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Author Topic: Questions on FastCharging / DigiNow Supercharger  (Read 11125 times)

mrwilsn

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Re: Questions on FastCharging / DigiNow Supercharger
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2016, 06:07:38 PM »

Just to fill you in a bit more. EMW (electric motorwerks) has been avoiding our contact attempts for over a month now. They have a lot of our money and seem to have no intent to respond to us in any way.

I have heard from other people in the industry that this may be common place for them. And that some people are leaving the company because of this and similar behavior by the owners.

I really had high hopes for working with them, however it seems they were just out to take a lot of my companies money and pretty much all of my savings. I have put everything I had into this, and now that it has been their turn to deliver they have pulled several dirty tricks.

I have covered for EMWs mistakes a lot over the past year because I wanted to believe they could handle manufacturing the super charger for us, and because I thought they were good people. It really hurts my feelings that they would take advantage of me this way when all I want is to advance our industry.

I am a very trusting and honest person, and I will always give people more than one chance, some times too many more chances. It seems I protected EMW for too long taking the heat as digiNow to prevent them from getting a bad name. However it looks like that is exactly what they were counting on.

This was my first experience manufacturing a product at scale and it looks like I made a very bad choice choosing EMW, but I have learned a lot and will never ever be taken advantage of this way again. The world looks a lot less sunshiney knowing there are businesses out there like EMW that seek to take advantage of young entrepreneurs like me and my partners.

If anyone here has recommendations for the appropriate measures to take or can offer assistance I would appreciate your messages. Currently we are discussing going to the federal trade commission, and considering counsel for what I have been told will likely end up in a legal battle. Very depressing :(

The other side of this is that we do have a very small number of Super Charger V1 units left, @erik, im setting yours up tomorrow.

Super charger V2 details and specs along with full testing data will be released within 7 days. After that we will have detailed info on the dates for product arrival and will have a policy of full transparency. So far the V2 and manufacturer seem to be reliable and quality driven as well as able to supply our orders, which EMW was not able to do. Depending on the build a customer wants we currently should have enough to deliver 10 V2 chargers. With another 20 on the way, dates will be openly published and I will not be covering for anyone this time.

My apologies that I have not been more transparent about the issues we were having with EMW, I did not want to speak poorly of them and felt that it was my fault for choosing them. The combination of these lead me to not be as open with all of you as I could have. I promise not to let anything like that happen again.

-EC

Wow.  What a news day!  I'm not sure which is a bigger deal....new controllers for the 2017 Zero lineup or a Super Charger V2?!?!?  The only thing more exciting would have been the announcement of a partnership that put DigiNow Super Chargers in 2017 Zero's as a factory option  ;D  Maybe next year  ;)

I think just about everyone is rooting for the SC business to really take off...I know I am.  I look forward to the day when there are cost effective robust fast charging solutions for any budget.  Let's hope the the switch to the new manufacturer helps to make exactly that happen!  I can't wait to find out more details about the SC V2!!

Also, it's really unfortunate to hear about EMW.  Good to know before I put down any money on a Juice Box.  I hope everything works out for the better and they either give your money back or they deliver the quality built product you paid for.....emphasis on quality.

EC, I think covering for EMW has left you in hiding while you were trying to cover for them.  Welcome back to the forums!
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MrDude_1

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Re: Questions on FastCharging / DigiNow Supercharger
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2016, 08:25:10 PM »

Just to fill you in a bit more. EMW (electric motorwerks) has been avoiding our contact attempts for over a month now. They have a lot of our money and seem to have no intent to respond to us in any way.

I have heard from other people in the industry that this may be common place for them. And that some people are leaving the company because of this and similar behavior by the owners.

I really had high hopes for working with them, however it seems they were just out to take a lot of my companies money and pretty much all of my savings. I have put everything I had into this, and now that it has been their turn to deliver they have pulled several dirty tricks.

I have covered for EMWs mistakes a lot over the past year because I wanted to believe they could handle manufacturing the super charger for us, and because I thought they were good people. It really hurts my feelings that they would take advantage of me this way when all I want is to advance our industry.

I am a very trusting and honest person, and I will always give people more than one chance, some times too many more chances. It seems I protected EMW for too long taking the heat as digiNow to prevent them from getting a bad name. However it looks like that is exactly what they were counting on.

