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Author Topic: Unconventional Thought: What about slower charging?  (Read 777 times)

ctrlburn

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Unconventional Thought: What about slower charging?
« on: July 01, 2016, 10:52:56 AM »

It's 11:30pm and I was rearranging the garage a little bit. The Zero is at 92% charge and the cables are warm as we are all familiar.

Why be fully charged at 1am?  I don't need a full charge until 7am.

In the marketing hype of "charge time" driving power demands to the limits of a nearly dedicated circuit has the function been overlooked?

Why stress for a 6-7 hour charge when I won't leave for 13-14 hours?

A couple times a year I get that "after work errand" where I leave on a partial charge, and end up taking it easy to get home at 14%.

More power to the DigiNow I don't want to cheapen that awesomeness. (well a little cheaper)
There is a merit to be FAST, but is there a merit in being HALF FAST? (say that fast a few times)

I've demo'ed enough old wiring to find brittle wires (even at code) from ongoing heavy loads over time.

For all those with circuit breakers tripping, or a mid sized solar, or concern about long term impact on wiring. 

"What options or thoughts for charging slower?"
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BrianTRice

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Re: Unconventional Thought: What about slower charging?
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2016, 11:09:04 AM »

The 2013 has the Mean Well arrangement of 2 parallel stacks of 2 chargers in series, so a little rewiring with a disconnect switch rated for the load could halve your onboard charger's intake on demand.

I guess for later model years the Calex charger is not really set up to downgrade. You could make a stack of 2 Mean Wells for external charging at half rate.

For true overkill, the digiNow can dial down power intake in kW by an accessible setting and is very controllable that way; I regularly set exactly 0kW or 1kW for testing, but it's more precise than that. I would guess from observation that it can control down to a 50W error band at these levels; on the other hand, the fans themselves draw 40W. You would need a 120V-J1772 converter for home use, though (which it's probably time I figure out).
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KrazyEd

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Re: Unconventional Thought: What about slower charging?
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2016, 11:19:44 AM »

I believe that if you were to lower the voltage. My QuiQ charger
says 100-240v. I know that the upper end is capped with no significant difference between
120 and 240, but, with less voltage, it MIGHT charge a touch more slowly again, probably
not significantly. You could always use a timer, but that wouldn't alleviate the heating problem.
Are you experiencing heat with stock cord, or, with extension cable?
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ctrlburn

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Re: Unconventional Thought: What about slower charging?
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2016, 05:31:22 PM »

Are you experiencing heat with stock cord, or, with extension cable?

Stock cable, no extension cord. 
Does yours not get detectably warm?  I presumed everyone's did.
Anyway no need to dwell on the precepts.

Dumbing down a DigiNow , yes that is overkill.

If I can't fool the onboard charger into engaging the "slow near the top" charge much earlier by any means.

Can I slow down a QuiQ Charger?  It says selectable charge profiles.

« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 05:38:25 PM by ctrlburn »
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Kocho

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Re: Unconventional Thought: What about slower charging?
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2016, 06:15:46 PM »

I want to have the same option for similar reasons, but also to be able to share circuits or to use a much longer and / or lighter weight extension cord. It also stresses the charger less. Makes a lot of sense to have that option.

The answer I've heard here is that it is possible to reprogram the 2014+ chargers on the S/D/R bikes, but it's not done in a way you'd be switching between high and low power at a whim. With my Vectrix, I could set that (and a lot more) using a combination of "magic sequences" between the brakes and the throttle. I could also set a charging delay so the bike has had a chance to cool-off or use night tariffs, I could set the capacity of the battery (so the gauge would be calibrated more accurately), turn off my headlight, etc.
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MrDude_1

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Re: Unconventional Thought: What about slower charging?
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2016, 06:34:12 PM »

Are you experiencing heat with stock cord, or, with extension cable?

Stock cable, no extension cord. 
Does yours not get detectably warm?  I presumed everyone's did.
Anyway no need to dwell on the precepts.

Dumbing down a DigiNow , yes that is overkill.

If I can't fool the onboard charger into engaging the "slow near the top" charge much earlier by any means.

Can I slow down a QuiQ Charger?  It says selectable charge profiles.

There is no real advantage to it. Sure you dont need to charge that fast, but by bringing it up at its current slow-but-reasonable speed they also give themselves time to balance.

as for your stock cable getting warm, what is your household voltage?

Assuming you're in the USA, its called 110/115/120, but can easily range from 100 to over 123.
The stock charger is 1300watts.

So doing the math:
at 120v its 10.8 amps
at 115v its 11.3 amps
at 110v its 11.8 amps
at 105v its 12.3 amps
at 100v its 13 amps

That means that while most people will not feel the 14ga cable get warm with their 11amp ish draw.. you may feel it get warm as you pull closer to 13 amps.

If you use a voltmeter on your socket, you should get an idea what your household voltage is.
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NEW2elec

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Re: Unconventional Thought: What about slower charging?
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2016, 06:46:06 PM »

I go through a Kill A Watt meter so I pull high 10 to low 11 amps once it gets warmed up and mine will get pretty darn warm near the power outlet.  But as a theory would slower charging help the on board charger and or the battery?
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Kocho

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Re: Unconventional Thought: What about slower charging?
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2016, 06:50:50 PM »

I guess - yes. How much and is it meaningful - I am don't know. The onboard charger does get warm during normal charging and probably warms-up the battery above it too. Anything to keep things cooler on a warm day or night would help.

as a theory would slower charging help the on board charger and or the battery?
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MrDude_1

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Re: Unconventional Thought: What about slower charging?
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2016, 07:08:19 PM »

I go through a Kill A Watt meter so I pull high 10 to low 11 amps once it gets warmed up and mine will get pretty darn warm near the power outlet.  But as a theory would slower charging help the on board charger and or the battery?

