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[NEW2elec]

Doug I miss the 10% all ready but even though the buyer gets a, say $1600 tax credit, that's just a way for the government to give Zero or Tesla or any EV maker the money only after they make a sale.  Think about it you give Zero a $16,000 check (more with all the extras but MSRP) they keep all that money you get $1600 from the gov but it really went to Zero in the form of them being able to charge $16,000 instead of $14,400, which was your out of pocket cost in the end anyway.  I hate to say it but if they don't bring the credit back by May, Zero will have to drop their prices.  They can't miss the spring and summer buying season trying to keep higher prices.

[Fred]

I find this whole thread a bit odd to be honest. Why would a VC really care about riding the bike or whether quoted mileage is accurate in the real world? All you need to know is in the numbers of the company and projections for the industry.

[Ndm]

The one month ownership seems like a poor metric to entirely evaluate a product, and that month being in the worst case scenario time of year (winter) only further questions the method of evaluation, a minimum of one year should be used to properly conclude a simple example, three years plus experience past the warranty would be more ideal, Nevermind the lack of cross platform examination

[Richard230]

Zero did receive a $1 million grant from the Obama administration in 2012 that was used for the development of the motor used in the 2013 and later models.  I also seem to recall that the county of Santa Cruz gave them a substantial grant or loan to set up their factory in Scotts Valley.  But then this was the time when a lot of private companies were receiving economic stimulus loans to help the economy get out of the Great Recession.  It was a good thing for them that Obama was running things at the time as I doubt they would have gotten a cent from You Know Who.

[Doug S]

...that's just a way for the government to give Zero or Tesla or any EV maker the money only after they make a sale.

That's one perspective, I suppose, but I don't agree with it at all. Is the mortgage interest deduction a giveaway to banks? Of course not. Its purpose, and its actual effect, is to make it easier for people like us to buy property. Of course that increases the bank's business, which does benefit the bank, and as I said in my post, the EV subsidy does benefit the manufacturer. But it's just kind of silly to say that the mortgage interest deduction is done as a giveaway to the banks, or that it's an unfair business practice to people who rent properties instead of selling them. It's just the government's way of supporting something they want to encourage people to do.

[Adan]

This thread has a fictional air about it from the beginning.  Sort of like someone having fun by saying "I've got a bunch of money I might give to your favorite company but, oops, no, you didn't convince me the product is good enough." 

The best way to evaluate the Zero is to compare it to an ICE bike in an actual commute scenario over a substantial period of time.  How it benefits you in the context of a day in day out grind is where the real value is -- the kind of value that should draw in more users if they only could experience it themselves.  That's my opinion. 

[Doug S]

This thread has a fictional air about it from the beginning.  Sort of like someone having fun by saying "I've got a bunch of money I might give to your favorite company but, oops, no, you didn't convince me the product is good enough." 

The best way to evaluate the Zero is to compare it to an ICE bike in an actual commute scenario over a substantial period of time.  How it benefits you in the context of a day in day out grind is where the real value is -- the kind of value that should draw in more users if they only could experience it themselves.  That's my opinion.

Amen, brother. I'm with you about the "reality" of this thread overall, but even more so about your second point.

A vehicle is a tool, plain and simple. Evaluate how it fills your needs, decide if it's the best solution for you, and make your purchase decision based on that. Yes, EVs have range and charge time issues. Don't under- or overestimate those, just carefully consider how much of an effect they're going to have on you in your real-world circumstance. Do the same with the EV's other characteristics as well. In reality, most of us put on a huge number of commuting miles a couple dozen miles per day, and an EV can't be beat at that task. Whether the EV's range and charge time issues are show-stoppers for you are something you need to work out. Don't panic because it isn't like what you've done before, just evaluate the realities. In my opinion, people very strongly overestimate the range/charge time issues, and very badly underestimate the EV's value as king of commuting.

[grmarks]

I guess Zero get more US sales which props up the company at the moment, but I am sure they want to get to a point where the price is competitive with ICE bikes and then they won't need propping up. Lets hope they survive the current administration.
Many people outside of the US are expecting an assassination if he steps on the wrong toes! 

