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Author Topic: DC-DC charger  (Read 1584 times)

BrianTRice

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Re: DC-DC charger
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2017, 06:14:59 AM »

I've translated much of these remarks for the relevant wiki section: http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Zero_Aftermarket#DC
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yhafting

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Re: DC-DC charger
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2017, 02:40:35 AM »

yhafting, I have been to Norway a lot and you have one of the best charging infrastructures. Mennekes everywhere and DC is also rolling out.
If the SC might not be the thing for you, why not go for the official Zero auxiliary charger? It is still far from 1C but you practically double your charging speed.
The main reason for not selecting oem solution is that it is high cost and low efficiency. I was pondering on a ccs solution because i believe a dc/dc conversion could be made cheaper than ac conversion. But it will always boil down to availability of components.

I know we have good charging infrastructure in Norway. In fact enough that i could manage with a pure ccs solution (in addition to the onboard charger), however an ac/dc conversion is more versatile if it can be made adjustable.

The cheapest option right now seems to be buying second hand telecom equipment, which probably is over specced for the task.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 02:43:18 AM by yhafting »
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Erasmo

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Re: DC-DC charger
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2017, 03:10:53 AM »

A DC/DC converter might be cheaper indeed, but the venom is in the plug. ChaDeMo aftermarket isn't that hard to implement since it is simple CAN-bus, you can buy kits to install in your EV. VW even used an aftermarket ChaDeMo when testing the E-Golf.

As far as I know there aren't third parties yet where you can buy kits for CCS but if you take the ChaDeMo one as guideline you'd spend around €1000, and that's for the plug and comms module alone.
Mennekes is much easier and cheaper, and to be honest for a Zero it doesn't matter that much because you can 1C it on a regular 3-phase charging station which you find on about every streetcorner in Norway. So at this point the only thing that a DC/DC setup could have going for it would be if it weighed significantly less.
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anton

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Re: DC-DC charger
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2017, 11:32:50 AM »

We are also building SC based DC fast chargers for Zeros ;)
As in, new "SC v3" hardware or a completely new control box?
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Electric Cowboy

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Re: DC-DC charger
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2017, 12:01:31 PM »

We are also building SC based DC fast chargers for Zeros ;)
As in, new "SC v3" hardware or a completely new control box?

Actualy, it works as is ;) it's built into your charge control box too.  If using your Super Charger (v2!!) as an offboard DC station, I just reccomend you plug it into the bike while the bike is off and the contactor is open. So far all the testing even with the contactor is open and the bike is on has been perfect, however, there is still more testing to do to ensure the charge control unit code safley handles full 1C stack connect and disconnect safely at any time. But looking good so far.
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cheesymac47

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Re: DC-DC charger
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2017, 08:31:29 PM »

We are also building SC based DC fast chargers for Zeros ;)
As in, new "SC v3" hardware or a completely new control box?

Actualy, it works as is ;) it's built into your charge control box too.  If using your Super Charger (v2!!) as an offboard DC station, I just reccomend you plug it into the bike while the bike is off and the contactor is open.

Ah, of course. The spec page said 85-265v with no indication of what type because it doesn't matter. The answer was there the whole time. And with most charging infrastructure able to handle 250vDC, and a lesser amount even down to 200vDC, the SC2 simply works with most configurations, and with some time and effort, potentially more later.

Bravo! A truly extendable option.

Now this plus Terry's idea of side mounted batteries...*evil grin*

I think I need to learn to weld and work with fiberglass.




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Electric Cowboy

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Re: DC-DC charger
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2017, 12:18:22 AM »

You misunderstand. These are supercharger based DC fast chargers for zeros.

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cheesymac47

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Re: DC-DC charger
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2017, 12:55:34 AM »

You misunderstand. These are supercharger based DC fast chargers for zeros.

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Perhaps?

I thought the thread question was how to get voltage reduced to what a Zero could take in, noting the difficulties prior with non standard CHAdeMO. Your answer to that is the SCv2 as the SCv2's upper bound works at a level compatible with most DC charging infrastructure, as well as consumer level AC, in most cases with the appropriate cabling.

And, drawing off of the modular design, that things that aren't possible with it yet might yet be possible by adding "to be developed" bits as additional modules?

I was admitting a misread on the spec page for me (and possibly others, but definitely me) where I saw a voltage range that covered the standard 120/240 operating ranges (and obviously then some) and immediately filed it as an AC spec, not understanding it was DC, and figuring out how much this does change the game.

Or am I assuming incorrectly this was directed to me?


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Electric Cowboy

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Re: DC-DC charger
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2017, 01:07:02 AM »

Yeah, you got it. Though, in one of my earlier posts, you'll notice the difficulty of faking out a DC charger without the battery as load since they operate on voltage rise.

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Lenny

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Re: DC-DC charger
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2017, 03:20:25 AM »

I would recommend against a simple rectifier solution. The zero contactor will open in a slew of situations. When this happens, depending on your charge rate you will get a small arc which raises your voltage a lot. And if that voltage spike goes over say 144v several internal components of your controller will explode. This is true no matter where your rectifiers are connected, aux or controller.

I honestly this the IP67 solution we have is a lot cheaper than the dangers of trying to hobby this kind of charging on a 15k motorcycle. I mean the SC is built to charge your bike safely in a tsunami basically...

