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[Low On Cash]

Let me open with the comment that I am not an Elon Musk (Tesla) Fan, but I did want to express the fact that with his billions of dollars mostly financed from US electric car tax Credits (or us taxpayers) he has managed to build Lithium cells in a more cost effective manner than any other company in the world.

Tesla’s recent announcement shows the release of the Tesla Power Wall 2 - a “Stand By”  home system powered by lithium cells to provide power to a home during cycles or used as an emergency outage system.

Just a few years ago, lithium was costing around a $1000 per kilowatt - Tesla announced the Power Wall 2 will be available in two offerings;  a 7 kWh for $3000 and a 10 kWh system for only $3500. Therefore, simple math tells us that has brought the price of Lithium down on a retail level to only $350 per kW. I would imaging on a wholesale level the cost would be $200-250 per kW.

Hopefully, Zero and other companies will be able to secure these cells or possibly competing companies will follow. If they do, we could see a drastic reduction in electric motorcycle cost. If Zero could purchase cells for $250 kW, they would only have only $3250 in cell cost.

If Honda can build a motorcycle with an ICE engine and sell it for $10,000, if we remove the engine and transmission I’m sure this same bike could sell for $7,000. If this is the case, then surely Zero could over their 13kW bike for under $12,000, and keep the same profit margin they have now.  If Zero does not move in this direction - its certain other motorcycle manufactures will.

Regards Mike 

[mrwilsn]

TESLA's investment along with the investment of LG Chem, Panasonic and others will definitely drive the cost of lithium cells down.  Simple supply and demand.

However, you wouldn't want a motorcycle that was built with the cells TESLA is building in their new factory.  TESLA is building 21700 form factor cylindrical cells compared to the pouch cells from Farasis that Zero uses.  When you just look at energy density of the cells they may be comparable.  I haven't found specs on TESLA's new cells but the Farasis cells are pretty good.  But when you build a pack the cylindrical cells result in a lot of unused space so the pack ends up being far less energy dense.

Zero's battery packs are the most energy dense pack available on the market today bar none.  If they built a pack using TESLA's cells you would be taking a step backwards in range.

But still....more batteries on the market = falling prices....so it's a win 

[Shadow]

What's a good EV 4-wheeled vehicle that can tow a 2-wheeled EV vehicle?  Are there any EV trucks out there? How would you do this with say a Nissan Leaf?

[acacia1731]

Zero's battery packs are the most energy dense pack available on the market today bar none.  If they built a pack using TESLA's cells you would be taking a step backwards in range.

Cylindrical cells could be good for the lower capacity Zeros though.  For example, rather than offering a Z13 and Z6.5, maybe they could have the Z13 and a super low priced "C6.5" (by filling the Z13 volume with cylindrical packs).  I guess it depends on whether the cell cost difference is enough to justify the extra R&D, reduced economies of scale with Farasis, etc.

[Low On Cash]

Thanks for the reply however the new 2170 cell has the highest energy density of any lithium cell made.  Take a peek at the wall module 2 size, it has twice the energy of the older wall 1 module. Looks like they got it figured out and latest word the cost is only $340 kw.

[KrazyEd]

As far as towing something with an EV, the only thing presently sold that does this ( to my knowledge in the US anyway ) is the Model X Tesla.
Depending upon how far and fast you wish to tow, there are various other options. The most cost effective would probably be ( again just my opinion )
to find a Toyota Rav 4 EV. This was a collaboration between Toyota and Tesla. As far as an EV Truck, Ford manufactured a Ranger EV between 1998 and 2002.
Some can still be found in nice shape for a somewhat reasonable price. Other option would be to pick up a DIY EV conversion. No warranty, probably
short range and lead batteries, but, possibly reasonably priced due to owner losing interest. A site I used to frequent is
www.evtradinpost.com/
Recently, my spyware is telling me that there is a threat detected when trying to access the site.
Haven't had issues, but, you never know these days. I bought a car off of there several years ago.
Hope this helps

[Electric Terry]

Just a few years ago, lithium was costing around a $1000 per kilowatt - Tesla announced the Power Wall 2 will be available in two offerings;  a 7 kWh for $3000 and a 10 kWh system for only $3500. Therefore, simple math tells us that has brought the price of Lithium down on a retail level to only $350 per kW.

You're dividing the wrong numbers.  Don't take $3500/10, that includes all the other stuff to make it work, take just the cell cost.
if 7 kWh is $3k, and 10 kWh is $3.5k then 3 kWh is $500, or $133/kWh so it's almost 3 times less expensive than you thought.

However, as was stated, the premium on the Zero is space.  Zero has the most energy dense battery pack on the market, not Tesla.  Zero's pack is about 30% more energy for a given volume than the Tesla does.

