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[bikerscooby]

I do hate that they lie about the range in their advertising and from their salespeople, and wish they would stop doing that.  In 2016, I was told (in the same breath) that the base SR is "super fast, with great acceleration, and gets at least 100 miles per charge" (at Hollywood Electrics they told me this), when later I found out that the range is actually about 65 miles if you go super fast with great acceleration; you can only get 100 miles if you use ECO mode and keep your speed below 60mph.  And now in 2017 they are claiming 200 miles per charge if you get the extra battery... I bet that is also quite a stretch from reality.

Anyway, my 2016 SR is my primary vehicle and I love it, but making false claims does nobody any good.

[Adan]

I'm not sure what could be confusing about the range claims.  They give you figures for "city," "highway at 55," "highway at 70," and "combined."  All are quite accurate as far as I can tell.

If you're saying the falsehood was in something a salesperson said to you, well, that's a different story.  My advice to you would be to take anything a salesperson says with a pound of salt.

There's a certain amount of due diligence anyone should do before shopping for an EV.  The fact that range and speed are inversely related is easy to discover.

But the important thing is, your Zero works for you!

[Doug S]

I do hate that they lie about the range in their advertising and from their salespeople, and wish they would stop doing that....Anyway, my 2016 SR is my primary vehicle and I love it, but making false claims does nobody any good.

Years and years ago, in the fledgling days of computers, 1kB meant 1024 (which is a very convenient power of two), and 1MB meant 1024 * 1024, or 1,048,576 bytes. You'd buy a 20MB hard drive (I know, it seems ridiculous now, doesn't it?) and it would actually be able to contain 20,971,520 bytes of data.

But then some bright marketing boi pointed out that his company's "80 megabyte" hard drive could actually hold 83.886 million bytes, and the metric prefix "mega" actually means a million, not 1024^2, so referring to it as an "83.8 megabyte" drive would be nonstandard, but not actually untrue, and would make that company's drives look a little better than the competition's. Of course, that was only true for about a week, until the other companies adopted the "new standard" and everybody's drives looked the same again.

Similarly, when solar panels first came out, they were rated by their actual output capability, but another bright marketing boi noticed that the ratings weren't regulated, so if he took the very highest voltage the panel can put out (no-load or "open-circuit" voltage) and multiplied it by the current the panel produces into a short circuit, he'd get a higher number that makes his product look better than the competition's -- never mind the fact that the panel has no shot in hell of ever actually producing that voltage and current at the same time. Again, it made his product look better for about a week, now everybody's panels are rated the same...if you don't rate your panels that way, your product looks inferior just because your marketing team is honest.

EVs are the same way. For my 2014 SR, they took the very highest open-circuit voltage the battery pack puts out, 114V, and multiplied it by its nominal Ah capacity, 100 Ah, to give it its 11.4 kWh rating. But we all know the battery voltage drops considerably the instant you apply any load, drops even more as the battery discharges, and some of the capacity is reserved by the manufacturer to avoid damaging the battery by discharging it very low. The upshot is the usable capacity is realistically more like 10 kWh, but again, if you rate it realistically, your EV will look inferior to another company's, even though they're exactly the same. One marketing person tried to game the system and now everybody has to lie.

It's easy to get on any manufacturer for exaggerating their range performance, because they all do it. They all do it because they HAVE to do it. If they don't lie like everyone else does, people will think their product is inferior, even if it as good or better than the others.

[JaimeC]

Hey, I've been riding long enough to remember when manufacturers used to hire Pee Wee Gleason to do their quarter mile testing.  The guy weighs MAYBE 100 lbs in soaking wet leather and was a professional motorcycle drag racer.  Normal mortals didn't have a prayer in HELL of matching those quarter mile times but those were the ones advertised by just about EVERY manufacturer.

Some things NEVER change.

[rider7]

Zen,

100 agreed, this is a great forum.

Let's keep it going.
Thanks to all the old timer members here too who keep on engaging.



Adan,
I had a hunch that penetrantic doesn't exist in English. It does in German. It is spelled penetrantisch ...... oh no... I just checked. I butchered pedantisch with penetrant. Both legit German words. I swear we use it, when we want to tell someone to be less of a bean counter.
Shame on me, but it sounded so good for what I wanted it to mean.
It should have expressed a bean counter mentality and is clearly the English word pedantic.

