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[Shadow]

I've experienced "unexpected deceleration" on my 2016 DSR, and on a loaner 2016 S. I did not know enough then to pull the MBB logs or how to look at them, and the problem has not happened on my 2016 DSR in 1000mi+ since having the bike serviced, updated, and motor recommissioned. It's scary to experience this sudden braking, for sure. I have not heard any reports yet of a crash because of this.

It is very good we have the community MBB log decoder, and that you have the log to show evidence there is some kind of error.

[domingo3]

Which of the torque map modes was this, Eco / Sport / Custom ?

Was this during 100% throttle, or instead the middle of throttle range?

Any modifications to the bike or strong radio frequency sources nearby (radio transmitter) ?

Custom
100%
no modifications to the bike.
not that I know of, it happened 4 times, in different locations, I do not believe that it's about the location, but if it is, it's common.
to clarify the symptom: somewhere around top speed, while accelerating, the bike brakes, hard, for a second, or half a second. The engine stays on, there is no other symptom that I know of. after that second everything goes back to normal. first time this happened i thought I pushed the leg brake by mistake.

  This sounds just like what I experienced.  I notice in your logs you have the same 0x46c3 code that I had.  I don't know what code means or if it's an indicator of the problem, but the symptoms you describe are the same. 

  I brought my bike to a dealer and it was diagnosed as a faulty motor.  I am waiting for a new motor now.

[IsraelFXS2016]

  This sounds just like what I experienced.  I notice in your logs you have the same 0x46c3 code that I had.  I don't know what code means or if it's an indicator of the problem, but the symptoms you describe are the same. 

  I brought my bike to a dealer and it was diagnosed as a faulty motor.  I am waiting for a new motor now.

oh shi... I really hope this is not the case with my bike 
it's holidays now in Israel, I will go to the dealer next week and see what happens.

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

  This sounds just like what I experienced.  I notice in your logs you have the same 0x46c3 code that I had.  I don't know what code means or if it's an indicator of the problem, but the symptoms you describe are the same. 

  I brought my bike to a dealer and it was diagnosed as a faulty motor.  I am waiting for a new motor now.

oh shi... I really hope this is not the case with my bike 
it's holidays now in Israel, I will go to the dealer next week and see what happens.

Because the throttle signal goes right to the Sevcon, the symptoms seem still consistent with a throttle electrical fault. Anyway, I'd hope that's all it is.

[domingo3]

  This sounds just like what I experienced.  I notice in your logs you have the same 0x46c3 code that I had.  I don't know what code means or if it's an indicator of the problem, but the symptoms you describe are the same. 

  I brought my bike to a dealer and it was diagnosed as a faulty motor.  I am waiting for a new motor now.

oh shi... I really hope this is not the case with my bike 
it's holidays now in Israel, I will go to the dealer next week and see what happens.

Because the throttle signal goes right to the Sevcon, the symptoms seem still consistent with a throttle electrical fault. Anyway, I'd hope that's all it is.

What signal could the throttle send to induce 500% regen?  Isn't the throttle essentially a rheostat with closed=0, wide open= max, or am I simplifying too much?

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

  This sounds just like what I experienced.  I notice in your logs you have the same 0x46c3 code that I had.  I don't know what code means or if it's an indicator of the problem, but the symptoms you describe are the same. 

  I brought my bike to a dealer and it was diagnosed as a faulty motor.  I am waiting for a new motor now.

oh shi... I really hope this is not the case with my bike 
it's holidays now in Israel, I will go to the dealer next week and see what happens.

Because the throttle signal goes right to the Sevcon, the symptoms seem still consistent with a throttle electrical fault. Anyway, I'd hope that's all it is.

What signal could the throttle send to induce 500% regen?  Isn't the throttle essentially a rheostat with closed=0, wide open= max, or am I simplifying too much?

It's 0-5kOhm, but basically that simple: https://www.evdrives.com/product_p/thr-magura-assy.htm

I'm suggesting it has some kind of fault, maybe shorting to ground. I'm not sure about that at all, just that it seems sufficient to explain the log entry and the (scary) outcome.

[domingo3]

What signal could the throttle send to induce 500% regen?  Isn't the throttle essentially a rheostat with closed=0, wide open= max, or am I simplifying too much?

It's 0-5kOhm, but basically that simple: https://www.evdrives.com/product_p/thr-magura-assy.htm

I'm suggesting it has some kind of fault, maybe shorting to ground. I'm not sure about that at all, just that it seems sufficient to explain the log entry and the (scary) outcome.

Thanks.  I still don't see how a throttle fault could explain any more than coasting or "100%" regen, if that's what custom mode was programmed with.  Can you share your thought process?

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

What signal could the throttle send to induce 500% regen?  Isn't the throttle essentially a rheostat with closed=0, wide open= max, or am I simplifying too much?

It's 0-5kOhm, but basically that simple: https://www.evdrives.com/product_p/thr-magura-assy.htm

I'm suggesting it has some kind of fault, maybe shorting to ground. I'm not sure about that at all, just that it seems sufficient to explain the log entry and the (scary) outcome.

Thanks.  I still don't see how a throttle fault could explain any more than coasting or "100%" regen, if that's what custom mode was programmed with.  Can you share your thought process?

Thanks for asking, because I was just trying to identify something easy to troubleshoot that was consistent with some kind of error. In other words, it felt like a plausible lead.

