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[Electric Terry]

So I have a question I'd like to see how people respond.

If the bike could hold extra batteries, who would like that feature?

I recently started carrying my supercharger on my left crashbar, which is exactly the size of a module and it fits perfect.  Which means modules could fit there too.

So, what if you could carry up to 4 extra modules for road trips, who would be interested in something like that?

The modules are 42 pounds each, 4 would weigh about 168 pounds, or about the weight of a passenger with full gear.  So if you are familiar with riding with the weight of a passenger, this would be similar.  But it would add the energy of up to an entire monolith.  Or a good 200 miles highway range between necessary charge stops.  Although you might still wish to stop sooner, but now you could choose to take a longer stretch, or stop for a break somewhere you want where there isn't fast charging for a break and not worry about it.

Batteries are still expensive, although costs should come down one day soon we hope.  But for now, I was thinking you could rent batteries from your dealer for that special trip on your bike.  Although I would expect some serious touring people who are retired would perhaps buy 2 all the time as panniers, and maybe that would be enough.  They could pop in and out like on the FX so you would only put them in for longer trips and for spirited city riding or on the twisties, you could remove the extra weight.

I have found lots of weight doesn't really change highway range at all.  And also extra weight increases the bikes stability on the freeway in relation to bumps (the ratio of sprung to unsprung weight improves), and also decreases the tendency to get affected by wind gusts or passing trucks.  So this is totally in mind of someone taking a long 3-5 day roadtrip and for $250 or so could rent batteries, wake up in the morning and be able to ride 100 miles before lunch and only be at  50% when they stop to charge.  Perhaps now with elcons and the supercharger, extra charging could be rented too, so you could charge 200 miles range in an hour.

Just imagine someone like Ben Rich having 200 miles range and being able to charge in an hour, and being able to travel anywhere?  Think about those 18 hour 500 mile riding days back to back that Ben did this summer becoming easy 600 mile days that are only 12 hours (10 hours riding at 60 mph and 2 hours to charge back 400 miles for the day), or if needed be able to do 1000 miles in a day with four 1 hour charge stops.

Anyway looking to see what others think

[flexydude]

the batteries should be lower down and stick out the sides like the jugs on a bmw, it would keep the cg lower and not look too weird

[Richard230]

I would like more battery capacity, but I would want it incorporated into the stock chassis by Zero.  That would appear to require a completely different chassis, as the current one is pretty well packed.  I don't see Zero designing and manufacturing a new larger chassis anytime soon, although the idea of a battery bulge to either side of the front of the bike, ahead of the foot pegs to accommodate an additional brick, sounds interesting. (Since I have been riding BMW boxers for the past 25 years, they could even put cooling fins on the bulges to make me feel at home.)  I think the best I can hope for in the near future are improvements in battery chemistry, though.

[togo]

I'd be interested.

Indeed, if I could upgrade to the latest Zero and take the bricks from my old one for extended trips on my new one, I wouldn't need to even buy bricks, just a new bike...

(waitaminute...)

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

I'm intrigued but also prefer the BMW boxer proposal, partly because I'd put cooling fins on the side of my main battery. And a fairing should fit around it. (More CAD time to lay this out...)

How would the bike's firmware support this, though? Seems like power tanks have some issues, so there must be some coordination.

[ZeroMark]

Terry - 1. Anything that would allow more uninterrupted range I would be interested in!  I was daydreaming at the recent reunion event that I almost wish that they had an SDS chassis that had the swappable battery compartment of the FXS, and maybe if we were lucky, a battery box for the SDS that wasn't the sealed monolith that we have, but instead one that held from 1 to 4 hot-swappable modules.  Then, not only would your idea of carrying them or even "renting them" from the dealer be attractive, but zero could basically grow the business in both directions by offering like a 1 module SDS motorcycle for a much lower price-point, allowing the customer the ability to grow into longer range as needed by getting more (for example, getting the missing 3 if you buy a bike with a 1 module subsystem.