[rider7]

The seat is uncomfortable and poorly engineered, the mirrors are nearly useless in their original configuration and only minimally adjustable.  The right mirror assembly is integrated into the brake handle, meaning that if you re-position the mirror, you also re-position the brake handle inaccessibly.  The headlight seems inadequate and a poor choice, given how much better and modern LEDs would have been.  I find the side stand doesn't inspire confidence and anticipate that, sooner or later, it will fall over if the ground surface isn't perfect.  While a center stand might require some thought, some thought would have been a worthwhile investment when it comes to a safe, stable center stand. 



JBC444,

I do appreciate your attempt to analyze a product, but would like to point out that I think you don't understand why Zero is actually so successful in the first place despite some of your very justified criticism, which I in part agree with and in part I think is ridiculous of you to even bring it up.

Zero is very successful because of people who don't analyze a product like you do, but who's decision to support endeavors like theirs is driven by conviction and passion for the overall idea and way overdue final push to get a smarter concept realized.

Your section of critisism of the mirrors, the side stand and the seat is clearly showing that you don't have a lot of experience with motorbikes.
I have been riding the complete lineup of all Ducati motorcycles last year which is equally expensive and exclusive, and all of them had the absolutely typical uncomfortable seats, almost useless mirrors and other things that one would think is impossible to get away with for a pricy and prestige laden product like that.
Given that traditionally Italian motor vehicles get away with more of those flaws than let's say BMW for example.

In 33 years of riding on a varity of motorbikes I have found that mirrors in their traditional configuration are all very limited in their usage.
I have never come across a different setup on the throttle side that would separate the mirror and the brake assembly, and the limit of adjustability lies in the range of montion of the ball joint of the mirror rather the attachment point of the mirror itself.
I am glad Zero is not trying to develop their own peripheral components, since it would take away time and resources that are needed for drive train and chassis integration etc.
They have to deal with the cards they are dealt with from the peripheral industry.

And I am not saying that it is a perfect solution, but as far as motorycles and a reason to add uncecessary criticism to the zero bikes, they almost all have this configuration and it is not a problem whatsoever.
Anybody who has tried bar end mirrors finds out that that is the way to go anyway.
They are small, but mighty.
The convex type allows you to see the entire street behind you from both mirrors, they never block the view, you can fold them up for lane splitting and they don't look stupid like mikey mouse like all the stock mirrors.

Seat, really, the seat looks slick, nicely designed and engineered, but is uncomfortable.
Would you want a better seat on a 17,000 dollar bike, yes, but I can care less, since I got a superb drive train, a superior technology to everything else out there at this point and the aftermarket industry traditionally takes care of those issues.

And lastly, I am not sure if I need a bunch of money driven venture capitalists to be involved in this industry. That sounded harsher and meaner than I feel about it, but I simply don't care for money driven people and their input.
You do seem to be an articulated, intelligent and nice person, so please, don't let my aversion to money "capitalists" insult you personally, that is not my intention at all.

But in my opinion, this industry lives and dies with their groups of supporters and small time investors like me, and not groups that jump on profitable ideas for the sake of making money.
We Zero owners are in this for the concept, the conviction, the passion, the right thing to do you name it, a million reasons but the money.

So, I do commend your efforts, I do see the value of what you are trying to do, I appreciate the what seems to be an honest approach, but some of your criticism is completely unjustified since it holds true for the entire motorcycle industry and shouldn't be pointed out on bikes that need support and not hair splitting, penetrantic unecessary and actually flat out untrue statements like for example your side stand issue.

This side stand looks like it is holding the bike together. It looks like is is responsible for half the energy consumption of the battery pack, it is the strongest and most overengineered side stand I have ever seen and the foot is larger than most I have ever seen as well, and for the fact that it would sink in on lose ground, that holds true for every single bike out there and they sell a thing for that if you happen to park on soft ground all the time.

