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Author Topic: Too much torque??  (Read 1178 times)

protomech

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Too much torque??
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2017, 07:10:33 PM »

I have had ABS on a couple of BMWs in the past and also have traction control and cornering ABS on my latest BMW. I have never felt any of these features being activated while I am riding.  So far they appear to be a waste of money and add extra weight to my motorcycle to me.   ???  I might also add that I have "semi-active" automatic suspension on my R12RS and I can't tell any difference in its operation compared with the "dumb" suspension that I have on my other motorcycles. Frankly, I just don't get a lot of these latest electronic devices.  To me they seem more like marketing promotions and a way to charge more money for the product.   ???  Just one more thing to go wrong.   ::)  I like a simple life where I get to make all of my riding choices and suffer the consequences according.  Otherwise how can you learn from your mistakes?   ;)
Here's the trouble with that mentality:

Most riders will never get into a situation where electronic aids will save them from death.

We know this because there's not a 100% mortality rate among riders pre-aid.

So, at best aids can save a portion of avoidable rider deaths from a small % of the overall rider population, as well as a few embarrassing low sides. If the aids work correctly, they should be 100% unobtrusive in nearly all situations, save the ones where they prevent complete loss of control of the bike.

Is it worth the weight, expensive, and complication to save a small number of rider lives per year?

I think the answer to that has to be "yes".

Are there other downsides, such as training lazy riders or allowing people to compensate for the aids, potentially allowing them to over-ride the actual mechanical grip of the tires?

Maybe. But that's a longer discussion; and the same argument btw applies to all mandatory safety devices and improvements in cars as well, and as bitter as some people seem to be about those, on the whole they have saved a huge number of lives.
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Kocho

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2017, 08:14:08 PM »

Let's look at it from another perspective: eco mode vs. sport. How many of you "expert" riders here think Eco mode on SR is good on wet or otherwise slippery condition?

Why not use our "brains and wrists" instead, and keep it in Sport mode all the time? After all, its all rider skill and thrill, right? Because it makes sense to have the bike adapt to the conditions and work with the rider to get the most of it, and not to fight with the rider, requiring extreme skill and attention to keep upright. Otherwise it gets unnecessarily tiring and dangerous.

That's what rider aides are for. Riding modes like our Eco mode are "rider aids". And Eco is an example of one such aid that doesn't go far enough in some aspects (like, can't detect and deal with wheel slip on acceleration or overbrakng), yet cripples power and speed... I call this intrusive and overly restrictive, just like the factors some are complaining about for other aides and therefore reject them. Yet folks like having the Eco option on their bikes and use it. Let's be honest with ourselves - skill is good, skills and tools are better. Or we'd be still in the trees picking bananas, maybe stuck in the stone age, since who the heck needs aides to deal with mother nature and wildlife ;) 

Again, cost aside, traction control and other such aides are a safety net we will all need and be thankful for at some point. Usually, as MostlyBonkers said, when our brains and bodies simply can't deal with a situation fast enough. Everything can be misused, sure, but that's a poor argument to not have it...
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Richard230

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2017, 09:26:57 PM »

My problem with a lot of these recent electronic "aids" is that to me they appear to be hyped excessively by the press and I really don't think they are fully "baked" yet.  If you listen to the manufacturers, the press and salespeople, you would think that modern electronic aids and other gadgets will practically ride your bike for you and you can sit there listening to your music and watching your GPS, while letting the gadgets save your bacon if something unexpected happens - like running into sand while riding around a corner.  ABS, traction control and similar recent computer-controlled "safety" nets might help you in some circumstances, but you are better off relying on your own brain and experience when riding a motorcycle.  In 800,000 miles of riding I have had only one accident, when I hit a patch of oil while rounding a steep down-hill hairpin. Neither ABS nor traction control would have kept me from dropping my K100RS that time.

Plus, it irritates me that when legislators and regulators hear about all of these "safety" devices, they want to mandate them for all vehicles.  Personally, I would prefer to have the option to select the safety accessories that I want on my vehicle and compare the perceived benefit of having them installed against the cost of doing so.  To that end, I used to special order my BMW motorcycles from the factory without ABS, but now that is no longer a choice because European regulators have made ABS mandatory for all motorcycles and you can no longer order one without that feature.

But I still have my Royal Enfield.  It has no ABS or much of anything else for that matter, including even a trip-meter on the speedometer.  But it does have a kick starter, just in case the electrons fail to do their job.   ;)
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Doug S

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2017, 09:45:22 PM »

I tend to be among the "don't protect me from myself" crowd. In my mind, part of being an adult is knowing how to keep your ass out of trouble (it isn't worth showing off for friends is one of the more practical guidelines there).

