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Author Topic: Too much torque??  (Read 1503 times)

Duskfire

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2017, 01:29:11 AM »


I'm glad you're healthy and sharing the story. We can all benefit to know more about the importance of a good helmet, protective riding gear, and crash protection equipment on a bike.

I did have my leathers, shoes, gloves and helmet on, but regular jeans for what was only going to be a <10 mile trip :( unfortunately my hip is what got scraped, and the location of my shoulder armor didn't do me much good on my arm, but I've got skin there still so no complaints lol. I'm actually not feeling as sore today as I thought I would. Ordered new mirrors last night..


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Lenny

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2017, 03:35:44 AM »

Feeling very sorry for you duskfire, glad you and you're bike are ok, well at least more or less.

I don't want to get into the details here, but I've laid down a Zero as well. No one around to impress, but ignoring all warnings to use sport mode without being used to an electric powertrain. Thankfully it was a low speed and with only minor damage, but I've learned a lesson.

Will take part in a drive&security training by the end of April to get more experience and test out the limits with my FXS under controlled conditions.

Take care!
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laramie LC4

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2017, 03:59:40 AM »

yup, only takes once. as a dez, dirt rider i quickly realized that what would be a laughable get off in the dirt, can really mess you up on the tarmac.

pants and shoes are typically your biggest issues. pants are tough to deal with unless your packing a set of "over-pants." it's hard to find a pair of ballistic pants that can survive an off without skinning you alive, without looking ridiculous. unless you work as mechanic or plumber, this probably won't work for your office attire.

shoes though can be dealt with. there are lot's of "reinforced" biker shoes out there. i currently use the FLY Racing M16. i got the black and grey ones and they are pretty non-shilaunt but as soon as you put them on you can tell they aint your normal tennis shoes. crush proof soles, ankle support and bracing, and abrasion resistant fabric. they are pretty tough and are tolerable enough to wear all day.

as always it's a balance of risk vs. reward. you're the only one you can decide where to draw the lines.

laters,

laramie  ;)
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JaimeC

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2017, 04:04:03 AM »

Okay, I'm going to show my age here BUT:  EVERY motorcycle has a "traction control."  It is your right wrist and your BRAIN.  Problems occur when your brain becomes disconnected from your wrist.  That's true of electric bikes and ICE bikes.  The "throttle" is a variable input for a reason, it is NOT a binary "on/off" switch.

So many accidents occur today because riders (and drivers) rely on machines to compensate for their own shortcomings.  The result may be more and more complex (and expensive) systems on our machines, but at the expense of lazier and less skilled operators.  Self-driving cars seem to be the ultimate expression of that trend in the four wheeled world; I'd rather NOT see it happen in the two-wheeled world.
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Duskfire

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2017, 04:14:55 AM »

Okay, I'm going to show my age here BUT:  EVERY motorcycle has a "traction control."  It is your right wrist and your BRAIN.  Problems occur when your brain becomes disconnected from your wrist.  That's true of electric bikes and ICE bikes.  The "throttle" is a variable input for a reason, it is NOT a binary "on/off" switch.

So many accidents occur today because riders (and drivers) rely on machines to compensate for their own shortcomings.  The result may be more and more complex (and expensive) systems on our machines, but at the expense of lazier and less skilled operators.  Self-driving cars seem to be the ultimate expression of that trend in the four wheeled world; I'd rather NOT see it happen in the two-wheeled world.

