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Author Topic: Loud pipes save lives?  (Read 3069 times)

MichaelJohn

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Loud pipes save lives?
« on: January 25, 2016, 10:17:17 AM »

Help me out guys. Just before Christmas I bought myself a present, a Leo Vince slip-on for my Honda NC700. It is not obnoxiously loud but it is much louder than the stock pipe which made the bike sound like a sewing machine. The Honda really wasn't much louder than my SR. Well, maybe not that quiet but the little noise that it did make had no character at all. Now it has a nice deep rumble that I am really enjoying. I know that "loud pipes save lives" is a contoversial statement and I have never thought it was much more than Harley justification. My bike is nowhere near Harley loud or screaming sport bike loud but I have to admit that I feel a little safer out in traffic, especially lane-splitting and passing. I have noticed that people do react to the sound. Now when I am cruising through a parking lot with pedestrians walking in all directions people hear me coming and get out of the way. The Zero (and the stock Honda) sneaks up on people. When I ride at night now I almost always take the Honda because I feel safer on it (plus it has a better headlight!). Between the Zero and the Honda I think I was beginning to crave a little exhaust noise being an old gearhead from the musclecar days. So I got my aural gratification along with an unexpected side effect. I love my SR, but lately I have felt much safer on the Honda simply because I think I am being noticed more and in my mind every little bit helps. Do any of you guys have the same experience when you get on a gas motorcycle? Am I deluding myself? Any and all opinions welcome.
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BeezrGeezr

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Re: Loud pipes save lives?
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2016, 10:39:37 AM »

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Pprior

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Re: Loud pipes save lives?
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2016, 10:46:26 AM »

Loud pipes do not save lives they just annoy the hell out of other people.


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MichaelJohn

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Re: Loud pipes save lives?
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2016, 11:15:57 AM »

Here ya' go!

http://www.kotulas.com/deals/gifts-and-gadgets/gifts-on-a-budget/turbospoke-bike-exhaust-system

This is 'tongue in cheek' but maybe not.

Well you got me. I had one very similar to that on my Huffy when I was a kid.
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mrwilsn

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Re: Loud pipes save lives?
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2016, 12:04:28 PM »

This philosophy puts the riders safety in the hands of the drivers of the other vehicles on the road.  It relies on the ability of the other vehicles to hear the rider in order to prevent the vehicle from doing something like pulling out in front of the rider or cutting the rider off.  In my opinion there are several flaws with this philosophy.

1. Other vehicles on the road can't always hear the rider even with loud pipes.  Distractions like music, GPS, phone conversations and even conversations with passengers prevent the drivers from hearing the rider no matter how loud the pipes are.  These drivers can't even hear emergency vehicles that have sirens that are designed to cut through the constantly improving sound proofing in vehicles and all the distractions previously mentioned.

2. There are many drivers that will pull out in front of riders or cut them off even when they hear the riders loud pipes.  They hear the rider but they are going to do these things anyway.

3. A major cause of injury to riders resulting from other vehicles is getting rear ended while the rider is stopped.  This is caused by any number of distractions or other factors.  It happens to vehicles and motorcycles equally.  Loud pipes do not help prevent this type of accident.  The safest thing you can do as a rider is to nestle yourself between other vehicles so that if there is a collision you are less likely to take a direct hit and although you may still get hit and injured your injuries can be minimized.  Unfortunately, the laws in the US make this illegal in most of the country.

I would agree that there are examples when hearing a riders loud pipes prevents a driver from accidentally pulling out in front of the rider or cutting the rider off.  For me personally, I ignore these examples.  Thinking that another vehicle will act appropriately because they hear my loud pipes hampers critical thinking when the other vehicle doesn't hear my loud pipes or do something dangerous anyway.  I don't want lull myself into a false sense of security in other vehicles ability to hear me.  I choose to focus on ensuring that I am prepared to react to as many bad scenarios as I can think of for any given situation.  I am constantly analyzing my surroundings and running scenarios in my head so that I already know what I am going to do when the dangerous situation develops.  I choose to try and constantly improve my riding skills rather than relying on others driving skills.  My worry would be that even if I have excellent riding skills, I am not prepared to use them in a critical moment because I am expecting the driver to hear my loud pipes.

The situation is the same if you are talking about a pedestrian or bicycle rider except kind of reversed.  Assuming you are wearing good protective gear, they are likely to get more injured than you are but you can both end up injured and counting on the ability of the pedestrian or bicycle rider to hear the rider puts safety in the hands of the pedestrian or bicycle rider rather than taking personal responsibility for my actions as a rider.  It is my responsibility as a rider to make sure I am not endangering others just as much as its my responsibility to take ownership of my own safety.  Once again, relying on the pedestrian or bicycle rider to hear me means I may not be prepared to use my riding skills in a critical moment.  But if I am the pedestrian or bicycle rider I am not relying on motorcycles or other vehicles to see me to stay safe.  I am equally engaged in analyzing my surroundings based on the level of risk (i.e. I don't generally listen for cars when I'm walking down my hallway  ;D ).

I admit that I am a long time lover of the sounds of ICE motorcycles.  I have my favorites but the sound of just about any motorcycle can bring a thrill to my heart.  Especially if I am hearing it while I am the rider.  This comes from exposure since birth to the connection between speed and sound.  The loud exhaust provides the sound that becomes attached to the spectacle of speed.  The sound of exhaust enhances the experience for a spectator.  When the spectator becomes the rider the sound enhances the ride because the riders brain is remembering previous experiences where they were the spectator.  It's pretty interesting from a psychological point of view.

