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Author Topic: Is 16 AWG for charging ok in the long run?  (Read 2374 times)

rider7

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Is 16 AWG for charging ok in the long run?
« on: February 13, 2017, 02:34:21 AM »

All,

I want to install the Ryobi garage door opener modular system.
https://www.ryobitools.com/gdo/

Zero's charge cord is a 14 gauge wire cord 12 or 15ft (I forgot), the Ryobi is 16 gauge and 30 ft.
And has an indicator light on its end which I have read somewhere (zeromanual.com maybe?) that it shouldn't have one.

I can replace the cord maybe with a thicker and shorter one, but don't necessarily want to, since I obviously want to use it for working in the garage as well.

Does anybody have experience with a 16 gauge and 30 ft in the long run?

I charged the bike with a 16 gauge extension about 15-20 ft. the first couple of times, the plugs where they connected got pretty warm, the smaller cord itself a little bit.

I know that length is not factoring in as much as wire thickness up to a certain point (quite a long cable)

How do you judge the long term usability of using smaller gauge wire than what Zero gave with the bike?
16 gauge is borderline rated for 13 Amps approximately.

Rider7
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 02:36:04 AM by rider7 »
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Erasmo

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Re: Is 16 AWG for charging ok in the long run?
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2017, 03:50:38 AM »

You should be able to calculate the resistance of both cords, I'm on my phone right now and can't type up the formula but with some Google Fu you should be able to find a handy dandy webtool that does all the hard work for you.
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BrianTRice@gmail.com

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Re: Is 16 AWG for charging ok in the long run?
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2017, 04:52:28 AM »

This seems like a reasonable tool: http://www.cirris.com/learning-center/calculators/133-wire-resistance-calculator-table

I don't think the wiki says anything about extension cables with lights. I use a generous 20ft 12AWG extension cable with three outlets so I can run a battery tender to my gas bike and a very short (6ft?) 14AWG charger cable to a Zero. But my garage has only one outlet so I'm being thrifty.

The main thing is that the cable is in series with the bike, so resistance per foot times the number of feet yields a total cable resistance, and then the bike will have a lower voltage to draw its power from, and might draw more current as a result, resulting in more heating.

The borderline rating is probably not a good idea considering how often you'll have it near that rating. I recommend a thicker/lower gauge.
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Richard230

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Re: Is 16 AWG for charging ok in the long run?
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2017, 05:26:45 AM »

My solution is to feel both ends of the extension cord after about 30 minutes of charging and if they are nice and hot, it is time to buy a heavier cord.   ;)
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rider7

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Re: Is 16 AWG for charging ok in the long run?
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2017, 09:21:22 AM »

Hey guys,

as always, thanks for your input.
Today I noticed that the entire zero cable was actually nice and warm and much more pliable to put back into the swingarm:)

Well, I'll do some calculations then, but might als just go rogue, up my home owners insurance and let my electric lady suck electrons till the garage is on fire hahahahahha.
Just like you suggested Richard230  ;D ;D

I want to push my newly found Jetsons life style a bit more and simply park, reach up and pull the tank hose down.... is that too much to ask in this day and age  8)

Well, AWG 16 is rated for 13 Amps when you look at the right charts.

I guess if the Ryobi cord coil is dripping soft plastic on my zero it has too much resistance.

Ok, no seriously now, I'll research a bit more first.

I will do some calculations too Erasmo.

And BrianT,
I'll try finding where I read the indicator light thing. I don't believe it myself, since especially on heavy duty cables for construction, you see the live wire indicator lights all the time.

I have to say one thing though.
I am surprised that not all of you screamed at me and precisely told me what gauge is minimally necessary from your years of charging experience :)

Rider7
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BrianTRice@gmail.com

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Re: Is 16 AWG for charging ok in the long run?
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2017, 10:00:02 AM »

16AWG isn't terrible. It just probably won't last long. I've used one in a pinch from a server room spare cable box at work. But yes it did get disturbingly warm despite being short.

One way you can use a thinner cord of course is to use a 220V outlet if one is handy, since the current would be only 7A. Just a thought.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 03:01:20 PM by BrianTRice »
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rider7

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Re: Is 16 AWG for charging ok in the long run?
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2017, 12:37:34 PM »

16AWG isn't terrible. It just probably won't last long. I've used one in a pinch from a server room spare cable box at work. But yes it did get disturbingly warm despite being short.

One way you can use a thinner cord of course is to use a 220V outlet if one is handy, since the current would be only 7V. Just a thought.

Brian,
I always feel the plug socket connection on the bike itself, because that is what I am concerned with the most to develop higher resistance due to constant plug and unplugging.

I could run my dryer outlet that I am even using for my three phase lathe (I run an 10 gauge  SOOW cord out there)
In order to have my "Jetsons Setup" I'd have to run an SOOW cord (which is illegal that long as a permanent installation) or lay conduit from my laundry room to the top of the garage. I'd splice in parallel with a junction box and use that as my main 220-240 outlet even for the lathe.
That is actually not a bad idea.
I don't own a dryer anyway.
I like higher voltage and lower current anyway.