This was my first experience manufacturing a product at scale and it looks like I made a very bad choice choosing EMW, but I have learned a lot and will never ever be taken advantage of this way again. The world looks a lot less sunshiney knowing there are businesses out there like EMW that seek to take advantage of young entrepreneurs like me and my partners.

If anyone here has recommendations for the appropriate measures to take or can offer assistance I would appreciate your messages. Currently we are discussing going to the federal trade commission, and considering counsel for what I have been told will likely end up in a legal battle. Very depressing :(

The other side of this is that we do have a very small number of Super Charger V1 units left, @erik, im setting yours up tomorrow.

Super charger V2 details and specs along with full testing data will be released within 7 days. After that we will have detailed info on the dates for product arrival and will have a policy of full transparency. So far the V2 and manufacturer seem to be reliable and quality driven as well as able to supply our orders, which EMW was not able to do. Depending on the build a customer wants we currently should have enough to deliver 10 V2 chargers. With another 20 on the way, dates will be openly published and I will not be covering for anyone this time.

My apologies that I have not been more transparent about the issues we were having with EMW, I did not want to speak poorly of them and felt that it was my fault for choosing them. The combination of these lead me to not be as open with all of you as I could have. I promise not to let anything like that happen again.

-EC

Having been through this myself... sorry. it sucks.
Couple things to keep in mind.. be careful what you say online right now... Your emotions will get high at times, but you cant say what you want... even if its true.
I learned you always have to keep on top of your suppliers, just like you keep track of a teen working at a store... even the best workers need constant supervision. Sometimes they mean well, but dont always know they are making choices that are not theirs to make.

on a V2 supercharger project.. I didnt see V1 internals obviously, but since its EMW I assumed it used IGBTs... if you are designing a new setup, swapping to a modern SiC power mosfet and running it at high frequency will cut losses and your inductor size.. hopefully to the point you can fit the whole thing in place of the stock charger.  This means you can keep storage, or buy it even if you have a powertank... and the powertank would be even better as it would allow higher rate charging.

of course you could be doing that already, and I just dont know it. You guys are not dumb. lol.
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Richard230

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Re: Questions on FastCharging / DigiNow Supercharger
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2016, 09:20:04 PM »

And don't just jump into going the legal route.  Lawyers tend to charge $350 an hour in California and they seem to take a very long time to really accomplish anything.  Sometimes getting lawyers involved, which you have to do if you decide to go to court, ends up costing more than any reward - and that assumes that you win your case.  It is a tough world out there in the manufacturing industry. And the smaller and less well financed you are the tougher it is.   :(  But whatever you decide to do Electric Cowboy, best of luck in your endeavor!   :)
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BrianTRice

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Re: Questions on FastCharging / DigiNow Supercharger
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2016, 02:09:22 AM »

Thanks for speaking up! I will agree with the comments to be careful about what you state online, although what you've said so far is sufficiently vague.

Regarding trust, the best solution is to have ironclad contracts, and that is where to spend money on the right lawyer; someone experienced in your specific field who can quickly craft contracts tailored for your needs that covers all eventualities. That said, have someone review what agreements you have in place before taking any action or claiming anything concrete in public or online.

I, too, have been hamstrung discussing the process here, and am glad despite the setbacks that you've found a partner that should be easier to work with. I think those with first-gen Superchargers will need to collaborate if we need to keep this equipment running reliably.

At the very least, I feel like what's been accomplished so far is more than sufficient to convince the right angel investor to fund a second generation. I don't have such contacts directly, but can ask around to see who might be available.
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protomech

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Re: Questions on FastCharging / DigiNow Supercharger
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2016, 08:48:37 PM »

Super charger V2 details and specs along with full testing data will be released within 7 days. After that we will have detailed info on the dates for product arrival and will have a policy of full transparency. So far the V2 and manufacturer seem to be reliable and quality driven as well as able to supply our orders, which EMW was not able to do. Depending on the build a customer wants we currently should have enough to deliver 10 V2 chargers. With another 20 on the way, dates will be openly published and I will not be covering for anyone this time.

My apologies that I have not been more transparent about the issues we were having with EMW, I did not want to speak poorly of them and felt that it was my fault for choosing them. The combination of these lead me to not be as open with all of you as I could have. I promise not to let anything like that happen again.

