ElectricMotorcycleForum.com

  • February 21, 2018, 07:30:49 AM
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Electric Motorcycle Forum is live!

Pages: [1]

Author Topic: 2015 DS throttle hand fatigue  (Read 988 times)

evdjerome

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
2015 DS throttle hand fatigue
« on: April 01, 2016, 06:01:44 AM »

So I've owned 3 other motorcycles and 2 maxi-scooters over the last 23 years. I've never experienced a throttle that was so difficult to hold open as my 2015 DS (demo model). It is progressively harder to hold open the more you twist it. Most of my 45 minute commute now is at 70+ mph and by the time I get to my destination my index finger is almost asleep.

Anyone else experiencing this? What to do?

My favorite throttle of all the 2-wheelers I've owned was on my 2012 DS. It was a dream. If it was warm enough out (over 60F or so) and I was on a flat section I could let go and it would remain where it was, effectively like cruise control. I felt I had very fine control over my speed with the 2012 DS throttle. My 2015 is constantly fighting to snap closed.
Logged
2015 Zero DS 12.5
2012 Zero DS 9 (sold)

rayivers

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 442
  • electric feels so right
    • View Profile
Re: 2015 DS throttle hand fatigue
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2016, 06:44:04 AM »

Maybe you could try asking the company that makes it?

Bitron

I rarely get replies to inquiries like this, but it might be worth a try.

Ray
Logged
'14 Zero FX 5.7 (now 2.8, MX), '14 Zero FX 2.8 (street), '08 YZ250F, '82 RM250Z, '75 MR175, '74 CR125M (175cc)

BrianTRice

  • Unofficial Zero Manual Editor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2378
  • Nerdy Adventurer
    • View Profile
    • Personal site
Re: 2015 DS throttle hand fatigue
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2016, 07:20:10 AM »

I use a Crampbuster ($10), partly because the DSR torque comes on pretty easily and I wanted to make finer motions and hold the throttle steadier. But it does reduce fatigue.

I've used throttle locks in the past, like Kaoko, but those typically require model-specific fittings and Zero won't make their support list. So, I'm inclined to transfer my Go Cruise ($20 for the composite model) to the Zero for real highway throttle locking once I'm trying to ride all day.
Logged
Zero: 2016 DSR, 2013 DS
Also: 2012 Suzuki DL-650 V-Strom Adv

Killroy

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 385
    • View Profile
Re: 2015 DS throttle hand fatigue
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2016, 10:39:46 AM »

I use a Crampbuster ($10), partly because the DSR torque comes on pretty easily and I wanted to make finer motions and hold the throttle steadier. But it does reduce fatigue.

I've used throttle locks in the past, like Kaoko, but those typically require model-specific fittings and Zero won't make their support list. So, I'm inclined to transfer my Go Cruise ($20 for the composite model) to the Zero for real highway throttle locking once I'm trying to ride all day.

+1  I think the spring rate on the throttle is a little high on the Zero  I have seen other users with Cramp busters or similar.

I want one for my short 25 min commute. 

 
Logged

evdjerome

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
Re: 2015 DS throttle hand fatigue
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2016, 05:45:53 PM »

Thanks for the tips on Crampbuster. Although I'm leaning towards replacing the throttle instead.

Does anyone know if the Domino throttle is less fatiguing (lower spring rate)?

Is it possible to replace the 2015 DS throttle with a 2012 DS throttle?
Logged
2015 Zero DS 12.5
2012 Zero DS 9 (sold)

rayivers

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 442
  • electric feels so right
    • View Profile
Re: 2015 DS throttle hand fatigue
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2016, 05:57:01 PM »

My Domino throttle has less spring resistance and friction than the OEM Magura on the other FX, and also the '15 SR throttle as well (IIRC, it's been a while since I rode the SR).  The Domino uses a potentiometer instead of the Hall-effect active device in your Bitron throttle, so I don't know about compatibility with the 2015 DS.

