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Author Topic: Questions on FastCharging / DigiNow Supercharger  (Read 11124 times)

BrianTRice

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Re: Questions on FastCharging / DigiNow Supercharger
« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2016, 12:35:08 AM »

As we have way smaller batteries compared to cars and usually more time when riding the bike, a solution like Remmies FlatpackS "supercharger" seems sufficient. And it shows the power density possible today, although it's not even optimized yet. Active cooling by fans shouldn't be an issue to worry about. With a little rearrangement Zero should be able to mount a 12-20 kW AC charger into the bike even together with a power tank. This would allow quite fast charging already.

Everything you've said was sensible except for this paragraph. Remmies flatpack charger gives up a lot of reliability and robustness for what it accomplishes, and you're overestimating what can fit into the tank area and dissipate heat reasonably well. I'm sure we're going to see new products at that spec but it's not going to assemble into a nice worry free configuration without a lot of money spent.

We'd be okay with a bigger tank, of course, but then you'd be raising the dash and making an entire cockpit for the bike, and suddenly just cramming more equipment there turns into vehicle redesign.
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Erasmo

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Re: Questions on FastCharging / DigiNow Supercharger
« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2016, 02:03:41 AM »

I am thinking one potential future of DC charging for Zero will be to use the DC fast chargers as a 300 volt DC bus that goes into the onboard chargers you carry which will get smaller and more powerful over time and so you can eventually get the power of what I used to get plugging into 4 J plugs at the same time, from a single connection.

While there is some hope that both SAE Combo and CHAdeMO will enforce their 50-500 volt specification, I find it highly unlikely as there isn't any other EV that needs it except us and Brammo.  Almost every other one is in the 320-410 volt range.

So simple economics are going to dictate lots of installations.  For instance about 150 SAE DC Combo chargers just got installed stretching from Canada to Mexico along Interstate 5 and Hwy 101 every 25-50 miles.  These units are extremely compact.  However the spec sheet of these chargers shows the DC output spec to be 300-450 volts.

So the likelihood of the DC charging industry ever enforcing going down to 100 volts is probably not going to ever happen.  In fact it's moving up to 1000 volts on the high end is last I heard.

What Zero needs is their own development, or the aftermarket to come up with small, lightweight, inexpensive chargers we can carry with us and stack in parallel.  So we can use 4 J plugs next to each other to charge at 24 kW, or to use a DC fast charger to get 24 kW from one source.

I totally agree with Terry at his point. I checked the specs of the DC fast chargers which are currently put up in Germany/Europe (i.e. ABB). None of these supported voltage below 150V, because there's basically no one needing it. I'm not expecting this to change, so we should look out for other solutions. 

If you look at Tesla, they are currently sending 300A over a Type2 connector to archive 120 kW of charging power. 300A is a lot for a small, detachable connector. Even the new DC standard CCS has a max. amperage spec of 300A, they are going to archive higher charging power with higher voltage. Although I usually don't care much about announcements, Porsche said they will be going to an 800V HV system on their Mission E. If we want really fast charging for our cars in the future, this will be inevitable.

As we have way smaller batteries compared to cars and usually more time when riding the bike, a solution like Remmies FlatpackS "supercharger" seems sufficient. And it shows the power density possible today, although it's not even optimized yet. Active cooling by fans shouldn't be an issue to worry about. With a little rearrangement Zero should be able to mount a 12-20 kW AC charger into the bike even together with a power tank. This would allow quite fast charging already.

Furthermore there are way more Type2 11/22kW charging ports (at least ~5000) in Germany than DC chargers (maybe 400).
Are you talking about the Terra's? All that I have seen are 50-500V.
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anton

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Re: Questions on FastCharging / DigiNow Supercharger
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2016, 12:07:47 AM »

Super charger V2 details and specs along with full testing data will be released within 7 days. After that we will have detailed info on the dates for product arrival and will have a policy of full transparency. So far the V2 and manufacturer seem to be reliable and quality driven as well as able to supply our orders, which EMW was not able to do. Depending on the build a customer wants we currently should have enough to deliver 10 V2 chargers. With another 20 on the way, dates will be openly published and I will not be covering for anyone this time.

Are there any updates on this?
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Electric Cowboy

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Re: Questions on FastCharging / DigiNow Supercharger
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2016, 06:27:11 AM »

we have 15 units in stock and are testing mounting and cooling now.

the higger power chargers require liquid cooling. if that isnt ready by the time i am back from japan we will start shipping smaller charges which can upgrade to higher power by bolting in more units.

so far we have everything working and stable but since the mounting is different we are testing a lot. were also testing different pumps for the system.

the system is fully modular and should be able to fit 19.8 kw on the bike. its fully isolated so the modularity allows the use of multiple jplugs.

our intent is to roll out upgradeable chargers from 3.3 kw all the way uoto 26 once the zero firmware is updated to allow faster charging than 1C.

the reason we would roll out smaller units to start is so you can start charging faster now and upgrade as we are ready.

i am back on the 12th i hope to get some more zeros over here in japan soon.

