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Author Topic: I had to push it home for the first time today  (Read 2121 times)

Fivespeed302

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I had to push it home for the first time today
« on: January 16, 2017, 07:20:37 AM »

I found this sweet place with some real nice curves in the road.  Since I'm in Florida, curves are hard to come by.  It was so far from home, that I only went around it 1 1/2 times before I hit 50% on the battery and turned around for the ride home.  4 miles from home, I was at 12%, but speed cut down to 27 mph.  I was about a full mile from home with 9% when it went straight to 0% and simply stopped.  I pushed it the rest of the way home.   :(
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Say10 15FX 16FXS

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Re: I had to push it home for the first time today
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2017, 07:23:43 AM »

At least you have nice enough weather to ride! Pushing does totally suck though!
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Fivespeed302

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Re: I had to push it home for the first time today
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2017, 07:31:44 AM »

Yeah, it was actually pretty hot.  Pushing a Zero is a little more work than pushing a regular bike.  Pretty good core workout.   ;D
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2015 Zero SR
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Say10 15FX 16FXS

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Re: I had to push it home for the first time today
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2017, 08:06:31 AM »

Now that's a positive approach! Maybe I'll push mine around the block a few times (in full gear of course!) to improve my fitness. It will also show the neighbors how hard I am!
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KrazyEd

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Re: I had to push it home for the first time today
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2017, 11:22:35 AM »

   I have been driving / riding electric vehicles for about a decade and one of the first things I do when I get a new vehcile
is find out what my limits are in a controlled situation. I have various routes that I take that I know what kind of power use
is needed. As battery gets lower I switch to shorter and shorter laps so that I am never far from a known outlet.
In years of driving and thousands of miles under my belt, I have had only a very few instances where I ran out of juice
unexpectedly. The Zeros are pretty easy as they just require a standard out which can be found almost anywhere.
Grocery stores are usually pretty good, just find the vending machines / kids rides and there is usually an empty outlet.
   If the bike does die, pull over ( as safely as possible ) to assess the situation. If you wait for a few minutes, you will get
a little bit of rejuvenation in the battery and be able to get a bit more distance. Any time I am about to stop, I circle the
parking lot to see if there is an open outlet to use as I am patronizing one of the businesses in the complex.
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MajorMajor

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Re: I had to push it home for the first time today
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2017, 01:51:37 PM »

People just let you use their outlets?
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ultrarnr

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Re: I had to push it home for the first time today
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2017, 02:54:54 PM »

Fivespeed302,

Time to think about upgrading to a newer model! I say that because I had that happen a few times on the 2014 SR I had. If you had checked the cell imbalance you would probably have seen a number like 130 mV or higher. I had my 2014 SR go from 17% SOC to 0% in an instant and that was that last long ride I ever did on the bike. Simply didn't trust it any more. Despite taking a huge hit on trade in value I got rid of it for a 2016 SR. Just rolled over 10,000 miles and it has been flawless. Vinny
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Fivespeed302

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Re: I had to push it home for the first time today
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2017, 03:58:02 PM »

Fivespeed302,

Time to think about upgrading to a newer model! I say that because I had that happen a few times on the 2014 SR I had. If you had checked the cell imbalance you would probably have seen a number like 130 mV or higher. I had my 2014 SR go from 17% SOC to 0% in an instant and that was that last long ride I ever did on the bike. Simply didn't trust it any more. Despite taking a huge hit on trade in value I got rid of it for a 2016 SR. Just rolled over 10,000 miles and it has been flawless. Vinny

While I love my Zero, I'm not in a position to trade in my bike at this point.  I'd probably get a FZ-07 or R3 or something similar if I had to.  My warranty expires at the end of April so I will probably take the bike in to the shop to check for imbalances sometime soon.
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Fivespeed302

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Re: I had to push it home for the first time today
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2017, 04:05:55 PM »

   I have been driving / riding electric vehicles for about a decade and one of the first things I do when I get a new vehcile
is find out what my limits are in a controlled situation. I have various routes that I take that I know what kind of power use
is needed. As battery gets lower I switch to shorter and shorter laps so that I am never far from a known outlet.
In years of driving and thousands of miles under my belt, I have had only a very few instances where I ran out of juice
unexpectedly. The Zeros are pretty easy as they just require a standard out which can be found almost anywhere.
Grocery stores are usually pretty good, just find the vending machines / kids rides and there is usually an empty outlet.
   If the bike does die, pull over ( as safely as possible ) to assess the situation. If you wait for a few minutes, you will get
a little bit of rejuvenation in the battery and be able to get a bit more distance. Any time I am about to stop, I circle the
parking lot to see if there is an open outlet to use as I am patronizing one of the businesses in the complex.

