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Author Topic: Is my battery deteriorating ?  (Read 692 times)

ChainGun

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Is my battery deteriorating ?
« on: February 06, 2017, 05:13:21 PM »

Hi all.
I bought a brand new Zero S on October 2015 and rode it some 24K kilometers. In recent weeks, I feel that the capacity is deteriorating, traveling to work and back used to leave me with some 30% capacity (ZF9.4, 74 KM round trip) and now 15-18% is more common. Is there any way I can check what is the current state of battery capacity and whether I have a real problem or not?
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Justin Andrews

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Re: Is my battery deteriorating ?
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2017, 05:28:28 PM »

Probably not, it takes years for the battery to start degrading.

Likely culprits are drops in temperature, or changes in riding habits.

While with the first the cold can drain batteries faster as low temps increase internal resistance in the battery.
I lose up to around 8% range when it's winter and the temps are hovering around 1-2C.

I sometimes get worried my battery is losing range in the winter, but it always comes back in spring. ;)
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Zero 2015 SR (+PT);
Yamaha Diversion 900

dukecola

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Re: Is my battery deteriorating ?
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2017, 12:26:14 AM »

Batteries do degrade.  The OP says he's ridden 25km's so I think he knows about cold weather and driving style impacts on range.  My 2012 Volt's battery has degraded by 25% in 5 yrs.  Can't do the same trips I use to, even commute range is less.  No, it's not the winter, no it's not the tires, no I'm not going faster, same trip less range. It's the batteries, plain and simple.
Probably not, it takes years for the battery to start degrading.

Likely culprits are drops in temperature, or changes in riding habits.

While with the first the cold can drain batteries faster as low temps increase internal resistance in the battery.
I lose up to around 8% range when it's winter and the temps are hovering around 1-2C.

I sometimes get worried my battery is losing range in the winter, but it always comes back in spring. ;)
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Doug S

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Re: Is my battery deteriorating ?
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2017, 12:43:51 AM »

Of course batteries can degrade. The Nissan Leaf is notorious for it...it seems like Nissan did a fairly poor design job on their battery pack. I don't know if the Volt has enough fleet miles and/or age for statistically valid analysis, but it could be subject to the some of the same problems the Leaf has.

Anecdotal evidence isn't very helpful. The capacity of the original battery on my bike (as measured by SoC when I arrive home after my daily round-trip commute) actually rose somewhat during the 25,000+ miles it was in service. I believe Terry's had a similar experience, and he's got far more miles on his bike than anybody else does. It seems to me the quality of the engineering that goes into the battery pack, including picking the right cell as well as decisions about charging/discharging envelopes, is pretty important where battery life is concerned.
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There's no better alarm clock than sunlight on asphalt.

domingo3

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Re: Is my battery deteriorating ?
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2017, 12:47:35 AM »

  Temperature was my first guess as well.  Is it cold where you are riding, and would you have noticed a temperature effect last winter when the bike was still new to you? 
  The battery's 5 year/160000 km warranty covers degradation of greater than 20%.  In the warranty it states "To check the capacity of a Power Pack, an authorized Zero dealer can perform a battery management system log data extraction, which will confirm if a reduction is within expected norms."  Why not send the logs to your dealer and ask if you have a warranty claim?
  Folks on the forums here are working on parsing the BMS logs, but there is still more to be done. 
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johnphillips390

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Re: Is my battery deteriorating ?
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2017, 12:19:08 PM »

For what its worth, my 2015 SR has done 14k kms with no discernible degradation and my 2012 Volt has done 50k kms and has the same capacity and range as the day I bought it. Both vehicles though lose between 10 and 15% of their range during the winter months


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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2013 E-Rider Lightning EV Scooter
2015 Zero SR

ChainGun

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Re: Is my battery deteriorating ?
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2017, 01:58:44 PM »

Likely culprits are drops in temperature, or changes in riding habits.

My bike heard you, during today's ride the usage dropped to levels I'm used to. Seriously, it's probably the weather. People don't think "cold" when they think "Israel" but we have our share of cold weeks now and then and the last couple of days were warmer, immediately impacting the efficiency. Thanks!
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Justin Andrews

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Re: Is my battery deteriorating ?
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2017, 04:11:22 PM »

Glad it appears to be the temps.

However, if you ever suspect your battery is degrading, then you can use either, a cable, or a Diginow dongle, to check.
At the end of a ride, connect to your bike, and call up the BMS status from the menu, it'll list all the Cell / string voltages. Do it a few times over a number of rides, and if your battery is degrading, you'll probably spot a single string of cells is under performing. If so, then its time to call your dealer and talk about the batteries 5 yr warranty ;)

I've chatted to LEAF owners on this subject, something that they are doing is to find the weak cell, and get *just* that cell replaced, its far cheaper, and more effective than replacing the whole battery. I know thats harder on a Zero, but it shows that a complete battery replacement is not going to be a thing with electrics, but more a case of replacing parts of the battery instead. After all, you don't replace the entire engine of a car if the spark plug is weak... ;)
« Last Edit: February 08, 2017, 04:15:04 PM by Justin Andrews »
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Zero 2015 SR (+PT);
Yamaha Diversion 900

Delnari

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Re: Is my battery deteriorating ?
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2017, 11:37:30 PM »

Other mechanical items can affect ranges as well, wheel bearings, tire condition, aero/weight changes can all change your range.
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ChainGun

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Re: Is my battery deteriorating ?
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2017, 01:34:49 PM »

...aero/weight changes can all change your range.

Did you just call me fat?!  ;)
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mguw

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Re: Is my battery deteriorating ?
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2017, 03:21:09 PM »

Likely culprits are drops in temperature, or changes in riding habits.

My bike heard you, during today's ride the usage dropped to levels I'm used to. Seriously, it's probably the weather. People don't think "cold" when they think "Israel" but we have our share of cold weeks now and then and the last couple of days were warmer, immediately impacting the efficiency. Thanks!
Might also be longer inactivity before that shorter range.

I recovered my fx after 3 weeks vacation (connected to the plug)  and first ride after was so short I didn't make it to my work at 30km!
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MajorMajor

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Re: Is my battery deteriorating ?
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2017, 05:56:36 PM »

 You're not the first forum member to report that the battery was not kept at full charge while it was plugged in for a long time.
Another member had his Zero plugged in for a few months and the SoC went down to 0%.

Edit:
Title: 2015 DS Battery completely depleted after few months not used, but plugged
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6577.0

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Justin Andrews

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Re: Is my battery deteriorating ?
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2017, 03:12:39 PM »

Another good reason you might get reduced range. Obvious but bears mentioning.

I'd noticed myself that my range had taken a hit over the end of last week, got off my bike today and checked, yup, I've got a slow puncture on my rear tyre... ;)
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Zero 2015 SR (+PT);
Yamaha Diversion 900
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