The cost of having a smaller battery with 18650's or 2170's wouldn't make sense until volume of sales goes up at least 10 times or more.  Keeping one form factor is very important to keep cost down per unit.  If the number of units goes up my an order of magnitude, that might be considered, like perhaps using LG Chem cells, but not for another 4 years or more, but I'd bet Zero stays with one battery provider to keep the cell chemistry the same, voltage curves the same, etc.   Battery cost will come down over time, but if cost is a barrier to you getting a Zero, get a used one to start.  I've already shown how buying a Zero at full price, it can pay for itself in less than 3 years if you ride a lot over using gas.  So there's no need to complain about the price. 

If you save more in gas and maintenance each month than your monthly payment on the bike, your Zero is basically free anyway.  No reason not to get one right away if you still pay for gas, oil changes, and other maintenance.   If your commute isn't very far the math may not work with a new bike, but may with a 2-3 year old Zero, although it might be worth getting a new Zero anyway for the performance capabilities.  Just got to figure out what works for you, but there's no reason that everyone on this forum shouldn't be riding a Zero everyday!  Gas is the past! 

[Erasmo]

What's a good EV 4-wheeled vehicle that can tow a 2-wheeled EV vehicle?  Are there any EV trucks out there? How would you do this with say a Nissan Leaf?

A Leaf should easily be able to tow a motorcycle:

[Richard230]

I would be very surprised if Tesla sells their Gigafactory cells on the open market.  I bet they need all of their production to use in their own vehicles, especially the Model 3. They built that factory to supply cells to their own company, not to sell cells to their EV competitors, a few electric motorcycle manufacturers and to hobbyists.  However, the factory production still might drive down prices due to supply and demand. As Tesla buys fewer cells from other battery manufacturers, those companies will have to look for other markets and will likely offer their batteries at a lower price to attract new customers.    Either way, I bet Zero will stay with Farasis for many years in the future.

[Low On Cash]

According to the self proclaimed genius Elon - his new 2170 cell has the highest density/ energy of any cell made.

Also the claim on cost per Kw is about right - the Wall panel only includes a charger and Tesla's cost is around $200 per KW. Retail is around $300-350 - compare that to a zero 3K tank battery at $3,000 it comes to $1000 kw.

Also the statement only Tesla will have these cells or technology is not correct as their partner is Panosonic.

https://electrek.co/2016/11/02/tesla-panasonic-2170-battery-cell-highest-energy-density-cell-world-cheapest-elon-musk/

[Doug S]

According to the self proclaimed genius Elon - his new 2170 cell has the highest density/ energy of any cell made.

Your attempts at sarcasm fall seriously flat when you display your own ignorance by denigrating the intelligence of someone who clearly is very literally a genius.

The new cell format is referred to as 21-70, though some people use the old protocol and call it 21700. Either way, the 21 refers to the diameter of the cell in millimeters, the 70 (or 70.0 the old way, with the implied decimal) is the length, also in millimeters. And it does have the best energy density of any cell so far. But what other people are trying to explain to you is that because they're cylindrical, they don't pack together as well as the Farasis pouch cells, which are rectangular, so they pack together with very little wasted space. Packing cylinders into a rectangular space is pretty wasteful (think cigarettes in their box).

Tesla actually uses the space between the cells to their advantage; they've designed a curved, rectangular cross section coolant pipe which snakes between the cells, contacting each one and allowing them to water-cool (or warm, in very cold climates) the batteries. None of the electric motorcycle manufacturers I'm aware of are water-cooling their cells.

[Killroy]

I agree that cylindrical cells have a poor packing factor. 

Yet, since it is easy to go fast and overheat a Zero battery, having some space for cooling might be a good thing for racing performance.  To me its sad that the old Brammo with less power and less energy in the battery is beating Zeros in eMoto racing.  The Zeros have overheating issues and are said to limp at the end of the race. 

The subsidies for Tesla are overblow in the media by including the best case over 20 years into the future.  Its not like Tesla is getting a check to build the Gigafactory.  The $7500 federal tax credit goes to the consumer, not Tesla.  Compare subsidies of other industries to be fair. 

[dukecola]

Some interesting facts

"Lithium Supply

    Global lithium supply is concentrated in relatively few locations; it is dominated by Australian hard-rock production (Greenbushes), and South American brine deposits in Argentina and Chile.
    The market is currently dominated by a small number of companies which control around 50% of supply; Albemarle (ALB US), which owns Rockwood Lithium, SQM (SQM US), FMC (FMC US) and Chengdu Tianqi listed on the Shenzhen Exchange.
    South American brine supply has risks of disruption, both geo-political and climatic. Supply in 2015 was disrupted by increased rainfall. Most recently, SQM’s Atacama core operations lease has been under threat from an arbitration case, where the lessor is seeking early termination of the lease.
    New supply ramp-up has also experienced challenges and delays, such as at Orocobre’s operations in Argentina.
    It is estimated that there is 200ktpa of advanced stage development capacity that could be brought online by 20207. This is far short of the predicted demand growth, which is likely to be favourable for future lithium prices."