Ouch bro, that's some cold hard truth there!  ;) Like I said, there's a big difference between a linnier torque curve of the Zero's from the regular curve of an ICE bike, the accident didn't occur because I was expecting the machine to overcome my short comings, I'm an experienced rider, with a lot of different makes and models under my belt. It occurred because I put the thing in "deathtrap" setting without being used to it in eco. As I see you have a regular sport, there's something to be said for the difference in your torque settings and my SR, maybe you wouldn't have let the people egg you on so much, but I'm willing to bet if you had been in the same situation minutes into your first ride, and had made the mistake to put it into Sport mode so early with little experience on an electric anything, you may have been caught off guard too. I had even waited to be straightened out from my corner, and was barley slanted, I didn't try to wheelie it or anything, just a smooth twist, but a little bit too far of a twist on a slick road.
No reason to be so harsh
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BrianTRice

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2017, 04:17:28 AM »

Okay, I'm going to show my age here BUT:  EVERY motorcycle has a "traction control."  It is your right wrist and your BRAIN.  Problems occur when your brain becomes disconnected from your wrist.  That's true of electric bikes and ICE bikes.  The "throttle" is a variable input for a reason, it is NOT a binary "on/off" switch.

So many accidents occur today because riders (and drivers) rely on machines to compensate for their own shortcomings.  The result may be more and more complex (and expensive) systems on our machines, but at the expense of lazier and less skilled operators.  Self-driving cars seem to be the ultimate expression of that trend in the four wheeled world; I'd rather NOT see it happen in the two-wheeled world.

I've already worked out the apologetics for why Zero's don't yet offer traction control (R&D costs of nearly 7 figures, mainly), so won't repeat that here. I will agree that all my fishtails did not wind up with me laying down the bike; shifting weight into the footpegs and easing off the throttle has always been sufficient so far.

But I will say that it's hard to train any person walking into a dealership to mind a Zero well enough on a demo ride or as a new owner. The recent thread about a salvage title from a demo ride crash I think is illustrative.

There might be software compromises like:
- Allowing different roll-on torque curve settings (exposing Sevcon features through the app) so dealers can avoid getting their bikes trashed while still impressing the customer.
- Use another Sevcon setting to limit the rate of wheel spin-up (RPMs per second as I recall) as a kind of traction control. Probably again with an override in the app or by the dealer.
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Fivespeed302

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2017, 04:27:47 AM »

I'm with Rider7 that I don't see a need for these aids. In fact the FXS I've got on order will be the first bike I've ever owned with ABS. Us old guys learned to ride without them. (Only last month I locked up the front under emergency braking on cold tarmac and tyres. Managed to save it - with a little bit of luck too of course.)

Getting back on topic... Sorry to hear about your off, Duskfire. Glad to hear you're unharmed and seem to be taking it well.

I know a Honda dealer who trashed a Fireblade with 0.3 miles on the clock under similar circumstances. He was just about to hand it over to a customer.

You don't have a SR coming so you don't know what those of us who do are speaking of.  I ride a R1 too and it doesn't go around spinning the rear with no warning like the SR does.  It won't happen generally on dry pavement unless you're leaned over or making a turn from one street to another.  On the slightest of damp streets, it'll break loose when you least expect it.  Your FXS doesn't have the same torque to give you the issues we're complaining about.
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MostlyBonkers

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2017, 06:10:14 AM »

Brian, I missed your post on the 7 figure R & D costs for traction control.  Would you mind posting a link please? I like your suggestions for the rpm rate of increase limit, I'm sure that would help a lot.

Let's not forget that part of the reason we need rider aids like traction control is because the performance of bikes has improved dramatically over the years.  Also, there isn't a single ICE bike that can deliver maximum torque instantly at the flick of a wrist. Unless you're already at optimal revs, in which case you're already on it because the bike is screaming.  Then the torque drops. Very few bikes can deliver the kind of torque an SR delivers in the first place and they all have fatter tyres.

It's just so much easier to get into trouble with all that instant torque. If you want to test your mettle on every single ride you can always turn traction control off.  What's the point though? Aren't you better off being able to enjoy the bike more fully without worrying that you'll overcook it and kill yourself? The thrill of motorcycling is being able to accelerate and corner quickly. Traction control helps most riders get the most out of their bikes whilst having a safety net. We know we've overdone it because we can feel the traction control or see a light flickering. The backend steps out for a fraction of a second rather than as long as our reactions take. That can make the difference between an increased heart rate and no heart rate.