I tested the limits when I first got it like you said.  It has never in 11,500 miles just dropped 9% so all the testing was for nothing. I was only 1 mile from home and should have been able to easily get home with 9%.  And you should have seen where I was, in the middle of a retirement village.  The only way I could have charged my bike would have been to steal electricity.  In addition, after an hour it was at 10% and still wouldn't operate properly.  The dashboard would turn on but the red warning light flashed like the kickstand sensor was faulty and the throttle was useless.

It wasn't until it was in the mid 40's when I tried again and it worked fine. 
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2015 Zero SR
2009 Yamaha R1

Richard230

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Re: I had to push it home for the first time today
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2017, 09:15:05 PM »

I ran my 2014S down to zero charge once.  It kept moving at 1%, but the second it hit 0% the bike stopped dead, until I let it rest for 30 seconds then it would move another 100 feet and stop again.  I managed to get the last 1/4 mile (uphill) home that way.  So I found my battery capacity gauge perfectly accurate. It does seem strange that yours would drop from 17% to 0% in an instant. (My bike was built in December 2013 and is still running perfectly. However, I have avoided obtaining any new firmware updates. I have always been of the opinion that if things are working well don't mess with them.  :)  )
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 09:24:00 PM by Richard230 »
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Richard's motorcycle collection:  2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2020 KTM 390 Duke, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

mericle

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Re: I had to push it home for the first time today
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2017, 09:39:54 PM »

My 2014s used to allow riding down to 8% before switching to 0% but it has gotten progressively worse over the past 6 months. Now, at 19% it cuts the torque way back and at 17% it switches to 0%. The cells are closely balanced; so I am not sure what has caused the degradation. For now, I use 20% displayed to mean 0% charge remaining.
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ctrlburn

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Re: I had to push it home for the first time today
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2017, 10:01:44 PM »

I think we have to get a detailed than just year and model in our experience reporting for this behavior.

Some are reporting stability getting down in the low single digits SOC while others are reporting erratic drops.

Board and firmware?    http://home.hasslers.net/zerologparser/logs/

I've not been below 17% on my Zero (which is zero bars) So I'm nowhere near experienced on this subject of low SOC behavior.
03160   2013   Zero   SS   2013 rev1   7

Though I've pushed my 79 Sportster hilly 1.5 miles (i mapped it to be sure) and would much rather push my Zero.
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gman669

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Re: I had to push it home for the first time today
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2017, 01:01:04 AM »

On my fx I had it drop from 12% to 2% suddenly, then quickly to 0% and it shut off and had to catch a ride a couple miles from home.  Outside temp was under 40 degrees. When warm out I can go down to 0% and still ride another mile or two slowly.
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ultrarnr

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Re: I had to push it home for the first time today
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2017, 05:30:53 AM »

Fivespeed302,

The cell imbalance is something you can check on your Zero App if you have it on a smartphone. When fully charged cell imbalance will be about 3-4 mV. On the last time I had this problem on my 2014 SR I had a cell imbalance of around 163 mV. I got to a 110 outlet and plugged in. The cell imbalance immediately began dropping and at a faster rate than the SOC charge was increasing. I had actually checked the cell imbalance when I was about 20 miles from home and it was only around 30 mV. Thought I had plenty of charge left to get home. That was also my last time to stop at a L2 charger. Didn't think I needed to. But the cell imbalance began climbing fast after that. When I had power cut to 25 MPH max speed I knew very shortly the bike would die and SOC would drop to 0%. For most day to day riding this was never an issue because the SOC never got that low. But not being able to trust the bike on longer trips was one of the primary reasons I got rid of it. As far as I know the guy who bought it has never had a problem but have no idea how he rides.
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mrwilsn

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Re: I had to push it home for the first time today
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2017, 08:17:17 AM »

And you should have seen where I was, in the middle of a retirement village.  The only way I could have charged my bike would have been to steal electricity.  In addition, after an hour it was at 10% and still wouldn't operate properly.  The dashboard would turn on but the red warning light flashed like the kickstand sensor was faulty and the throttle was useless.