OTOH....I was skeptical of anti-lock brakes when they first showed up on cars, too. But in the 20 years or so I've had that feature on cars I've owned, at least three times they've kept me out of fender-benders. Otherwise they've been unobtrusive to the point of being unnoticed. I can't think of any time they've actually saved my life, but it is at least theoretically possible.

There's always a fair amount of reluctance to adopting a new technique. I don't want my car driving itself, but the fact is, Teslas drive themselves more safely than the owners of the cars do, and that technology is still in its infancy.

As an EE and firmware engineer, I wonder how ABS/traction control works on motorcycles at all. On a car, you have three other wheels to serve as reference points to decide if one of them is skidding/sliding, but on a motorcycle, you have only one other wheel to compare to. Is the rear wheel turning faster than the front because it's slipping under throttle or is the front wheel locked up? You'd have to rely much more heavily on transient conditions (it was turning quite a bit faster 1/2 second ago, so it's probably starting to lock up) because you have only the one external reference. Nonetheless, by all accounts both ABS and traction control work well on motorcycles if done properly.

It's pretty clear these things work and benefit us, if not immediately, then once the bugs get all worked out. I guess I'd have to say "color me skeptical but open-minded".
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KrazyEd

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2017, 09:57:03 PM »

As far as "protect us from ourselves" goes, IF a rider is competent and attentive, then these protections are seldom needed.
Unfortunately, there are far too many people who don't pay attention and are not competent. These people swear that they
don't need helmets, or when forced to wear one, wear the absolute least that they can get away with. These people are the
reason that real riders ( and drivers ) get saddled with all of the things we have today. They crash, end up with major
hospital stays, brain dead etc. WE have to pick up the tab for all of that.
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Shadow

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2017, 11:36:15 PM »

@Doug S if you have those references, say from hall sensors or gyroscopes, is there too much torque to effectively do 2-wheeled stability control?
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Doug S

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2017, 12:46:12 AM »

Sorry, I didn't mean to say or imply it can't be done...people are doing it, so clearly it's possible. I'm just saying I find it impressive that it works as well as it does. There are a lot of smart people out there doing things that way surpass me!

To answer your question, if you know the rear wheel is slipping because the pavement can't support the amount of torque that's being put out, it's always possible to modulate the throttle to control that. Either the rider or the electronics can do it, the result is the same. The trick is knowing exactly what's called for, in a fraction of a second.

Sure, more sensors help. Gyros, positions sensors and the like are all great. Plus there's other information available from the bike. In the example I gave, if the throttle opening is 0 and the brakes are on, it seems much more likely that the front wheel is locking up than that the rear is spinning. But what if the throttle opening is high AND the brakes are applied? Do you manage that by modulating the throttle, the front brake, or both?

It would be a hell of a design challenge, which would be a lot of fun and very intimidating at the same time.
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ticobrahe

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2017, 01:53:24 AM »

Sorry you went through that, OP. Must not have been fun to deal with on every level.

For what it's worth: I've taken several safety courses and attended the Yamaha racing school. I mildly chuckle when anybody say's to me: there are two types of riders, those who've gone down and those who will. While somewhat amusing, that axiom is flat out garbage. I know several long-time riders who've never gone down, including myself. Not bragging (and certainly not welcoming the Gods of Karma to come and get me for typing this), but with continuous conscious effort and attenuated critical-thinking and decision-making, nearly all mishaps are either avoidable, mitigable, or at least, manageable.

Smooth and steady throttle and braking inputs, trail braking into corners (and off the line as in your case, OP) so as to load the tires and compress the forks & stiffen the frame for the best possible lean geometry and traction, constant situational awareness and monitoring the environmental indicators, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.

No rider is perfect, but all riders have an opportunity to use scientifically and anecdotally proven best practices to decrease their chances of disaster.

All that said, I would not have purchased my SR if it didn't have the torque that it does and the delivery of it that it does. To be more direct, the sole reason I purchased the SR is b/c I feel like TRON with all that instant torque and none of my other rides (past and present) even come close to approximating it. You can count me in the camp that no, there is not too much torque.

Had I the bankroll for an Energica, you can bet I'd be over on that forum currently talking about torque and erections and whatnot.

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Richard230

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2017, 04:59:03 AM »

I recommend that new riders don't take advice from me.  ;) I am a Luddite, a Contrarian and an Old Dog.  And you know what they say about "old dogs".    ::)
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Duskfire

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2017, 06:31:02 AM »

Had I the bankroll for an Energica, you can bet I'd be over on that forum currently talking about torque and erections and whatnot.