Well, I put that in there to find out who actually reads long posts like this 

The cool thing I got accustomed to living here in the states for 20 years now, if you use a word, any word for that matter, real or not more than 20 times, it sort of gets assimilated into a table of possible linguistic alternatives, and over a decade becomes a word.

Unthinkable in a way more rigid society like Germany.
We have rules for language that are unshakable. At least we used to when I grew up there.

So, here I am working on it penetrantically getting it assimilated )

Rider7

[MostlyBonkers]

I've found this topic interesting, so thanks to the OP for taking an interest.

Whilst reading the positive things that people say about their Zeros, it's worth keeping in mind that those comments have been hard won.  Many of the regulars on this forum are a tough crowd. We are a long way from teenage groupies at a rock concert.  Many people here have or have retired from a career in engineering or IT. They are used to analysing, getting to the bottom of things and cutting through the BS. They are not going to spend their hard earned money on a bad product.

Take my experience with Zero, for example. I had my first test ride in 2013. I seriously considered getting a Zero then, but I couldn't justify the cost.  I joined this forum and have been quite active. I wanted to know everything about Zeros. Some might say I became rather obsessive! I also didn't mind asking difficult questions. I'd write about how the motors overheat and use a test ride to qualify my experience. One topic I started got so heated I asked the forum's admin to delete it.

To cut a long story short, I got the opportunity to buy a Zero last year. It's a 2014 DS, so not exactly the latest and greatest. I bought it and haven't been disappointed.  Sure, I'll have a moan if something goes wrong, but overall I've had a very pleasurable commute into London every day for the past year. It has been a joy to ride and very reliable. That's through lots of rain and cold weather.

We are a hard crowd to please so I think you can be assured that there's credit where it's due.  I picked at every problem I could find and yet I bought a Zero and I'm happy I did. The community here has been very honest with me and issues have been discussed openly.

No product is perfect and in such a niche market there just isn't the money that goes into the development of cars. Despite this, Zero have a great product that well informed people are willing to buy. That's no mean feat.

It takes a long time for people, especially bikers, to get their heads around new technology. Their initial reaction is to take the Mickey.  There are many thousands of commuters out there that would benefit from riding a Zero. They'll wake up to them eventually. Perhaps when the price drops to the point when they cost the same as an equivalent ICE bike and the running costs are the icing on top.

[Richard230]

It has been my observation, from my own experience and from reading forum members' comments, that Zero has designed an excellent vehicle.  I think most, if not all, reliability issues encountered by Zero owners have likely been the result of assembly errors at the factory.  The bike's electronics are pretty complicated and it doesn't take much of an error to result in a "glitch" if a male connector wasn't properly plugged into it female counterpart and a pin got bent or not quite connected tightly. Also, the method of waterproofing is somewhat dependent upon the skill of the person applying it and a mistake there could result in problems in the future. 

But these sort of assembly errors can pop up in any device, even a well-engineered one.  It is just a matter of training the assembly-line workers better and to hire people who will take care to perform the job properly after doing so a few hundred times. Not everyone has the kind of temperament to do assembly-line work though, I know that I don't. 

[NEW2elec]

The crimping and weatherproofing I'm sure are all human but I saw a factory video showing their driver unit, really nice.  Basically there is an order to all the threaded fasteners  and it automatically changes the torque value for each "screw".  Seems to really speed up the process.

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

I just noticed these comments. I guess I should say something.

One other quick point:  The very first thing our marketing director noted was the abject failure of Zero to utilize even the most basic marketing efforts.  For example, both this forum and the Facebook page have no actual company presence.  I can't emphasize enough how basic a failure that is.

Here's one more quickie:  Many of you, as advocates, seem to have done more to advance the consumer understanding of this product.  There's one person in particular that our group noted and we are at a loss to determine why, after years of pushing their product, Zero hasn't hired BrianTRice...

I'm really not excited most days to speak up that way, and do wish the company would speak up for itself more broadly. Mainly, I want electric motorcycles to be normal, reliable, and viable for travel, and the Zero platform for better or worse is the most likely to provide that. You Meet The Nicest People On A Honda, fifty years later.

I do get irritated with unfounded claims or needless/insulting posturing. In case anyone wonders why I argue (aside from this being on the internet).

They probably can't afford him 

I'm not really sure what I'd enjoy doing for them other than consulting; my dream job is more like making amazing software tools for engineers and people with ideas in general, although it did come after idolizing Burt Rutan's Scaled Composites work and studying aerospace engineering.