It wasn't until it was in the mid 40's when I tried again and it worked fine.

Or you could just knock on someone's door and ask to plug in....it's pretty embarrassing but sometimes you've gotta do what you've gotta do.  I have had very similar behavior on my 2014 Zero S twice and several other times I have just taken it all the way down to 0% (no sudden drops) before reaching my destination.  The first time SOC suddenly dropped to 0% I pushed about a mile past many houses to get to a parking garage that had an outlet.  The second time I just sucked it up and knocked on someone's door that had their garage open.

Yes, it was awkward but the old man that lived at the house was very friendly.  I tried to give him a few bucks but he wouldn't take it.  You might be surprised how many people would have your back if you just have the courage to ask.

Some tips on the Zero behavior...

The BMS controlled cell balancing takes place when the batteries are almost fully charged.  When you check cell balance at 100% it should be very low.  As ultrarnr said, 3-4 mV is normal.  I have seen my pack as low as 1 mV many times but I have also seen it over 100 mV many times.  Here are some screen shots of some times when I have had low SOC and high cell balance as well as a couple times when I was fully charged and cell balance was just 1 mV.  Note that in the one instance pack voltage was actually at 117 V with cell balance at 1 mV.



As you drain the battery the cells will slowly get out of balance due the small differences in internal resistance within the cells.  The lower the SOC the more out of balance they will get.  As soon as you start charging they will naturally start to rebalance themselves.  Once the pack is fully charged but before the BMS controlled cell balancing starts the cell balance should already be pretty good.  Then the BMS will kick in and start to balance the pack attempting to get every cell to exactly 4.15 V.

The cell balance is measured between the cell with the highest voltage and the cell with the lowest voltage.  Thus, when the pack is out of balance it's possible that most cells are very close and only one or a couple is actually much lower or higher than the others.

Higher rates of discharge are more likely to get the cells far out of balance than slower rates of discharge.  Also, if you unplug before the BMS can balance the cells at full charge then you may see higher cell balance when you get to low SOC.  If you just do this once you will be fine but if you go long periods of time without letting the BMS balance the pack then you will be at higher risk for seeing large cell balance at low SOC.

When you were ridding at 12%, your cells were likely too far out of balance.  I think what happens is that when the cells are far out of balance, SOC is low and you try to give it too much throttle then the voltage sags too much and the bike drops to 0% even though the voltage rises back up when you let off the throttle.  It could also be that the cell balance was worse than shown in the app but recovered before I was able to get connected and check it.  I haven't been able to confirm this because voltage and cell balance are not options on the riding screen in the app.  Notice that in the following picture I had just experienced the same problem as you with a sudden drop to 0%.  However, cell balance and voltage are similar to the previous pics where I was at 8-11%.



After plugging in, if you just let it go for a while and then unplug and try to ride you may see the behavior you described....still won't let you ride away until you got to 40%.  If it happens again do the following...

Plug in the bike.
Connect phone to the bike and check the balance (just for the data point).
After about 45 minutes - 1 hour unplug the bike and turn it on.
Turn the bike off.
Reset the BMS using the reset switch on the front of the battery (instructions on the unofficial zero manual)
Wait about 20 seconds and then turn the bike on.

You should have a few percent and you should be able to ride away but with such a low SOC it would be risky that you might have the sudden drop again before getting home.  But now you can at least plug back in and charge until you decide you have enough that you feel comfortable making a break for home (or wherever you plan to fully charge).  Make sure you fully charge the bike and let the BMS balance the cells when you do get home.  I think I waited until I was at about 20% before I rode home....actually, the first time it happened I rode home but the second time (pictured above) I gave myself just enough charge to make it to a charge point that was 2-3 miles away and then super charged for about 30 minutes to get the bike to 40-50% before riding home.

One other tip....when at 0% I have been able to push my bike with it keyed on for a block or two then turn the bike off and then turn back on and the regen was enough that I was able to do an assisted walk using the throttle while walking next to it.  It didn't work the second time my bike suddenly dropped to 0% (even after trying a BMS reset)...but I have been able to do it successfully more than once.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 10:05:17 AM by mrwilsn »
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