Zeros are also predominantly commuter bikes. I know I'm not always at my best on my way to work or back. Easy to not notice a fresh diesel spill in the dark. Impossible to spot sometimes.

In fact I'd much rather learn the limits of my bike with the assistance of traction control and dial it down as I get more competent and have the right opportunity. It can be thought of as a valuable tool for learning how to ride better without as much risk.

I have much more fun playing an F1 game with a few driving assists switched on. I can concentrate on enjoying the circuit, going round the bends with the right line and going faster than I would otherwise. How many of us reach the levels of proficiency that would make us quicker without the assists? None at all probably. Give an F1 driver a bit of clever traction control and I'll bet they post better lap times. That's why they ban it. They wouldn't spin off the track as much and that's what spectators like.

I think people have a hard time coming to terms with the fact that computers do a better job of applying power and braking than humans could ever hope to achieve. They also make driving and riding safer and, I argue, more fun when well implemented.  Brains just aren't good enough anymore. Unless you don't mind going slower and at much greater risk of getting killed. I know what I find more enjoyable.
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Duskfire

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2017, 07:24:50 AM »

Well said Bonkers!
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BrianTRice

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2017, 10:37:33 AM »

Brian, I missed your post on the 7 figure R & D costs for traction control.  Would you mind posting a link please? I like your suggestions for the rpm rate of increase limit, I'm sure that would help a lot.


Apparently I ranted less about it than I probably thought about it:
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6329.msg48833#msg48833
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5993.msg45126#msg45126
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5072.msg34904#msg34904

The general gist is that whatever traction control does has to interfere inside the motor controller, and at the time I had not properly understood enough from the Sevcon manual which I was researching to figure out how reverse gearing worked (which turned out to have some bug in the 2016 DSR for reasons I have an idea about but haven't received a fix/answer for).

In any case, the point I had was that for Zero to make a traction control system, it'd have to be really proprietary and require custom programming of the Sevcon controller against the rear wheel speed sensor, and no off the shelf Bosch system would do it, and I know they paid a lot of money for the Bosch equipment. Getting that through US DOT and EU/etc regulations would also add money and time to the project. (The OEM has to make sure the feature doesn't backfire and kill people or cause the bike to go dead.) If you count engineers dedicated to developing it and the money required for testing and certification against everything else Zero ought to do, you can see how it hasn't made the cut yet.

Anyway, the gen4 manual has (among many interesting little features like "Inching" meant for nudging forklifts around) a section on Drivability Profiles. Search the PDF for 291E for "speed limit ramp rates". This is mainly to avoid locking up the wheel but I think it works in a positive direction, too, especially if the setting is reduced sufficiently.

One would hope that these could be set up with the Sevcon DVT software so that one of Zero's modes could select it.
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rider7

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2017, 12:29:57 PM »

All good valid opinions here,

Just a quick compliment to everybody here on this forum.
I must make a huge compliment to everybody here on this forum.
Usually by the fourth or so reply, shit is flying through the air in an appalling way in other forums, unless it is a professional one.
This generally speaking doesn't happen here, at least since I have more recently joint this forum and in the threads I have visited.
It is delightful to see that it looks like that people who are interested in good, new concepts of transportation or others for that matter seem to have more brains and communication skills than the general social media addicted cell phone head down masses.
I love how all these different opinions are sitting here peacefully next to each other, and how we can have a really nice exchange about our preferences without ripping eachother's heads off.

Now this is a long post but written from my heart. I hope it resonates with some of you, because it touches the "real" reasons why I ride and will ride until I die or they only built fool proof bikes.

Now for electronic regulating systems.
Everything fails eventually and I for my part having grown up with only manual gear boxes, no power steering, no power windows, no AC, etc, etc.... must say that although all this automation is kind of, "wow... how nice is that" for a moment,
that every time I drive a car with traction control, I get a huge surge of general displeasure when it kicks in and my need to actually drive that damn thing is actually completely killed and I feel like I actually don't have the same responsibility anymore I thought I have negotiating a turn.
No that darn thing is doing it for me, the one thing that can go wrong, cannot go wrong anymore. Ahhhhh...... that is scary.