Ray
Logged
'14 Zero FX 5.7 (now 2.8, MX), '14 Zero FX 2.8 (street), '08 YZ250F, '82 RM250Z, '75 MR175, '74 CR125M (175cc)

Richard230

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5096
    • View Profile
Re: 2015 DS throttle hand fatigue
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2016, 08:50:49 PM »

You could also place an "anti-vibration" foam wrap around the grip, such as the Grip Buddy. That would make the grip larger thereby providing more leverage and less of a curvature for your fingers.  I use them on three of my motorcycles (it works really well on my Royal Enfield) and have been satisfied with the quality and usefulness of the foam wrap.  Easy to install and easy to remove. The going price is about $25 for a set and they have a number of different sizes to fit different size grips.
Logged
Richard's motorcycle collection:  2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2016 BMW R1200RS, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 (FZS1000N) and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

evdjerome

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
Re: 2015 DS throttle hand fatigue
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2016, 05:41:48 PM »

Well so I spoke briefly with Harlan on the phone yesterday. He didn't know of any replacement throttle for the '15 DS. And he said any replacement would require reprogramming the controller. So that's out for me. I'll take the suggestions here and get a Crampbuster.
Logged
2015 Zero DS 12.5
2012 Zero DS 9 (sold)

methods

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
    • www.SchindlerEngineering.com
Re: 2015 DS throttle hand fatigue
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2017, 09:39:39 PM »

Well so I spoke briefly with Harlan .... he said any replacement would require reprogramming the controller. So that's out for me. ...

back from the dead - with the Technical Answer  (as opposed to the short answer....  which end up being the same but may be of some interest)

Reprogramming of the controller is not that big of a deal.
Very minimal changes need to be made to the throttle map to convert back to 5K pot from Hall.
You can rent a CAN dongle for $50, pull the DCF, change it quickly, and flash it back.
No change to behavior on the bike...  other than a slightly different throttle mapping.

Since the hall sensor was dual output...  you may have some trouble with the MBB...  which is another story.  With the two signals they had the opportunity to either run both into the Sevcon as a differential input or run one to the Sevcon and one to the MBB.  I would have to pull up the DCF to see which direction they went.

Safety is always first, but it seems that as time goes on the Zero is becoming more and more dependent and integrated with the MBB.  This is fine for meeting requirements but it goes in the opposite direction of modularity and any chance of getting a foothold in other markets.  It also impedes owners ability to perform modifications...  which is close to my heart  (no desire to ride anything stock).

My understanding is that the two hall signals are inverted.
The one that goes into the Sevcon is straight forward.
If the other goes to the MBB...  for a comparison...  they would either have to send *both* analog signals or the MBB would have to read the throttle state off the CAN...  which would just make for CAN clutter...  so I am guessing that both signals go to the MBB (if they do).  In that case they may just be doing difference math (which means a dual pot would work) but more likely they have it bound top and bottom...  which means to make the dual pot work (without reprogramming the MBB) you would need to run inline resistors at both the top and the bottom to bound the voltage swing such that it matches the hall output swing. 

There would be no way to measure the linearity (Pot is likely linear while the hall has a curve to it).

So the hack is:
1)  Remove dual hall throttle
2)  Flash new DCF
3)  Attach dual pot throttle
4)  If no errors, great.  If errors then calculate and add inline resistances to top AND bottom of both pot's
5)  Test thoroughly...  (dont just go out and wrap it with your fingers crossed  ::))

For Honda's and the like infinite "black box" solutions popped up over the years to allow folks to do as they please with minimal fuss.  With something as sketch as the throttle on a 80hp peak electric bike...  I would be hesitant to attach any black boxes that were not very well documented.  If one existed and it was documented it would look like this:

1)  Potted box (must be IP67 or better)
2)  Pigtails coming out that emulate the dual hall throttle
3)  Pigtails coming out that mate to the dual pot throttle  (or cut both to cover multiple years)
4)  Box reads the 5K voltage swing and maps it to a Hall swing
5)  Done - guaranteed to work perfectly
6)  Disclaimer - off road use only...  do not use ...  etc. 
7)  Cost?  After initial engineering a box like that costs $20 to make so $50 retail...  until the Chinese copy it...  then $30 retail.

From a modification standpoint...  one wants access to the MBB software.  Never seen it myself other than looking over the shoulder of Peter or Nate (I purposely never checked it out from the repository as my major is in Software and I did not want to see any conflict of interest crop up.  Whats in the box is not rocket science by any means.).  I could duplicate it and replace the MBB but it would be 6mo work (after) the initial reverse engineering.  Not worth it.  Most people just reflash their DCF to eliminate the RPDO's, rewire the contactor, and have complete control over their bikes - tho with some feature compromise.  A bit more rewiring may be required for anything running through the MBB...  like profile select.

We currently do not include anything like an MBB in our Sevcon powered equipment...  but we are getting there...  as the limitations of the Sevcon bump up against the safety requirements of such a powerful system.  There is a big difference between putting out something OEM and modifying (safely) something that is OEM.  One shoulders all the responsibility while the other is "off road" or experimental.

Someone, somewhere could probably hack an older model MBB into your 2017... one which was suitable for a 5K pot...  but that would be a pretty bass ackwards way of doing it.  Likely fail.