No. Your battery is capable of being charged at a rate almost 5 times faster than it is currently being charged, without any measurable degregation.
So it is already slowed down significantly.

Slowing it further might seem useful if you're trying to make charging as efficient as possible, but then you might not leave it time to balance. Mentioned above, if it finished at 1am and you leave at 7am, thats 6 hours to balance a HUGE pack that may need up to 12hours  if its really out of wack. (unlikely, but possible as time goes on)


To me, "slower charging" is plugging it into the wall. Normal charging is faster.
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Richard230

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Re: Unconventional Thought: What about slower charging?
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2016, 08:31:44 PM »

When I visit my daughter, I plug into her red 50' extension cord with my 10' charging cable and recharge my 2014 S.  Things get a little warm at the connectors, but so far nothing has burned up and after the 40-mile ride to her home my bike is fully recharged in 4 hours.  :)  I'll be doing that again tomorrow.  ;)  My stock on-board charging system is working so well that I worry about it sometimes.   ::)
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Doug S

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Re: Unconventional Thought: What about slower charging?
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2016, 08:40:38 PM »

I'd have to agree with MrDude, the "standard" charge is very, very gentle already, at least as far as the batteries are concerned. And it's a good thing to leave it hooked up for hours after charging, to give the BMS plenty of time to balance the cells. Cell balance is always a good thing.

I can see some benefit in slower charging if the wiring in your house is old and decrepit, or if you're on a limited-power system (such as solar). I think the only way to "throttle back" the charge rate is with an external charger, and my choice would be the Diginow charger. My understanding is the charging current can be dialed way back by the app...and of course it would give you the opportunity to fast charge when the opportunity/need arises.

But when I was done charging slowly, I'd plug the onboard charger in, to allow the BMS to balance the cells. Depending on how it's hooked up, the external charger might not allow the BMS to do that.
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Phocks

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Re: Unconventional Thought: What about slower charging?
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2016, 02:36:04 PM »

Are you experiencing heat with stock cord, or, with extension cable?

Stock cable, no extension cord. 
Does yours not get detectably warm?  I presumed everyone's did.
Anyway no need to dwell on the precepts.

Dumbing down a DigiNow , yes that is overkill.

If I can't fool the onboard charger into engaging the "slow near the top" charge much earlier by any means.

Can I slow down a QuiQ Charger?  It says selectable charge profiles.

There is no real advantage to it. Sure you dont need to charge that fast, but by bringing it up at its current slow-but-reasonable speed they also give themselves time to balance.

as for your stock cable getting warm, what is your household voltage?

Assuming you're in the USA, its called 110/115/120, but can easily range from 100 to over 123.
The stock charger is 1300watts.

So doing the math:
at 120v its 10.8 amps
at 115v its 11.3 amps
at 110v its 11.8 amps
at 105v its 12.3 amps
at 100v its 13 amps

That means that while most people will not feel the 14ga cable get warm with their 11amp ish draw.. you may feel it get warm as you pull closer to 13 amps.

If you use a voltmeter on your socket, you should get an idea what your household voltage is.

I have found that my household power outlet or as they are more often referred to in Australia GPO (general power outlet) has a typical 230volts AC and that the current draw while charging is around 5.8amps. The supplied Zero charging cable does not heat up at all and when I use a much smaller diameter PC cable nominally rated at 7.5amps that does not warm up as well.
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Kocho

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Re: Unconventional Thought: What about slower charging?
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2016, 06:52:33 PM »

Yup! At 240V you get almost 1/2 as little amperage vs. what we draw in the US. You could use a longer, thinner, lighter, cheaper cable or extension cord. That's one key benefit of a "slower" charging option.
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MrDude_1

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Re: Unconventional Thought: What about slower charging?
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2016, 08:45:21 PM »

Are you experiencing heat with stock cord, or, with extension cable?

Stock cable, no extension cord. 
Does yours not get detectably warm?  I presumed everyone's did.
Anyway no need to dwell on the precepts.

Dumbing down a DigiNow , yes that is overkill.

If I can't fool the onboard charger into engaging the "slow near the top" charge much earlier by any means.

Can I slow down a QuiQ Charger?  It says selectable charge profiles.

There is no real advantage to it. Sure you dont need to charge that fast, but by bringing it up at its current slow-but-reasonable speed they also give themselves time to balance.

as for your stock cable getting warm, what is your household voltage?

Assuming you're in the USA, its called 110/115/120, but can easily range from 100 to over 123.
The stock charger is 1300watts.

So doing the math:
at 120v its 10.8 amps
at 115v its 11.3 amps
at 110v its 11.8 amps
at 105v its 12.3 amps
at 100v its 13 amps

That means that while most people will not feel the 14ga cable get warm with their 11amp ish draw.. you may feel it get warm as you pull closer to 13 amps.

If you use a voltmeter on your socket, you should get an idea what your household voltage is.

I have found that my household power outlet or as they are more often referred to in Australia GPO (general power outlet) has a typical 230volts AC and that the current draw while charging is around 5.8amps. The supplied Zero charging cable does not heat up at all and when I use a much smaller diameter PC cable nominally rated at 7.5amps that does not warm up as well.
That's because you run double the voltage of the US, so you have half the amperage.
Wattage remains unchanged.
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firepower

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Re: Unconventional Thought: What about slower charging?
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2016, 08:52:18 PM »

Charging slower can actually do more damage. longer it takes to charge more  parasitic chemical damage over time.

Why do Li-ion Batteries die ? and how to improve the situation?



« Last Edit: July 04, 2016, 08:54:15 PM by firepower »
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