[Doug S]

To me its sad that the old Brammo with less power and less energy in the battery is beating Zeros in eMoto racing.  The Zeros have overheating issues and are said to limp at the end of the race.

I presume it's the battery pack that overheats? It almost has to be, since the motor and controller are externally accessible and something could certainly be done to increase cooling there...water spray if nothing else. Not too much you can do about the battery overheating though, short of replacing it with something designed for easier cooling, which would be a shame. Brandon told me that when he races on Pike's Peak, he packs ice around the battery pack to cool it down. I don't know what else you could do.

Keeping engines/motors cool is an interesting topic. I've heard that nitro-burning drag racers are liquid cooled, but have no radiator or water pump. The heads are jacketed, and they pour a couple of quarts of cool water in them before each run. The water has a high enough heat capacity that they can keep from overheating in the short time the engine runs. I also read recently that air-cooled engines are LESS susceptible to overheating on hot days than liquid-cooled engines, which seemed backwards, but it makes sense when you think about it. A air-cooled engine dumps heat from 400-degree engine parts directly into the airstream, while a liquid-cooled engine dumps heat from a radiator which doesn't get much above 250 degrees or so. So if the air temp rises by 50 degrees, the liquid-cooled engine loses a fair amount of the temperature differential, but the air-cooled engine doesn't lose as much.

[Low On Cash]

According to the self proclaimed genius Elon - his new 2170 cell has the highest density/ energy of any cell made.

Your attempts at sarcasm fall seriously flat when you display your own ignorance by denigrating the intelligence of someone who clearly is very literally a genius.

The new cell format is referred to as 21-70, though some people use the old protocol and call it 21700. Either way, the 21 refers to the diameter of the cell in millimeters, the 70 (or 70.0 the old way, with the implied decimal) is the length, also in millimeters. And it does have the best energy density of any cell so far. But what other people are trying to explain to you is that because they're cylindrical, they don't pack together as well as the Farasis pouch cells, which are rectangular, so they pack together with very little wasted space. Packing cylinders into a rectangular space is pretty wasteful (think cigarettes in their box).

Tesla actually uses the space between the cells to their advantage; they've designed a curved, rectangular cross section coolant pipe which snakes between the cells, contacting each one and allowing them to water-cool (or warm, in very cold climates) the batteries. None of the electric motorcycle manufacturers I'm aware of are water-cooling their cells.

Oh Boy - looks like we have a loyal Tesla /Elon fan here who for reasons unknown called me ignorant?

OK, since you brought it up, let me enlighten you. Most all of Elon’s achievements were financed with tax payer money (you & me) which we all paid through electric tax credits. Nevada alone provided $1.3 Billion in tax breaks. Regretfully, Elon has failed reciprocate any monies back to the general public (us) and continues to gouge the US public with prices on cars that are really worth only a fraction of their asking price.

For the most part, the remarkable Tesla S is a very simple design. Elon took an "ordinary" striped down sedan design, and by using a common motor, Elon put “7000” computer lap top batteries to power the car. This in itself shows its poor engineering since this is now well over 15,000 more connections than other electric that could fail. To make matters worse, the base S model is so striped down when you added the basic options (even the headliner) the car was well over $100 K

With Elon’s new "Way Over Priced" Tesla X, he continues to rip off this customers with a price that is 2-3 times the value of the car.  On the Model X he goes through the trouble to copy other manufactures gull wing doors (in a futile attempt to make it look exotic) but like a idiot he put them on the back doors which are never used by the driver except when hauling grandma and grand kids! So now when you go to show off your new Model X you’ll have to force your wife or girlfriend to sit in the back seat so you can show off the goofy looking doors. LOL.  I won’t bother to mention his model 3 / 300 mile affordable SUV which has increased in price numerous times - the Chevy Bolt is the Model 3 killer now.

Today, Elon continues to screw the US out of tax dollars - Even though direct manufacturer auto sales are prohibited in almost every state by franchise laws requiring that new cars be sold only by independent dealers and not direct - this snake continues to find loop holes to deprive cities and states of taxes by selling the car direct. This is the very reason Tesla has been banned from opening "Mail Order" dealers in many states. 

Regarding the 2170 cell thanks for the schooling but most us already knew the cell demisions. The tread is focused on the cost of the cells. The 2170 cells could easily be adapted to the Zero,  since the energy density is high they could fit in the Zeros battery space and bring the cost of the bike down $3-5,000. As we all know, Zero is charging $1000 kw - their tank battery confirms that.

Regards - Mike