To be clear, my only real privilege is to get to talk to interesting people and learn from them, but honestly that came about because I exercised my curiosity aggressively the moment I moved to the Bay Area. And then I realized we had to write all this stuff down to make the platform workable for more people. (See If Your Product Isn't Documented, It Doesn't Exist; then read it again).

I will say it's occasionally astonishing to realize people read what I post, specifically. At the tenth anniversary event, someone on the Zero factory floor told me that they heard "Mr. Rice" was here, which just about floored me. Most of what I do is evaluate claims and think about them until I can figure out what's the best lesson out of them.

I did spend three years just riding a 13DS around in Seattle prior to that, and riding/maintaining a Suzuki V-Strom as a primary vehicle. But I want something closer to the Peraves E-Tracer (which isn't importable even at its crazy price).

So, I guess that's my statement about all of this. I'll probably take a break once I have what I wanted out of this platform.

[NEW2elec]

Well these are the jobs that are open now.

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/company/employment.php

[ChainGun]

Zero S 2015
*My wife sometimes mocks me on how small the bike look (compared to my previous 20 year Suzuki DL-650 and VX800) but its size makes it ideal for lane splitting and riding on narrow shoulders during traffic jams (as is the common practice in Israel).
*Even after 24K KM I still can't find the perfect riding posture. There is a groove in the seat where I supposed my butt is supposed to go but it's too far for me to sit comfortably. Sometimes I find myself with my groin almost touching the "fuel tank".
*Mirrors are ridiculous.
*I don't interface with Zero, only with the Israeli dealer. He never disappointed me.
*Design wise, I'm disappointed because how bland it looks. People do come over and say it's beautiful, but for the life of me I can't see why.
*I love the bike because of engine. It's fast, powerful, silent and fun. I'm very happy with the bike.

[Richard230]

Well these are the jobs that are open now.

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/company/employment.php

That is an interesting collection of open positions - especially the VP of Operations.  You would think Zero would already have one of those.   

[laramie LC4]

Well these are the jobs that are open now.

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/company/employment.php

That is an interesting collection of open positions - especially the VP of Operations.  You would think Zero would already have one of those.   

i personally like that "licensed motorcyclist" is a requirement for employment. 

laramie 

[JBC444]

When I made my original post, I didn't think it would generate much comment.  Thank you for all the input, it really helped in writing the review article.  I've wanted to get back here to add more comments, but the site is often down.

Some clarifications:  Our venture group never had any interest in investing in Zero, although they did seem to think so...  We simply used Zero, along with some other domestic and international electrics, as a part of a case study for our internal publication.  We offered Zero the opportunity to have input, and, while they missed the boat on that entirely, we included their two emails as examples of their corporate culture and communications "style".  In our other industry studies, we've received reams of PR and marketing data, just by asking.  PR and marketing opportunities aren't of interest to Zero, based on their response.  Let's just say, we're still scratching our heads over that... 

Zero does "monitor" this forum, whatever that means.  They referred to it in our stilted communications.  Why they don't participate, respond, or, I don't know, put together a marketing plan and have their own forum, is open to speculation.  One might speculate that they don't need a marketing plan because they don't intend to remain in business.  One can only rate their after-purchase customer care as "shoddy".  This forum is littered with disgruntled customers, most of whom are, or will have to, resort to legal remedies to obtain warranty satisfaction.  This just isn't the posture that a company focused on growth (or even long term existence) would take.  If this is how they act while ostensibly trying to sell a product and grow, what can a customer expect if, like Skully, they suddenly turn tail and run? 

My advice to all customers is to make direct contact with the manufacturer and state your intention to hold them accountable for their warranty, and document all of your correspondence.  Establish your claim for n advance of any future bankruptcy filing.  There won't be a lot of warning.

Our firm is still considering it's position in electrics.  We don't think it's a big disclosure to say that the opportunities we are considering are all offshore.  Typically, we place between $20 and $40mm each cycle, but we anticipate the next two or three funding cycles to be significantly lower.  Both the tech-hostile new administration and the huge upside of companies like Cezeta (no, we're not investing in that, it's just an example) lead us to look overseas, but with more caution than ever before. 

Doing this study and writing the article for our group has been almost as much fun as riding the bike.  We already knew that Zero's cult following was strong, but some of the defensive replies to my criticisms underscored that in a way I would not have been able to paraphrase.  I know it's hard when somebody seems to be attacking something you love.  Your passion does you credit.

[Shadow]

I'm a recent addition to this forum and so perhaps I've missed some important history here. @JBC444 What are you even going on about?