I went and scanned the Sevcon gen4 manual for any meaning that 46c3 might indicate, and the 4600 range means a motor measurement IF the CAN code in your logs corresponds to the debug variables (section 7 near the end). OR 46c3 refers to one of the analog input lines per the Wire-Off Detection section on 6-15.

For the latter, there's some allowable voltage range, and maybe there's a hard shutdown feature if it's out of range. And the throttle is an analog input, though I don't know which it's assigned to aside from there really not being many. 2-10 indicates that the analog throttle input would get this protection. 2-12 lists a set of fault levels that might be relevant but don't operate the way you described.

The idea that an electrical fault could result in a high side is definitely concerning.

It would be very helpful if your dealer can reproduce the issue on a controlled stand. One can hope, anyway.

[domingo3]

  Thanks for the explanation.  Neither the dealer nor Zero have shared anything about their troubleshooting process, beyond that they've identified excessive faults in the logs, did some online diagnostics and have decided to replace the motor.  I suspect that they did not attempt to reproduce the error on a stand as you suggested.  I can only hope that they know what they're doing.  I don't want to think about the error coming back again after I pick up the bike and having to go through the process multiple times.  A month without my bike is already way too long.

[nevetsyad]

My wife's 2016 S just lost throttle while on the highway. Dash said 0 MPH and the running light was flashing. No overheat warning or reduction in power, just total propulsion lost. Pulling over and rebooting fixed it. Seems different from what everyone else here is experiencing. Hopefully Zero will start start replying to my E-mails again.

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

My wife's 2016 S just lost throttle while on the highway. Dash said 0 MPH and the running light was flashing. No overheat warning or reduction in power, just total propulsion lost. Pulling over and rebooting fixed it. Seems different from what everyone else here is experiencing. Hopefully Zero will start start replying to my E-mails again.

That sounds more like a known Sevcon protection feature that is listed in their manual (page 2-10 as I listed above).

[domingo3]

Waiting outside the dealer now so I can pick up my bike. It's been just over a month. Communication has been less than stellar, but this is not the dealer that I purchased from. Not sure if that should be an excuse or not. Each time I called, they coincidentally were just finishing something with the bile right when I called. If I was closer and could stop by every day, maybe it would be dome sooner. 

 Now to check out the bike for damage and then ride it to make sure the problem is resolved. Will update once I get some miles in and check the logs.
 

[Kocho]

Look for loose or missing fasteners and new scratches (was my experience when I picked-up my bike after a month in the shop, luckily the core of the repair worked and has been trouble-free thereafter).

[domingo3]

People at the dealer were friendly.  They gave me the bike back, but no documentation of what was tested or what the repairs were other than a verbal that the motor was replaced.  Is this normal, or should I have something?  When I asked about it, they said they could give me a copy of the receipt when Zero paid the bill.  They mentioned, probably a bit frustrated, that the bill was about $2000, and they expected to wait about six months to be paid, because "Zero likes to take their time".

I looked around in the logs, and can see when the bike was powered on. The only days the bike was powered on were March 22nd and April 20th.  I dropped off the bike on March 21st.  On March 22nd, it was powered on and tested for about an hour in the morning, sat idle for about four hours, and then tested again for about two hours.  I called on March 23rd to get a status, and they said they were coincidentally talking to Zero at the moment I called.  They didn't tell me that they had connected with Zero the day before for remote testing, which actually would have been a message that I would have appreciated.  I was told on April 11th that Zero was shipping a new motor.  On April 20th, the bike was powered on for about two hours.  When I called on April 25th, they said they were just finishing up with Zero that day and my bike would be ready to pick up.  I realize that they could certainly be working on things without the bike powered up, but it's interesting to be able to see the logs and fit that in with what I was told of the progress. 

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

People at the dealer were friendly.  They gave me the bike back, but no documentation of what was tested or what the repairs were other than a verbal that the motor was replaced.  Is this normal, or should I have something?  When I asked about it, they said they could give me a copy of the receipt when Zero paid the bill.  They mentioned, probably a bit frustrated, that the bill was about $2000, and they expected to wait about six months to be paid, because "Zero likes to take their time".

Normal or not, this doesn't make a good relationship between the dealer and the OEM or you. That's lame. A good service department will educate you on your bike, even on a basic level.

One thing I've always done (although I'm sure I learned it from someone) with motorcycles to test a dealer's service department is to check the bike in with a minor problem that I don't mention, and see whether they bring it up. If they do, that's when I start to trust them. Otherwise, I'll try to ask innocuous questions that carefully check what they actually did. Try to act like a student or at least sympathetic and get around any defensiveness. Not that it always works, but some interaction needs to be productive to get return business.

I looked around in the logs, and can see when the bike was powered on. The only days the bike was powered on were March 22nd and April 20th.  I dropped off the bike on March 21st.  On March 22nd, it was powered on and tested for about an hour in the morning, sat idle for about four hours, and then tested again for about two hours.  I called on March 23rd to get a status, and they said they were coincidentally talking to Zero at the moment I called.  They didn't tell me that they had connected with Zero the day before for remote testing, which actually would have been a message that I would have appreciated.  I was told on April 11th that Zero was shipping a new motor.  On April 20th, the bike was powered on for about two hours.  When I called on April 25th, they said they were just finishing up with Zero that day and my bike would be ready to pick up.  I realize that they could certainly be working on things without the bike powered up, but it's interesting to be able to see the logs and fit that in with what I was told of the progress. 

Maybe this is why the version of the log parser that you can run on your mobile phone's web browser (https://github.com/zero-motorcycle-community/browser-parse) is so important: because you can check on their work before leaving or signing for the bike.