Rofl you win the forum with this comment!
Anyways I didn't mean it had too much torque I meant I used too much of it lol. I bought the SR primarily because I got a steal of a deal on it, I would of been happy on a regular S. But I've been on liter bikes and various medium sized bikes and I generally prefer a lighter bike to one that weighs a f-ton, is the SR weighed more than the S I would of held out, but since it didn't I went for the "monster"
Anyways all posts aside, I'll play around on the safe side until I get used to having so much instant power at my disposal. It's been a sore couple of days lol


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MrDude_1

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2017, 09:56:50 PM »

As an EE and firmware engineer, I wonder how ABS/traction control works on motorcycles at all. On a car, you have three other wheels to serve as reference points to decide if one of them is skidding/sliding, but on a motorcycle, you have only one other wheel to compare to. Is the rear wheel turning faster than the front because it's slipping under throttle or is the front wheel locked up? You'd have to rely much more heavily on transient conditions (it was turning quite a bit faster 1/2 second ago, so it's probably starting to lock up) because you have only the one external reference. Nonetheless, by all accounts both ABS and traction control work well on motorcycles if done properly.

It's pretty clear these things work and benefit us, if not immediately, then once the bugs get all worked out. I guess I'd have to say "color me skeptical but open-minded".

I think you guessed it... its Primarily wheel speed delta... atleast on the Bosch system.. it sets a max decel rate it will allow based on speed with assumptions for max traction possible.
thats why on the BMW S1000RR on slicks on a track, you drop major time with ABS off vs on... you cant take advantage of the slicks with it on.
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yhafting

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2017, 05:32:35 AM »

Interesting thread. So much technofobia amongst early adaptors of electric motorbikes...

Lets just face it: even the throttle responce of the bike uses algorithms to give you the control needed for the bike. Adding anti spin could be nice- if the implementation is good. Bad implementation = boring bike, but this is not an argument for not gaining that ability. Cost is, but once made-and perfected- code can be reused to great extent. I cannot think of any sound reason why i would not have ABS or traction control once it is well implemented and as long as i can turn it off when i feel like. Even if you have ridden 50 years, without an accident, the day you were caught off guard you may still be happy that you had it. Most likely you would never had known it was there unless deliberately testing it. (i've certainly tested my ABS, but not in traffic.)

Personally my SR is my first bike. It is a great first bike. It is probably meaner to experienced over-confident riders than beginners. Before i got my license i practiced on this bike. It took some practice before i adjusted the custom torque past the eco mode, but the fact that i had that option made it great while learning. Nowdays i use all modes. Eco mode mostly for regen downhill, sport when i ride for fun, and custom for commuting and rainy conditions. Torque in custom i set to approxymately 70% to have better control in dense traffic. Regen is only 5% if any to have good control between cars and in slippery condition. This, along with fixed gear, makes the bike much more favourable than ICE for a beginner.

Thats my 5 cents.  :P
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Duskfire

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2017, 08:21:50 AM »

@yhafting
Yeah I've got to agree, I went from a sports bike to this, and like I said in an earlier reply, I've been on a lot of different bikes and consider myself an experienced rider, but my mentality had a core conflict, I am inexperienced on the Zero SR, it's a new bike that doesn't behave as others I've ridden does. Like a previous poster commented an R1 won't step out like that on dry ground. It's simply a different beast, and my post here is mostly to remind those who share the "I know what I'm doing" mentality to stop and remember it's a new category, it's not the R1 they left in the garage.


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rider7

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2017, 08:22:18 AM »

All,

I like your opinions and your reasons for and against traction control etc.

@yhafting, not sure if your term technofobia is really applicable since pretty much everybody here displays exactly the opposite by embracing this new transportation method (technology) so early on.

Here is my issue with traction and other controls besides that I wrote half a page already about this.

Being able to turn it off unfortunately doesn't cut it.
I'd like to have ABS off all the time but..... I will not be able to endure the constant process of holding buttons down and wait until something turns off before I can begin my ride.
I want to hop on my bike in a moment's notice and zip away.
The slight delay for the battery contactor to close is almost too much.
And pulling the fuse won't do it either, since I'd have this constant red light on the dashboard. Although now that I mentioned it, I'll try pulling the fuse and see how much the light pisses me off.

I don't think that anybody can really understand what I mean unless they would actually take a bike and explore what it does when you simply overbrake the wheels and learn to sense it and recover from it.

I rode my bikes through decades of ice and snow and there is no substitute for the feeling you develop when you have free range over your riding controls unhampered by technology.