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Erasmo

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Re: Questions on FastCharging / DigiNow Supercharger
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2016, 01:31:29 PM »

Good to have an update and to know that you're making progress again, have fun in Japan.
Water cooling, neat! Are you using desktop water cooling components? Also modularity, very nice for riders that have access to the European high power AC network.

Last but not least, are there some pictures that are ready to be released?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 01:54:11 PM by Erasmo »
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madcow

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Re: Questions on FastCharging / DigiNow Supercharger
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2016, 01:32:17 AM »

the system is fully modular and should be able to fit 19.8 kw on the bike. its fully isolated so the modularity allows the use of multiple jplugs.

Well, that is seriously some good news. The 10%-85% times are going to be interesting. And as it has been said, we in Europa can then fully benefit from the AC chargers which go up to 43kW (still quite rare).
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MrDude_1

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Re: Questions on FastCharging / DigiNow Supercharger
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2016, 01:38:47 AM »

the system is fully modular and should be able to fit 19.8 kw on the bike. its fully isolated so the modularity allows the use of multiple jplugs.

Will there be some kind of adapter that would allow us to plug in 2 or more J1172 stations for 10kw charging at the common (near me) 5kw locations?....
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Erasmo

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Re: Questions on FastCharging / DigiNow Supercharger
« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2016, 03:04:12 AM »

Two weeks have passed, is there an update yet? I need the dimensions before I can go design a new tail section...
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Electric Terry

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Re: Questions on FastCharging / DigiNow Supercharger
« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2016, 04:38:42 AM »

I heard they are testing different cooling plates and fans, and until those are finalized the dimensions will not be certain for a little while.
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BrianTRice

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Re: Questions on FastCharging / DigiNow Supercharger
« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2016, 06:55:49 AM »

the system is fully modular and should be able to fit 19.8 kw on the bike. its fully isolated so the modularity allows the use of multiple jplugs.

Will there be some kind of adapter that would allow us to plug in 2 or more J1172 stations for 10kw charging at the common (near me) 5kw locations?....

I know that they're interested in supporting this scenario.
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Erasmo

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Re: Questions on FastCharging / DigiNow Supercharger
« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2016, 04:53:37 AM »

Small kick, are there any developments?
I don't mind waiting at all but I'm planning a long trip and it would be neat to know if I can do it in the spring or have to postpone it until the summer so at least a rough estimate would really appreciated.
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Shadow

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Re: Questions on FastCharging / DigiNow Supercharger
« Reply #41 on: December 22, 2016, 07:37:52 AM »

Small kick, are there any developments?

Brandon called last week to follow up on my June 20th 2016 order. Previously I had expressed my concern that I would receive delivery by the end of the US tax year 2016. I expected that he would be confirming my order details for the 11kW Super Charger V1 as ordered. What he offered as an alternative is I could accept a Super Charger V2 system 3kW module now and an additional module later. The manufacturer of the V1 (E-Motor Werks?) is no longer viable to contract with and at least some of the money from V1 orders are presumed to be a loss for Diginow. Support for the V1 would necessarily be a refund. The new manufacturer (Elcon?) is better and development on the Super Charger V2 system has progressed faster than expected. The V2 is currently in production but only the 3kW module is ready now.

He also asked me about Facebook and it sounds like he's made a video with some innovation or announcement. I don't mess with social wankery sites, so maybe one of you book face twitter diddly types can post the details.

Should I have accepted the V1 or to take the offer of the V2?
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dukecola

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Re: Questions on FastCharging / DigiNow Supercharger
« Reply #42 on: December 22, 2016, 08:38:18 AM »

I'm confused. I too ordered a V1 in early July but havent heard anything from Diginow's dealer since then.  What is this 3k V2 charger and what is the "module" that will be added later?  Are these things huge and not compact like the emotorwerks charger?  I just got a single elcon to bridge the gap in the diginow delay, so I at least have additional charging in the spring, but elcon is heavy and huge.
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BrianTRice

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Re: Questions on FastCharging / DigiNow Supercharger
« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2016, 09:39:51 AM »

I'm confused. I too ordered a V1 in early July but havent heard anything from Diginow's dealer since then.  What is this 3k V2 charger and what is the "module" that will be added later?  Are these things huge and not compact like the emotorwerks charger?  I just got a single elcon to bridge the gap in the diginow delay, so I at least have additional charging in the spring, but elcon is heavy and huge.


The V2 unit is a combination of these new Elcon models, the HK-J which each put out 3.3kW as long as they're cooled: http://www.elconchargers.com/catalog/item/9034090/10295140.htm

Two of these units together with the cooling system seem to be smaller than the V1 charger, and easier to configure in the tank area or elsewhere. I've seen these units; they're very compact. I can't make precise claims but I made a quick CAD sketch and the pair together is easily smaller than the V1, and possibly 3 can be fit under the tank, although I think DigiNow has another arrangement in mind.

I'm attaching a screencap of my CAD layout for this comparison.
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Electric Cowboy

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Re: Questions on FastCharging / DigiNow Supercharger
« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2016, 09:47:01 AM »

@dukecola who did you order from, and where are you located?

@BrianTRice I'll send you an actual solid part of the charger for your library of ebike kniwledge.
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