That's why it's called negotiating a turn, not I don't care, my bike will sort it out turn.
I tried turning the anti skid, anti slip, anti drift and anti drive systems all off to actually get a feel for the vehicle I am driving. Heck, no way, they manage to keep at least one anti somewhat in there and it feels even weirder and more alienating to what "driving" is supposed to feel like in the first place.
It makes driving no driving but "simply get there".

I remember when ABS came out, people were actually having accidents because they thought ABS meant having super brakes.

So two things.
There will be Teslas and the likes in about 10 years that will be economically not viable to repair anymore because of malfunctioning automatic ass wipe systems build in the seats.
They have blind spot warning systems now on cars. That must be for people that have a cervical spine injury and cannot clear their dead spot manually anymore.

And then they have..... oh wait these freaking things are supposed to drive us without our input all together.....ahhhhhhh....

I am a helicopter pilot instructor and evertime I flew by instruments (simulated conditions) or with aircraft that have autopilot, I started hating flying instantly.

I don't want to hate riding, because sooner or later you won't be able to turn the ass wiper off on your Zero either because of popular demand, so they can sell bikes with a torque curve that without proper training no one can handle and shouldn't.
 
If it keeps people from riding a powerful bike, sorry guys, that is just my, however questionable opinion, GOOD.

No one suggests to have a rider with minimal experience (less than 10 years of constant riding of different handable bikes) to go to a Ducati dealership and test ride or buy a 170 hp rocket either. So what are we discussing here?
I rode every single Ducati Model on their shop floor and the reason why I shelled out exactly the same money for a Zero R model is because it gave me the same fascinating "time machine effect" to have torque that is actually a game changer in someone's lifestyle.
Plus the overall smashing genius of a maintenance and noise free time machine.

But guys, the Zero R bikes are not for beginners. They don't need to be tamed for beginners.
They are too torquey (how do tiny spell that) and too expensive for people who don't have a lot of experience, and I mean a lot.
These are rockets and to be treated just like one.
 
There is a reason why I spent 33 years on bikes, winter (Germany) summer (Germany same shit weather hahaha).
I like having something left that not everybody can do without having to actually make some serious and very natural survival decisions.
If you take the rest risk (which in my opinion is 5-10%) out of flying or riding a motorcycle, I'll stay home, get fat and play stupid video games all day long.

Yes, you can die on a motorcycle more easily, but that is actually what I find extremely essential to make riding more attractive than driving in a car with 22 airbags.
There is something that somehow switches in a human being when everything is perceived to be safe.

There is a fine line at what point it is stupid to take unnecessary risks, like flying a helicopter or airplane that isn't airworthy (happens every single second while I am typing), but deciding to buy a Zero and having it packed full of stuff that actually make it not a Zero anymore but just another vehicle with 22 airbags.... NO.... please, I implore you.

Even that ABS makes me nervous, since it kills my instinct to having to negotiate the traction of my tires loaded up with braking forces.
I almost had an accident during my test ride of every single Zero model last year because that stupid ABS completely surprises me on a FXS and didn't give me the ability to actually utilize otherwise available traction because it was pretty sluggish to recover and give me the bike back as it should be. I got so pissed at the Bosch engineers in that moment.

I locked up my front ZRX-1200 three times already, (never happened really on my smaller bikes, only the rear of course) and every time my instinct did the right thing and let it come back up and be ok. And that bike has 490 lbs wet or so.

Proper rider training and for that matter driver training is not optional and there will never be an electronic system that can substitute the dangerous attitude that especially young riders and drivers will develop because these awesome systems save their asses pretty much everyday once they get used to it being there.

