04:51:38 AM »

Good arguments can be made either way. I certainly believe that new riders would benefit with many safety devices until they get a grip on riding in traffic, in particular. However, all riders have to have their wits about them and must realize the you can not rely on the latest gadgets to keep you from being hit by another motorist, cornering too fast, not paying attention to the road conditions, etc. Those kind of lessons take a lot of riding experience and time to learn. And there is little room for error.  One mistake while riding a motorcycle can really hurt both your body and your wallet. While riding safety aids can help and are certainly useful on cars and trucks, riding motorcycles are just a different type of experience and not everyone should be doing it - especially in the U.S., where the emphasis is on selling the vehicle and not on rider training.
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Richard's motorcycle collection:  2014 14.2 kWh Zero S, 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

rider7

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #55 on: February 20, 2017, 06:23:23 AM »

I agree....
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