2. It's clear to me that battery technology is about to take some sort of leap in both capacity, as well as economies of scale-lowering of price.  If a battery in the next few months offers say 4X the capacity and/or costs 1/4 the price, then the 1 module, growing into 4 module type of setup not only makes sense to me, but seems like it should be the highlight of the 2017 product line!  Seems like leapfrog in battery technology is coming like a train very fast so I'd almost prefer to have swappable modules in my SDS so I could run light and lean (imagine shaving 150 lbs off the bike for my daily commute to work and back by only running one module in the SDS bike) but still could drop in the other modules for range when the long distance trip I want to take is before me.

3. Interesting thing if you look up the Mercedes Benz designed SMART CAR, they sell it now with a price that includes NO BATTERIES, and you purchase or "lease" your batteries as a separate agreement.  Makes for interesting pricing, and while the model of the lease doesn't seem to apply to Zero batteries, especially if they outlast the lifetime of the bike, but the idea of treating the battery subsystem like a commodity much like double-AA cells in the real world brings forth some interesting ideas.

4. Although I love the beauty of the SDS style bikes and hate the thought of what seeing an FX-style cage in the SDS frame might look like (compared to the elegant and beautiful monolith) I got to believe that is a cosmetic challenge Zero scientists can easily overcome and win me over on in a future machine.

5. So Yes! Yes! Yes!  Give me a way to plug in more range when I need it - and I'll buy it - because I truly believe that the pendulum on that will go both ways, and we will get range that is adjustable thru ideas like yours (carrying the modules ready to be used), while at the same time gaining the ability to reduce the weight and module count - IF IT MAKES SENSE FOR THE RIDER - in times when the weekly commute can be carried by one or two of them!

6. Will we see the SDS-FXXXXX  in 2017? (S/DS/DSR elegance with the hot-swap battery box) <-I heard "Service" saying that it takes way to long to put in the 5th module into the tank area so they could start by making that a hot-swap drop in - especially if battery capacity goes up in the very near future!

7. One last thought I've not heard anyone comment on but was curious about was the idea of the "range extender" technology like the Chevy Volt originally came out with.  The idea that you'd have some small ICE engine turning a big fat electrical GENERATOR  that in turn was pumping electricity into my battery modules on the zero while I'm traveling down the road.  (Forget about the way Chevy tied the ICE motor into the drive train, which was for other reasons non-essential to this discussion)  That generator subsystem on the Volt kicks in when the batteries reach 33% charge and basically with the tiny ICE running a generator feeding the batteries; it gives that Volt about 10X the distance.  That type of setup on anything besides the volt is something I'd like to explore.  Heck-locomotives that do the heavy work on the rail network across the USA have powerful electric motors powered by what?  Batteries that are fed from a generator in the same engine compartment fed by a diesel generator!  Sure-A Zero making ICE noise wouldn't be a Zero anymore, but if I could sit that little ICE box down in place of your "module" and hook it to my battery charging subsystem, I wonder how far I could go, and how quiet I still could be.

8. Oh yeah--my Smartphone can either be recharged by plugging a cord into it, or by getting it "in close proximity" to a charging station that provides that function.  I wonder if A) it's possible to charge a zero that way-no or in some not to distant future - and b) will we ever see a day when driving down the road and stopping at a plate in the road, near an intersection - or heck even blowing past it on the side of the road - could provide the charging or boost that we need to keep us all moving on down the road....  If my phone can do it-how about my bike?

-But YEAH - gimme swappable in my S/DS/DSR so i can have more range and I'll ride with ya - side by side - and we will start a new ZEROSTURGIS together.  One where Electric motorcycles and their owners come together after riding long distances using every creative way imaginable!  Including your way of carrying those extra modules!  I'm in and up for it and willing.

Mark Hripko

[ctrlburn]

A temporary accessory that added more battery is a good idea. But that special weekend trip that presses the range definitely is a niche to fill.

I don't need to take extra battery everyday in my commute, so a permanent installation is not attractive.