Automation generally can be dangerous when it forfeits actual skills that were never learned.

Now let me get into my onstar connected automated airbag full body suit and on my Bluetooth motion sensored, anti everything with step control, fart protection, fully anti slip and fun protected ultra future everybody simply hold on to my auto balanced, un crashable, quatrouple sensored, i effin.. phone app controlled wing suit twisted full force what the f..... is all that shit that keeps on giving me twenty thousand stupid control lights and status messages so I can not even see the road anymore bike.....

You all know I am kidding.

I hear everybody's opinion as a valid opinion and accept it.
I don't have to agree, but there is a very true, very powerful essence of keeping us people connected with our visceral senses to what we are actually doing and you cannot have 100% safety and expect the same experience from it.

It will be castrated fun, Disney Land fun, not the fun that I am looking for when I am getting on my bike every day to actually experience some of the essential things of life.

And yes, every time I pull the collective and push the cyclic forward to take off in a helicopter I am 100 % in control of what the aircraft is doing, no computer is helping me and that is how I like it, and that is how I like my Zero to be.
And so far, I have not been disappointed.
That is actually why I shelled out the extra money to get the extra brunt and I keep it on "custom" cranked up everhing all the time.

All ABS, slip slide and stupid control aside, at the end of the day I am responsible to get off this thing alive or not and I LOVE that element of riding my Electric Lady.
I call her a "Sleek Cat on Drugs"

Honestly, I cannot wait to see the even more powerful and ravaging versions coming out, I won't be able to afford it, but I like those choices in our lives.

Please don't script it away with code for a, in my eyes, false sense of control.

I rode 178, 200, 500, 600, 750 and 1200 bikes for decades and took cornering classss (Keith Code's superbike school) before I was ready to drag my knees and to slide out of turns under power on dry asphalt without braking a sweat but with a huge grin on my face.
You cannot have it both ways. You cannot have your cake and eat it too:)

My advice.
We should follow the same principle that has worked for decades.
If one isn't ready for a liter bike, don't buy one.
And believe me, almost no one is ready for a liter bike and actually be able to ride it properly.
A Zero that has an R in it is a liter bike.

Please don't castrate my Cat  ::)

Rider7
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32 years of almost every day riding all year round.

rider7

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2017, 12:53:38 PM »

Brian,
Thanks for getting a bit into the details and intricacies of the issues of traction control development on the Zeros.

Your issues are music in my ears.
Will the force never be with you and your engineering colleagues at Zero to accomplish that task.

Ref. to my long ass post arguing that traction control would be killing my cat   ;D ;D

Hahahah...

Rider7
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MostlyBonkers

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2017, 03:01:31 PM »

Thanks Brian. It's easy to assume that traction control is a fairly straightforward feature to implement, especially on an electric bike.
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MostlyBonkers

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Too much torque??
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2017, 03:12:21 PM »

Just another thought: Of all the electric bikes you might expect to have traction control, the Lightning LS218 would be the ideal candidate. It doesn't have it and yet the BMW C evolution scooter does, I believe.  No doubt the scooter benefits from the development money thrown at the cars.
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grmarks

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Re: Too much torque??
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2017, 06:23:35 PM »

For my 2c worth, I love the fact that the SR does NOT have traction control. If it ever gets it then I want to be able to turn it off completely.
If an SR it too powerful for you buy an S, or use the app to set custom mode to power levels you can handle (turn the torque down so it cant break traction). 
For me I ride 100% in custom with everything to the max except regen which is set to about 30% on throttle off and 100% with brakes on.
On wet days I just don't turn the throttle so much, its called skill, not that I am that skillful like a lot of riders, but I have a bit and its enough to handle the SR's power. I have had it break traction on wet days a couple of times, a bit of a wiggle, power back, then keep going. I love knowing I have power. I think I would love the new 2017 SR even more than mine.
Having said all this I ride my SR very conservatively most of the time, but now and a gain I like to flex its muscles. 
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