Thanks for jump starting my mind :)
Rider7
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KrazyEd

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Re: Is 16 AWG for charging ok in the long run?
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2017, 10:50:45 PM »

If ease of operation is your main goal, try something like this.

https://www.pluglesspower.com/shop/

Pricey but can't get any easier once installed
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rider7

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Re: Is 16 AWG for charging ok in the long run?
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2017, 08:56:01 AM »

If ease of operation is your main goal, try something like this.

https://www.pluglesspower.com/shop/

Pricey but can't get any easier once installed

Hahah..Ed, this is amazing, so you're saying it can get any more Jetsons like that, huh?

I do kind of like plugging it in like a toaster though. But ask me after a couple of years :)

I'll keep my eyes open to see when they have built one for Zeros.

Thanks

Rider7
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KrazyEd

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Re: Is 16 AWG for charging ok in the long run?
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2017, 10:56:50 AM »

I have a 7.2 KW charger for my Focus already, so no need for anything more at this time.
Have to see how I feel once my Model 3s arrive. I am sure that it is somehow connected
to the vehicle then just begins to charge once it is in place. Even with the charge tank,
the lowest power unit they offer would be plenty. Of course, if I were going to spend that
kind of money, I would be talking with Brandon instead.
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Erasmo

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Re: Is 16 AWG for charging ok in the long run?
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2017, 04:24:31 PM »

Today I noticed that the entire zero cable was actually nice and warm and much more pliable to put back into the swingarm:)
That's a sign that your cable can't handle the current, get a beefier one and don't wait too long. I'm not stateside but I hear that Monoprice has good no-nonsense cables.

16AWG isn't terrible. It just probably won't last long. I've used one in a pinch from a server room spare cable box at work. But yes it did get disturbingly warm despite being short.

One way you can use a thinner cord of course is to use a 220V outlet if one is handy, since the current would be only 7A. Just a thought.
Those are rated for 10A I assume? I would also only recommend that for emergency charging if you're on 110V, on 230V they're fine.
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Richard230

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Re: Is 16 AWG for charging ok in the long run?
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2017, 09:02:40 PM »

I have a 7.2 KW charger for my Focus already, so no need for anything more at this time.
Have to see how I feel once my Model 3s arrive. I am sure that it is somehow connected
to the vehicle then just begins to charge once it is in place. Even with the charge tank,
the lowest power unit they offer would be plenty. Of course, if I were going to spend that
kind of money, I would be talking with Brandon instead.

Speaking of the Model 3, I just saw a Bolt yesterday as it passed me on my ride out of town. It was moving about 10 mph over the speed limit. Chevy didn't waste any time getting those things into the market.
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Biff

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Re: Is 16 AWG for charging ok in the long run?
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2017, 11:44:41 PM »

I would not use a #16 extension cord at 13Amps if it is all coiled up in that auto-retractor system.  When it is laying flat it can get rid of more heat.  10hours of running at 13A could really increase the heat of that cord if it is mostly still inside the coil. If it is laying flat with good air-flow I suspect it would be ok, but still I would check connector temperature at both ends the first few times I used it, just to be sure the connections inside the plugs are sufficient.

At 220V, 6.5A, I think it would be fine.

-ryan
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MrDude_1

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Re: Is 16 AWG for charging ok in the long run?
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2017, 11:55:40 PM »

biff beat me as I went to reply... he just said exactly what I was going to say...

running a full charge through a 16ga cable stretched across the room, it will get very warm, but not melt.
take that same cable and wrap it up in a coil, and it might... stick that coil in a box and wait hours and it will not last long.

you will ruin your nice retractable cable if you do it. either get a bigger gauge retractable spool, or just hang a cord.

slightly related to that.. if that opener has its motor and the zero on the same circuit, it might pop the breaker if the zero is pulling full power when the opener tries to open the door.
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rider7

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Re: Is 16 AWG for charging ok in the long run?
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2017, 01:12:47 PM »

Ahaaa..... as always thanks for the inputs  :D

Erasmo, that warm cable was the 14 gauge zero supplied cable. I was surprised myself since it wasn't even charging from very low SOC.
Usually only the ends get warmish...  maybe the little electrons had a party in there this time :)

Everybody else, yes, I agree, 16 gauge coiled up will make my coil melt in the long run.

And also MrDude1, you're right, while my Cat is charging, there is no escaping through that garage door anymore  :D

I'll look into simply running an extra conduit with gauge 10 or 12 wires like I run for most machines in the shop and be done with it on 240 V.
Although, I got to look into this once more. I know dryers and stoves run tab to tab 240 like it comes from the pole, but that is technically two phase power.
I am only used to dealing with three phase and single phase (120V to neutral)

So the zero is usually taking one hot leg from the 240 incoming and returning on neutral like every other load in the house.
When you're using tab to tab, you then use the full potential that comes from the pole, but that now is 60 Hz 120 VAC on each leg.
Wouldn't that make it two phase 240.

Got to read a book about that real quick again.
Don't want to fry my Cat  :o
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