Sounds like Harlan was right.
Its a No-Go.
Bummer...  because I know that the best Zero engineers are Modders at heart.

I have a 2013 SR but I dont own it and I am not interested enough to mod it on hobby time.
If anyone wants to see a sketch of how its done...  let me know.
I would not do it with an Arduino unless you have lockouts...  its one of those rare instances where you keep in the analog domain...  as its a simple level transition (scaling) with upper and lower bounds.

-methods

methods

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
    • www.SchindlerEngineering.com
Re: 2015 DS throttle hand fatigue
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2017, 09:48:23 PM »

P.S.

They may also send both signals into the MBB and then drive the CAN bus to an RPDO in Sevcon such that the analog throttle signal never reaches the Sevcon.  Makes for a hell of a lot more CAN traffic.  No idea what they did... and if someone told me I pushed the "forgetter" button. (worked classified over 10 years under the NNSA.  You learn to forget what you dont have a Need To Know for.)

I dont have any DCF files later than 2016...  so if you have one...  please upload it to the repository
http://www.schindlerengineering.com/public/repository/

Anyone, anywhere, can walk up to a Zero, pull the DCF using any number of tools, and there is nothing wrong with that.  If Zero did not want that...  then they should have selected a non-open platform.  Hell...  the DCF even comes out in human readable ASCII so... 

-methods

Keith

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 243
    • View Profile
Re: 2015 DS throttle hand fatigue
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2017, 05:07:35 AM »

Throttle wiring on my '16 FX has both signals going directly to the Sevcon. http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6966.msg57299#msg57299
Logged
2016 Zero FX, 2014 KTM 1190

Rugby4life

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 72
    • View Profile
Re: 2015 DS throttle hand fatigue
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2017, 09:36:48 PM »

I test rode a '17 last week and was impressed with its performance. The only thing that kept me from pulling the trigger were 2 ergo issues. The first was seat comfort which I believe can be cured with a Corbin seat. The second issue is the return spring on the throttle. I have ridden daily for over 30 years and 31 bikes. I can't remember a bike who's throttle made my hand go numb more quickly. Granted I've had carpal tunnel for years but have been able to still do 1k days with the help of a throttle lock to give my right hand a break. I've never been comfortable with a cramp buster device but have had good success with bar end throttle locks. If there is no throttle replacement available, I'd have to know there is a throttle lock that fits before I could justify buying the bike. Somebody find a solution so I can get bike #32.
Logged
"Before attempting to beat the odds, first determine if you can survive the odds beating you."

evdjerome

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
Re: 2015 DS throttle hand fatigue
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2017, 04:08:17 AM »

See http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6204

I test rode a '17 last week and was impressed with its performance. The only thing that kept me from pulling the trigger were 2 ergo issues. The first was seat comfort which I believe can be cured with a Corbin seat. The second issue is the return spring on the throttle. I have ridden daily for over 30 years and 31 bikes. I can't remember a bike who's throttle made my hand go numb more quickly. Granted I've had carpal tunnel for years but have been able to still do 1k days with the help of a throttle lock to give my right hand a break. I've never been comfortable with a cramp buster device but have had good success with bar end throttle locks. If there is no throttle replacement available, I'd have to know there is a throttle lock that fits before I could justify buying the bike. Somebody find a solution so I can get bike #32.
Logged
2015 Zero DS 12.5
2012 Zero DS 9 (sold)

gyrocyclist

  • Zero. Because motorcycles should be seen and not heard.
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 146
  • a.k.a, Dave Whoami
    • View Profile
Re: 2015 DS throttle hand fatigue
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2017, 06:16:40 AM »

I use a Crampbuster ($10), partly because the DSR torque comes on pretty easily and I wanted to make finer motions and hold the throttle steadier. But it does reduce fatigue.

I've used throttle locks in the past, like Kaoko, but those typically require model-specific fittings and Zero won't make their support list. So, I'm inclined to transfer my Go Cruise ($20 for the composite model) to the Zero for real highway throttle locking once I'm trying to ride all day.
I got a Crampbuster a couple of months ago. It's not perfect, but it helps. And at $10 it's a bargain.

My hand goes numb very quickly on long rides (2016 SR). For comparison, two weeks ago I went on a very long ride on my 500cc Aprilia scooter -- which I haven't been riding much since I got the Zero. After a few hours I realized I had no numbness! I hope the Zero company takes notice, and goes with a better throttle in the future. Seems this should be a fairly minor cost ...
Logged
2016 SR
2016 Honda CB500X
a.k.a, Dave Whoami
Pages: [1]