ABS is not necessary and actually dangerous because it doesn't let you develop that essential feeling for loading up a tire and going behyond it in situations in which you should even get close to that in the first place. 
Take a bike, lock the front tire and recover. It is not rocket surgery.

I don't think we need to talk about the rear period. Letting the rear slide under breaking and actually modulate it is not just fun, but also an essential skill in bike riding.
Learning to properly trail brake into turns is essential for advanced cornering. It increases stability and handling hence safety of your bike.
There are tons of good articles out there that deal with that technique.

http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/05/28/the-brake-light-initiative-treatise-on-motorcycle-control-using-your-braking-skills

https://www.n2td.org/trail-braking/

Anyway,  back to where we were,
I am all for technology, I am going to install TPMS (tire pressure monitoring) soon, because I am too lazy to check my tire pressure, which I do all the time regardless of being lazy.
So, I'll let technology help me with pleasure.

But, bikes are attractive because they can do thing that cars simply cannot do.
And they are attractive because they allow you to make choices that are almost impossible to make nowadays when surrounded by public life.
Almost every normal person (non rider) makes a comment about riding in reference that it is dangerous.
Frankly, it is as dangerous as you make it minus the unlucky 5-10% shit happens factor that can cost you your life even in a car with 22 airbags.

There is a very fine difference in the essence doing something that is 100% safe (although theoretically that doesn't actually exist) or having to live with a fact that if you are not smart and careful it will bite you.

By the way, there are a huge amounts of situations in which traction control on or off doesn't even matter, since I have to take the responsibility for myself and for others and slow the f.... down and make sure no matter what that I won't be the idiot throwing my bike through other traffic participants like I am bowling.
The situations where traction control would activate are all situations where I'd simply crash the bike and be ok anyway, since I am not doing it where I could be taken volley by oncoming traffic, or be shredded by 18 wheelers that are directly behind me or, or, or....
It is part of reading the street, gauging your speed difference to others and always minimizing the situations where there is no out.
I maybe am in situations where there is no alternative, the oh shit bail out 2% of my entire riding time.
If there is no out, I am not there by either staying back, or mostly just by clearing out using the Zero's tremendous time machine function (torque).
Any turn or intersection I am approaching I always visualize where the heck I would fly and how much energy I'd have to get rid off by either laying it down, or trying to ride it through my alternative path that I already have picked. I even prepare the worst situation, oncoming traffic left turn, the classic killer, I watch them, prepare to brake the shit out of my bike and then ride around them if possible and if not, either lay it down and bump them, or prepare to hit them and jump as high as I can to clear the car.
I is about the mental preparation.
If I cannot live with that analysis, I slow the f... down and reduce any possible mishap to simply a bit over "bicycle road rash".
And yes, I slow the f... down quite often.
When you watch You tube videos of bike crashes, I notices that 80% give or take of all those horrific crashes, where most guys say, well that was the car's fault is actually not true.
In most of those cases their differential speed was way out of proportion. Yes, technically the car was at fault, but in all reality, they are charging through traffic like idiots and get cut off because no one has to suspect anyone coming through lanes of traffic that fast with no time to react or correct once the fatal mistake and error was made to cross that path. I get a kick out of seeing the same behavior all the time.
I'd say too high of differential speed to your surroundings are the number one killer of bikers. You are not giving anybody involved a chance. And it doesn't really matter if technically the car shouldn't have crossed your path.
Dead or paralyzed is dead or paralyzed...

So, what I am saying is that with systems that are constantly taking over when you overreached the physical laws, you'll never actually feel what riding is all about.
You're not riding, you're transporting your body from point A to point B.
Sorry, and it's ok if you want to disagree with me, obviously it's ok, but I want to be in charge when it comes to controlling a machine.

That is why they gave me such a great algorithm to be able to torque my rear wheel until I lose traction.
That is on purpose and is essential, or else it's not what I want from riding at this point of my riding life.
I highly recommend and suggest to anybody to either buy a less torquey bike, or dial the modes down for a long, long time until they are really, really, ready.
But traction control will diminish the idea of an awesome motorbike.
And wait until it begins to fail, that's when the real fun starts.

Awesome thread, great viewpoints, lovely discussion.

Rider7
 
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gman669

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2017, 10:53:03 AM »

In my opinion if you think any bike has too much power or torque for you to ride without crashing you should reconsider your decision. 250cc streebikes exist for a reason. The zero is nice that you can adjust it as you wish,but honestly the zero isn't a high performance bike and if you cant manage it without traction control you should stick to 4 wheels
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