So, no hard feelings, I ectually enjoyed reading your report, but to be really honest, a venture capital group is irrelevant for the success of this product and is irellevant for pretty much any project that is driven by passion. Those will prevail no matter what, with your money or without it. It gets my money any day.

Oh, I do agree with you that Zero could, with very little effort build up a better customer relation department (just hire a nice professional front desk person who welcomes new owners with a phone call and make them feel at home) that would make owners feel a bit more welcome etc, but I cannot help it but be ok with all that, since I know they are hunkered down writing code and picking new components to make my next Zero even more impressively performing.

To close this up, overall I really appreciate your efforts and the time you are investing into this and your openness to share your opinion and experiences with all of us.
It is important to get the views of outsiders and I simply wanted to express some of our views, or at least mine, that make the flaws that these bikes have, which are actually not relevant and again, applicable across most of the bike line ups from other brands, well... irrelevant.

If you find spelling mistakes, you can keep them

Rider7


 

[rider7]

Oh, and it looks like that sentiment that your evaluation isn't really applicable to Zero specific features is reflected by many users here.
Your more or less side mentioning of how awesome this bike is, drowns in critisism that doesn't reflect anything relevant to the ownership of these amazing bikes.

Rider7

[Justin Andrews]

To be honest, these days I'm finding it hard to justify owning an ICE bike anymore, the ones I have have literally and actually rotted on the side of the road due to lack of use, for one I like the convenience of never having to interrupt my journey to work and waste time by filling up.

[JaimeC]

Well, I confess I DID take the C650GT to work today as the temperatures will be below freezing all day.  With a full tank of gas, I don't have to worry about the range and there is enough spare electrical capacity to power the heated saddle, heated grips AND my heated vest (not to mention the superior wind protection afforded by the height-adjustable windshield and full fairing).

However, I have so far this year (since New Year's Day) put over 500 miles on the Zero and just cracked 100 on the scooter so you know which bike I prefer when the weather permits.  I was tempted to get the Corbin saddle just for the looks.  Long range comfort doesn't mean much on a bike you can only ride for about two hours or so, and the money for the Corbin could be better spent on other things (like the new washing machine I didn't know I'd need this year).

By the way, in a full tuck it IS possible to adjust the mirrors to give you a decent view of what is behind you.  I just noticed this the other day as I've been riding in a full tuck this winter far more often than I ever did in the summer (hey, it's COLD and I can get out of most of the air stream by lying down on the "tank."  It helps also make up for the slightly reduced range in the winter, too).

[Richard230]

I guess Zero get more US sales which props up the company at the moment, but I am sure they want to get to a point where the price is competitive with ICE bikes and then they won't need propping up. Lets hope they survive the current administration.
Many people outside of the US are expecting an assassination if he steps on the wrong toes!

Is there someone in the world that hasn't had their toes stepped on by the current administration yet?  And we still have almost 4 years to go.     Happy days are here again!   

[Adan]

penetrantic

That's not a word.  But it should be.   

[Zen]

I have not posted in a while though I still visit. I read the OP review there seems to be a lack of riding experience. The issues he stated are issues that can be found on any motorcycle forum. Seats, mirrors, handlebar height there is no one size fits all. I was looking to buy a Zero a while back and put it on hold to buy another ice bike a Versys 650LT the reason being my riding style, where I live and ride.  I weighed things out and it was not Zero time yet. The Zero is still in my sights though. That being said there are many faults with the Versys that I could go on any forum and complain about seat and windshield being two of them. I think that Zero deserves credit for all they have done for the industry. And as a right winger I am all for government spending in new technology. I just like making sure the money is used appropriate manner. The new administration may prove out to be of value for Zero if some of the imports are taxed to level the playing field (and yes I am guilty of buying these imports). As a manufacturer here in New England we are already starting to see work that we lost overseas coming back.This is a big win for us little guys. Any way don't want to get off subject here, I don't care if you are advocates, crusaders, or just lovers of these bikes.
PLEASE Keep it going this is a great forum with great information .
thank you