-EC

Very sorry to hear EC. Not what you or the community deserve. Highly unlikely that there was any reasonable way to know that going in.

Looking forward to V2 details, and big props for continuing to push the technology forward.

As far as fast charging and battery life.  A recent test by Farasis comparing degradation of cells with the control sample being a 1C charge, 1C discharge cycle test, and comparing it to a 2C charge (30 minutes full charge) 2C discharge cycle test.  I forget how many cycles, I want to say 500 but can't remember.  Anyway the results may surprise you.

The 2C charge/discharge test showed lower degradation than the 1C cells!!!!

Interesting. Did Farasis publicly publish these results anywhere?

Yes, using the controller connection bypasses the auxiliary charging port limitations; one might charge both through the port and the controller up to 1C limit for the battery you have installed, which for Terry's (2014SR) Zero with a Power Tank is ~14kW, though I believe the nominal capacity 12.5kWh is what determines what 1C is for any continuous charging interval. I'm guessing an interval of 10 minutes is safe/wise but no more than 1 hour for sure, and having the contactor open up on you in the middle of a high power charge like that is potentially dangerous so keep a safety margin. For what it's worth, I've sustained 11kW charging rate on my 2016 DSR without Power Tank where the nominal 1C rate is presumably 11.4kW. But I would not want to get closer to that value than I have so far.

The C rating is current relative to the amp-hour rating.

Terry's 2015 SR w/ Power Tank is nominally rated at 133 Ah. 1C means that it can charge at up to 133A; at 10% actual SOC (3.4 volts per cell) that is 12.7 kW, at 95% SOC (4.1 volts per cell) that is 15.3 kW. These are DC power ratings, AC power will be 10 to 20% higher.

Edit: showing work
3.4 volts per cell * 28 cells in series * 133 A = 12.7 kW
4.1 volts per cell * 28 cells in series * 133 A = 15.3 kW
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 10:45:03 PM by protomech »
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BrianTRice

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Re: Questions on FastCharging / DigiNow Supercharger
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2016, 10:41:22 PM »

Yes, using the controller connection bypasses the auxiliary charging port limitations; one might charge both through the port and the controller up to 1C limit for the battery you have installed, which for Terry's (2014SR) Zero with a Power Tank is ~14kW, though I believe the nominal capacity 12.5kWh is what determines what 1C is for any continuous charging interval. I'm guessing an interval of 10 minutes is safe/wise but no more than 1 hour for sure, and having the contactor open up on you in the middle of a high power charge like that is potentially dangerous so keep a safety margin. For what it's worth, I've sustained 11kW charging rate on my 2016 DSR without Power Tank where the nominal 1C rate is presumably 11.4kW. But I would not want to get closer to that value than I have so far.

The C rating is current relative to the amp-hour rating.

Terry's 2015 SR w/ Power Tank is nominally rated at 133 Ah. 1C means that it can charge at up to 133A; at 10% actual SOC (3.4 volts per cell) that is 12.7 kW, at 95% SOC (4.1 volts per cell) that is 15.3 kW. These are DC power ratings, AC power will be 10 to 20% higher.

That is the clearest explanation of the outcome of C rate limits I have heard so far, thank you. I'll incorporate this into the wiki.

The Zero battery contactor limit must be set/sensed as DC current, then, yes?
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Lenny

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Re: Questions on FastCharging / DigiNow Supercharger
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2016, 12:46:20 AM »

Just to fill you in a bit more. EMW (electric motorwerks) has been avoiding our contact attempts for over a month now. They have a lot of our money and seem to have no intent to respond to us in any way.

I have heard from other people in the industry that this may be common place for them. And that some people are leaving the company because of this and similar behavior by the owners.

I really had high hopes for working with them, however it seems they were just out to take a lot of my companies money and pretty much all of my savings. I have put everything I had into this, and now that it has been their turn to deliver they have pulled several dirty tricks.

I have covered for EMWs mistakes a lot over the past year because I wanted to believe they could handle manufacturing the super charger for us, and because I thought they were good people. It really hurts my feelings that they would take advantage of me this way when all I want is to advance our industry.

I am a very trusting and honest person, and I will always give people more than one chance, some times too many more chances. It seems I protected EMW for too long taking the heat as digiNow to prevent them from getting a bad name. However it looks like that is exactly what they were counting on.