I think I am more likely to end up in a situation where a need a little more range, rather than having a fast charge on the way.  That is I don't like to stop, I'm nearing the age where stopping is getting appealing.


http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5287.msg37264#msg37264

[dukecola]

I would guess most motorcycle riders do not take long trips, they take day trips. I only take day trips, my ice friends only take day trips, so I would want a range capacity where I could make a day trip without charging.  For me who only rides with a passenger, my current range is about 120miles. Most of my trips are just a bit over that range so being able to strap on a add-on battery would be be priceless. Only thing better would be more availability of fast charging.

[Patrick Truchon]

For me, I'd prefer to have the Super Charger "permanently" integrated into the bike (in the tank) and extra batteries to be swapable.

For most trips, I don't mind not being able to make it all the way there if I can charge fast and keep going.  The short 45 min breaks are actually nice so having a permanent Super Charger is key.

But there's actually a few destinations that I can't currently reach with my 11.4kWh pack right now because the charging stations are too far apart.  Being able to add even just 2 extra battery packs for those occasions would open up even more riding opportunities.

Question: putting the structural problem aside, how does connecting extra packs to the controller work in terms of software?  Do you have to change anything or can you just add more capacity the bike just sees the voltage drop more slowly and computes the percentage left from that?

Call me interested!

[KrazyEd]

   I don't do a lot of riding these days, so my FX fills most of my riding needs.
When I was riding more, A loop around the lake or to the mountains, or,
even both would take between 100 and 200 miles. When Laguna Seca
was having good events, I would ride there each year, around 500 miles
each way. The shorter of the rides could be handled by a Big S or DS
but, sadly, not my My FX. This is fine with me as I bought my FX for
what it is, not what it isn't. A light fun commuter bike. It commutes perfectly.
I am fortunate enough to have space for other bikes to do the other rides
if I feel the need / desire. If I had the opportunity to buy an electric
motorcycle that weighed 300 lbs. and could go 500 miles per charge on the
highway, I would of course look at it. but at this point in time I
am not aware of any. I didn't go with the S or DS as I have enough
bikes in that weight range. There are very few vehicles that meet 100%
of what someone looks for. Kind of like a life partner I guess.
If we wait until we find someone who possesses everything we seek,
we will  most likely die alone. If I waited for the BEST computer ever,
I would still not have one today. Look at all the fun and productivity  I
would have  missed by not having one ( or dozens by now ).
We get what meets out need and hopefully a little more, then
when something comes along that is better enough, we upgrade.
The journey is often as much of a reward as the completion of the trip.
Given the above, I guess I would have to put my answer in the INTERESTED
but not going to hold my breath category.

[Electric Terry]

Great responses, keep them coming if you haven't chimed in yet.

Good stuff, and very interesting to compare to what the current FX owners show which is most have never removed a battery, not even to make it lighter with just one.  But I think the difference is the FX needs both modules to have the safety and security to go anywhere to begin with.  An S/DS type bike with a monolith already, it would be nice to have a "powertank" (or 2, 3, or 4) but remove the weight for most commuting, but add it when taking, as was said, long day trips. 

I know some people who like the feel of the S/DS better without the powertank, and that's just 1 module.  And some like the weight of the 3 brick better than that of the 4 brick.

I love the idea someone said above of being able to buy a bike less expensive with only 1 battery and be able to add more and more and more as time goes on and you want to go farther and can afford it.  Although I think 50 miles range is the minimum safety net of range most want even for short commutes so you have the ability to take the long way home.  So maybe 2 bricks to be the minimum and the ability to add 2 more bricks later or on the weekends, if it were quick and rather easy to do.   Also the effort to take time to remove 42 pounds or add 17-41 miles range perhaps was too much effort for what it was worth, especially since it meant a power loss at higher speed.  So many factors with human behavior.  In the end I think we are inherently lazy, and to add or remove batteries would need to make a rather large or significant difference in range vs weight.  I still like the idea of popping in a powertank module on each side in a well designed pannier case that is designed robust to hold the weight, and protect the battery in the event of a tip over.  Right away you could take a 4 brick bike with 100 miles highway range and visit the dealer, pop in 2 more modules and make it 150 highway miles range real quick.  I can see many might just buy the two powertank modules for this purpose so they could have the range all the time.