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Electric Cowboy, could you explain to me how your SC V2 avoids the problem of the voltage spike? You also rely on the controller connection or the aux charging port don't you? So how can the SC V2 avoid such a voltage spike if the connector opens for whatever reason?

Thanks.
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Electric Cowboy

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Re: DC-DC charger
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2017, 03:37:22 AM »

I would recommend against a simple rectifier solution. The zero contactor will open in a slew of situations. When this happens, depending on your charge rate you will get a small arc which raises your voltage a lot. And if that voltage spike goes over say 144v several internal components of your controller will explode. This is true no matter where your rectifiers are connected, aux or controller.

I honestly this the IP67 solution we have is a lot cheaper than the dangers of trying to hobby this kind of charging on a 15k motorcycle. I mean the SC is built to charge your bike safely in a tsunami basically...

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Electric Cowboy, could you explain to me how your SC V2 avoids the problem of the voltage spike? You also rely on the controller connection or the aux charging port don't you? So how can the SC V2 avoid such a voltage spike if the connector opens for whatever reason?

Thanks.
The voltage spike on most chargers will come for a variety of reasons, however the spike climbs dramatically as you continue to put current across the line. Detecting the spike fast enough while it is happening allows you to reduce power output to prevent the spike from climbing too high. That's the short version and the most important part.

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MrDude_1

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Re: DC-DC charger
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2017, 08:58:11 PM »

I would recommend against a simple rectifier solution. The zero contactor will open in a slew of situations. When this happens, depending on your charge rate you will get a small arc which raises your voltage a lot. And if that voltage spike goes over say 144v several internal components of your controller will explode. This is true no matter where your rectifiers are connected, aux or controller.

I honestly this the IP67 solution we have is a lot cheaper than the dangers of trying to hobby this kind of charging on a 15k motorcycle. I mean the SC is built to charge your bike safely in a tsunami basically...

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Electric Cowboy, could you explain to me how your SC V2 avoids the problem of the voltage spike? You also rely on the controller connection or the aux charging port don't you? So how can the SC V2 avoid such a voltage spike if the connector opens for whatever reason?

Thanks.
The voltage spike on most chargers will come for a variety of reasons, however the spike climbs dramatically as you continue to put current across the line. Detecting the spike fast enough while it is happening allows you to reduce power output to prevent the spike from climbing too high. That's the short version and the most important part.

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Wouldnt a varistor based solution be more reliable as a fail-safe?
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Electric Cowboy

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Re: DC-DC charger
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2017, 10:28:33 PM »

That's just the short version of it. But fast controls are probably the biggest part of a contactor open. As without them, things will blow up pretty quickly. Then again, that could be the software engineer in me saying that :D

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Lenny

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Re: DC-DC charger
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2017, 12:25:53 AM »

I would recommend against a simple rectifier solution. The zero contactor will open in a slew of situations. When this happens, depending on your charge rate you will get a small arc which raises your voltage a lot. And if that voltage spike goes over say 144v several internal components of your controller will explode. This is true no matter where your rectifiers are connected, aux or controller.

I honestly this the IP67 solution we have is a lot cheaper than the dangers of trying to hobby this kind of charging on a 15k motorcycle. I mean the SC is built to charge your bike safely in a tsunami basically...

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Electric Cowboy, could you explain to me how your SC V2 avoids the problem of the voltage spike? You also rely on the controller connection or the aux charging port don't you? So how can the SC V2 avoid such a voltage spike if the connector opens for whatever reason?

Thanks.
The voltage spike on most chargers will come for a variety of reasons, however the spike climbs dramatically as you continue to put current across the line. Detecting the spike fast enough while it is happening allows you to reduce power output to prevent the spike from climbing too high. That's the short version and the most important part.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

I've done a little investigation on that and contacted Eltek with my questions. Seems like the Flatpack is pretty stable and fast. For a 90-10% load drop they propose max +5% which is regulated in less than 50ms according to the spec sheet, which I attached. Nevertheless I asked them about 100-0% measurements which they provided to me. If I understand the scaling of the diagram correctly, the spike is actually way lower than 5%, namely less than 1V. (one square equals 1V in the diagram according to the description). This would mean that a series of two flatpacks would spike up to ~116V when programmed to 114 (57V each), which seems pretty good. Additionally they mentioned, that values will look even way better if there's a little load remaining (50W), which would be the light bulbs if you charge with key on. What do you think?

And don't get me wrong ElectricCowboy, I appreciate your products and what you are doing for the Zero Community, that's really great. But nevertheless some of us like tinkering ;-) And in my case, I simply can't afford anything else than used flatpacks at the moment. Although, obviously a damage to the bike due to a flatpack might be way more expensive than your supercharger ;-)
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Zero FXS 6.5 MY16
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Electric Cowboy

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Re: DC-DC charger
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2017, 05:32:16 AM »

Don't forget the inrush to your DC side caps. Depending how many you string together if you connect with the contactor closed, you will blow your charge fuse. Learned that one the hard way with the original betas I built from meanwells.

Speaking of, I have a bunch of them laying around with no good use anymore.

Also if your charge fuse does blow while exploring and tinkering, it is usually on the right side of the bike near the battery. It's a huge inline fuse. A bitch to get out because of the adhesive heat shrink, but the wires have ring terminals once you get the fuse out so you could wire in a fuse breaker. Or if in a pinch just bolt them together.

I'm all for people tinkering. I just know my expositions cost me a lot of money in learning expenses. Hope this helps you avoid some of the things I learned first hand.

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