This was my first experience manufacturing a product at scale and it looks like I made a very bad choice choosing EMW, but I have learned a lot and will never ever be taken advantage of this way again. The world looks a lot less sunshiney knowing there are businesses out there like EMW that seek to take advantage of young entrepreneurs like me and my partners.

If anyone here has recommendations for the appropriate measures to take or can offer assistance I would appreciate your messages. Currently we are discussing going to the federal trade commission, and considering counsel for what I have been told will likely end up in a legal battle. Very depressing :(

The other side of this is that we do have a very small number of Super Charger V1 units left, @erik, im setting yours up tomorrow.

Super charger V2 details and specs along with full testing data will be released within 7 days. After that we will have detailed info on the dates for product arrival and will have a policy of full transparency. So far the V2 and manufacturer seem to be reliable and quality driven as well as able to supply our orders, which EMW was not able to do. Depending on the build a customer wants we currently should have enough to deliver 10 V2 chargers. With another 20 on the way, dates will be openly published and I will not be covering for anyone this time.

My apologies that I have not been more transparent about the issues we were having with EMW, I did not want to speak poorly of them and felt that it was my fault for choosing them. The combination of these lead me to not be as open with all of you as I could have. I promise not to let anything like that happen again.

-EC

I'm very sorry for what you experienced, this is really bad. As I'm not living in the states, I can't give any advice how to handle this legally, but at least I want to thank you for not giving up and already presenting a solution. Awesome! I'm looking forward to the presentation of the supercharger V2 next week, you'll have an order from Germany for sure if the specs don't vary from those of V1. Most important thing for us would still be 230V/3-phase AC input.

Thanks a lot for your great work!
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Erasmo

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Re: Questions on FastCharging / DigiNow Supercharger
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2016, 01:06:25 AM »

Can't add anything to the messages above except my best wishes.

I know this message is late for the party but there's some things that I can't keep for myself;
- For the power tank owners the power tank dimensions aren't a limiting factor since it will probably mounted in a top case anyway. I'm guessing a some people would gladly accept a bit larger charger for more powah.
- Please, pretty please, DC(either ChaDeMo or CCS) intake support would be so cool!
If you'd manage to pull that off I will personally fly across the Atlantic to Cal with a suitcase full of stroopwafels for you to come pick it up.
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Skidz

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Re: Questions on FastCharging / DigiNow Supercharger
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2016, 09:23:49 PM »

@Erasmo, I'll sponsor the stroopwafels. And maybe some bitterballen, too.
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evtricity

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Re: Questions on FastCharging / DigiNow Supercharger
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2016, 04:59:13 AM »

Can't add anything to the messages above except my best wishes.

I know this message is late for the party but there's some things that I can't keep for myself;
- For the power tank owners the power tank dimensions aren't a limiting factor since it will probably mounted in a top case anyway. I'm guessing a some people would gladly accept a bit larger charger for more powah.
- Please, pretty please, DC(either ChaDeMo or CCS) intake support would be so cool!
If you'd manage to pull that off I will personally fly across the Atlantic to Cal with a suitcase full of stroopwafels for you to come pick it up.


If a Chademo inlet was supported you wouldn't need an onboard charger anyway as they provide DC current that would go direct to the Zero battery.
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ultrarnr

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Re: Questions on FastCharging / DigiNow Supercharger
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2016, 05:00:24 AM »

Erasmo,

Talk to Tony Williams at Quick Charge Power about CHAdeMO for Zero. It has been on his to-do list for awhile.  He has built CHAdeMO systems for a few electric cars and was going to build one for Zero motorcycles.
 
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Ndm

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Re: Questions on FastCharging / DigiNow Supercharger
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2016, 06:00:11 PM »

I've emailed Tony and his response was that he should have something out next year!
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Erasmo

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Re: Questions on FastCharging / DigiNow Supercharger
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2016, 03:18:09 AM »

Erasmo,

Talk to Tony Williams at Quick Charge Power about CHAdeMO for Zero. It has been on his to-do list for awhile.  He has built CHAdeMO systems for a few electric cars and was going to build one for Zero motorcycles.
I have a semi-working prototype ChaDeMo top case from EVTV, but we have 11-22kW 3 phase charging stations on about every street corner and most places that offer DC charging even have 43kW.
So AC would cover all my charging needs in the city and for destination charging and a lot of motorway charging.
But if DC is available at the location you might even be able to charge even faster than the charger can convert, because it only has to signal the desired Voltage and Amperage to the streetside charger and act as a pass-through, thus creating a lot less heat.