As we heard from Abe's presentation at the 10th anniversary event, each "brick" can do about 20 kW so if you bought a bike with only one battery power would be limited to begin with but that would give you 2 reasons to upgrade soon. more power and more range.

There is a constant battle with making a bike cost less to produce and offering options.  It seems the biggest obstacle right now for most motorcyclists is the high price of entry even though lifetime cost might be a lot less.  Someone mentioned buying the bike and leasing the batteries like the Smart car does.  Not sure if that would turn out best and get more motorcyclists to buy a Zero or not.

If batteries ever become less expensive and the pressure to have a low cost bike isn't as severe, I think the system of having completely modular batteries and chargers makes the most sense as the Nirvana we could all hope for.  Own one motorcycle, but use it one way for the Monday-Friday commute keeping it as fast and nimble and flickable as possible, and on Saturday morning throw in more batteries and head out on a 200 mile ride.  Even if it meant stopping by the dealer on Friday afternoon to rent extra batteries for the weekend.  I could easily see the FX and FXS demo bikes being single module bikes for demo rides each and every Saturday at dealers all over.

I see in the other thread linked above that protomech mentioned the appeal of renting touring accessories like fast chargers was of interest to him also.

Although one day maybe this wont be necessary, when recharge time can get down to 5-10 minutes, and range can be 150 miles on the freeway, and fast charging locations can be at every exit, there won't be a need to add batteries for long day trips.  But I would say we are still a long ways away before that happens so trying to plan a modular battery system in a S/DS type platform that can transform the short range commuter bike into a longer distance weekend sport touring bike makes a lot of sense and looks like all roads are pointing towards that direction.  Figuring out how to do that so it is quick and easy to swap and looks good and is protected by the bike frame are all challenges.  But it sounds like if those can be accomplished that everyone is interested.  Good to know.

Anyone else have any ideas?

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

So, more or less, if a number of FX battery bricks could be harnessed reliably with the main pack, and held safely in a good position for a while, that's 42lbs per brick and 25 lbs for a supercharger or two, so up to 200lbs extra weight on the forward part of the frame and partly the main battery pack itself. You'd need a really good sturdy extension to the frame that distributed the load (much more robust than the crash guard mounts), and a really reliable system for electrically harnessing them together.

I say reliable because the rental proposal needs some normalization to keep losses low; it's either that or an ownership model where the extra batteries can be house batteries when not used for travel to recover the investment. It's definitely ambitious!


We should sketch a feasible design; I've been doing mockups in a CAD environment for various things lately and wouldn't mind trying to figure this out in concert with fairing mounts.


I'll point out that the underlying rule that makes this work for travel is that charging is limited by C rate, so adding batteries doesn't make charging slower if you can channel in that rate. That's where DC charging would help out immensely.

[MrDude_1]

Instead of a new bike or adding bricks where theres not much room... what about a low, single wheel streamlined trailer that held the modules?

keep it off 90% of the time.. then for those longer runs, you just trailer up and plug them in.  They couldnt be directly plugged in of course.. diffrent state of charge on the batteries, and the current surging from acceleration... but a robust 60a DC DC converter onboard could charge the batteries at the same rate they were being used on the highway... and then the same connector-charger could act as another charger when charging the bike.

like this but smaller and sleeker:


maybe shaped more like this with a wheel at the back:

[Chief_Lee_Visceral]

I would be interested if it were like others said, an option to install for special trips kind of thing. I would also be concerned about how the weight affected handling. 200 miles is the typical range between fillings on ICE tourers so I know how that plays out well.

[NEW2elec]

Great idea Mr Dude, that I had 12/4/2015
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5287.msg37169#msg37169

Feel free to look it over as I thought it got a little traction and had some good ideas thrown in.