TL;DR AC would be good enough but DC support would be the cherry on top.
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Electric Terry

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Re: Questions on FastCharging / DigiNow Supercharger
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2016, 10:46:46 AM »

I am thinking one potential future of DC charging for Zero will be to use the DC fast chargers as a 300 volt DC bus that goes into the onboard chargers you carry which will get smaller and more powerful over time and so you can eventually get the power of what I used to get plugging into 4 J plugs at the same time, from a single connection.

While there is some hope that both SAE Combo and CHAdeMO will enforce their 50-500 volt specification, I find it highly unlikely as there isn't any other EV that needs it except us and Brammo.  Almost every other one is in the 320-410 volt range.

So simple economics are going to dictate lots of installations.  For instance about 150 SAE DC Combo chargers just got installed stretching from Canada to Mexico along Interstate 5 and Hwy 101 every 25-50 miles.  These units are extremely compact.  However the spec sheet of these chargers shows the DC output spec to be 300-450 volts.

So the likelihood of the DC charging industry ever enforcing going down to 100 volts is probably not going to ever happen.  In fact it's moving up to 1000 volts on the high end is last I heard.

What Zero needs is their own development, or the aftermarket to come up with small, lightweight, inexpensive chargers we can carry with us and stack in parallel.  So we can use 4 J plugs next to each other to charge at 24 kW, or to use a DC fast charger to get 24 kW from one source.

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Lenny

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Re: Questions on FastCharging / DigiNow Supercharger
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2016, 04:44:23 PM »

I am thinking one potential future of DC charging for Zero will be to use the DC fast chargers as a 300 volt DC bus that goes into the onboard chargers you carry which will get smaller and more powerful over time and so you can eventually get the power of what I used to get plugging into 4 J plugs at the same time, from a single connection.

While there is some hope that both SAE Combo and CHAdeMO will enforce their 50-500 volt specification, I find it highly unlikely as there isn't any other EV that needs it except us and Brammo.  Almost every other one is in the 320-410 volt range.

So simple economics are going to dictate lots of installations.  For instance about 150 SAE DC Combo chargers just got installed stretching from Canada to Mexico along Interstate 5 and Hwy 101 every 25-50 miles.  These units are extremely compact.  However the spec sheet of these chargers shows the DC output spec to be 300-450 volts.

So the likelihood of the DC charging industry ever enforcing going down to 100 volts is probably not going to ever happen.  In fact it's moving up to 1000 volts on the high end is last I heard.

What Zero needs is their own development, or the aftermarket to come up with small, lightweight, inexpensive chargers we can carry with us and stack in parallel.  So we can use 4 J plugs next to each other to charge at 24 kW, or to use a DC fast charger to get 24 kW from one source.

I totally agree with Terry at his point. I checked the specs of the DC fast chargers which are currently put up in Germany/Europe (i.e. ABB). None of these supported voltage below 150V, because there's basically no one needing it. I'm not expecting this to change, so we should look out for other solutions. 

If you look at Tesla, they are currently sending 300A over a Type2 connector to archive 120 kW of charging power. 300A is a lot for a small, detachable connector. Even the new DC standard CCS has a max. amperage spec of 300A, they are going to archive higher charging power with higher voltage. Although I usually don't care much about announcements, Porsche said they will be going to an 800V HV system on their Mission E. If we want really fast charging for our cars in the future, this will be inevitable.

As we have way smaller batteries compared to cars and usually more time when riding the bike, a solution like Remmies FlatpackS "supercharger" seems sufficient. And it shows the power density possible today, although it's not even optimized yet. Active cooling by fans shouldn't be an issue to worry about. With a little rearrangement Zero should be able to mount a 12-20 kW AC charger into the bike even together with a power tank. This would allow quite fast charging already.

Furthermore there are way more Type2 11/22kW charging ports (at least ~5000) in Germany than DC chargers (maybe 400). 
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