But even if it isn't helping or you just aren't relying on it and you are staying prepared to use your skills at all times, it can't hurt to have loud pipes right?  Maybe it can.  Having a quieter motorcycle means its easier for the rider to hear other vehicles and other things in the environment.  The ability to hear these things can be used to the riders advantage to provide important situational awareness.  Better situational awareness gives the rider more time to apply riding skills to avoid dangerous situations completely or to get out of dangerous situations with minimal injury.

Many people have told me they think my Zero is the most dangerous motorcycle on the road because its so quiet.  Of course, it's not completely silent and in my opinion this is completely backwards.  I think electric motorcycles are much safer for riders than ICE motorcycles.  Just based on noise alone.  When you then take into consideration the following added benefits, in my opinion it is overwhelmingly safer than an ICE motorcycle.

1. No gear changing in an electric motorcycle.  This means you can more easily use the throttle as a tool to separate yourself from dangerous situations.  You don't even need to think about what gear you are in thus its not a factor in the equation.

2. No transmission in an electric motorcycle.  This means you don't need to even think about whether or not you need to apply a clutch when you are braking.  Again, not a factor in the equation.

3. The hot parts on electric motorcycles aren't in positions that can burn the rider and they don't reach anywhere near the temperature of an ICE motorcycles hot parts.  Avoiding hot parts isn't a factor in the equation.

Although I still love to ride ANY motorcycle I have the opportunity to throw a leg over, I feel much safer on my Zero than I do on any ICE motorcycle.  And to top it off, there are many reasons an electric motorcycle is more FUN to ride than an ICE motorcycle.  But that's a separate topic completely  ;D
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 12:25:21 PM by mrwilsn »
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Re: Loud pipes save lives?
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2016, 01:14:21 PM »

Strangely, I'm commuting in the same county, in Oakland, and really feeling well-enough noticed on the Zero. I lanesplit nearly every day; cars pull aside for me when I know they can't hear me. Of course, I'm more cautious on rainy nights, but I wouldn't trust exhaust noise to keep me safe on those nights, anyway.

I'm basically with mrwilsn on this point: focus on your awareness and ability to react instead of relying on others to notice you.
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MostlyBonkers

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Loud pipes save lives?
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2016, 02:28:41 PM »

A very good post there mrwilsn. I'm also +1 on everyone else's comments too. It's a resounding 'No' I think.

I'm glad you raised the subject Michael. I'd like to add that in my experience of commuting into London, I've found that the traffic treats you like you treat it. People are very good at reading body language and riding style has it's own language too. If you enter that conversation with a loud obnoxious pipe, you can expect an appropriate response. On the other hand, if you ride like you walk, like a gentleman I'd presume, other road users are more accommodating. They're also more chilled about life and more likely to forgive small errors.

A loud pipe is like the driver listening to Eminem at full volume with the window down, to most people. Very few appreciate the noise and it just makes them feel tense. It adds stress to the equation and many people don't perform well under stress. Especially the kind of driver that isn't very confident in the first place.

I'd say loud pipes risk lives is more appropriate.

The acid test will be my commute. I'm already convinced that loud versus quiet pipes makes not one dot of difference, other than to antagonise. Now I've just gone silent around town will put that hypothesis to the ultimate test.

Many road users struggle to tell where the sound is coming from, especially in built up areas where there are lots of buses and other traffic. I think many just filter out the noise in their heads too. There's so much other background noise that they just switch it all off and think about dinner or the next pair of tits bouncing by... [emoji4]
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 02:32:14 PM by MostlyBonkers »
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CrashCash

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Re: Loud pipes save lives?
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2016, 05:30:53 PM »

FWIW, I've ridden my SR as my daily ride for a year now, and I've not noticed any difference, good or bad, in driver's behavior versus riding my ICE bikes with various Toomey, Spec II, Kerker, Acropovic, or whatever pipes.
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CrashCash

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Re: Loud pipes save lives?
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2016, 05:40:19 PM »

Thinking about it, I have noticed a big difference in following distances.

Normally people in Orlando just plain ride my ass. Hard. 5-10ft following distances at 55mph in a 45 zone.

It seems the first time I use regen braking, they back way off, like a car length or so.

I'm not brake-checking anyone, I'm just rolling off when the guy in front of me slows down a bit.

For comparison on an ICE, I never use engine braking. I pull the clutch in and brake with the brakes.
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benswing

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Re: Loud pipes save lives?
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2016, 05:57:04 PM »

Research shows no difference in accident rates between loud bikes and quiet ones.  Additionally I can hear the car noise around me on a Zero making me safer.

http://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/stop-saying-loud-pipes-save-lives


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BenNelson

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Re: Loud pipes save lives?
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2016, 08:16:53 PM »

I would say that the more information a driver/rider has about other vehicles, bicyclists, and pedestrians around him, the better. Hearing a motorcycle is better than NOT hearing a motorcycle, however since it seems like almost all cars have air conditioning, the windows are rolled up all the way in summer and winter. Combine that with the radio and other distractions, and a car driver isn't likely to hear any difference between an electric motorcycle and a gas one. Driving tends to be a VISUAL task. I think that wearing bright colors on a motorcycle is a good idea. Pedestrians in a parking lot can be challenging. They are as distracted as drivers now, since they just walk around with their heads down looking at the smart phone, AND may be wearing headphones as well. I have experimented with running an MP3 player on my homebuilt electric motorcycle playing a looping sound effect through some small speakers. It usually (but not always) gets pedestrians attention. Back to the visual aspect of things; Many gas cars nowadays are very quiet - especially in a parking lot when the engine is idling, and the driver hasn't pulled out of a parking space yet. Those are cases in which I wish everyone had daytime running lights or that full-time headlight use was mandatory. Having the lights on is a really good visual indicator that a vehicle is attended, on, and ready to move.
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BenNelson

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Re: Loud pipes save lives?
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2016, 08:29:13 PM »

Ah yes, the other thing that I forgot is that motorcycle mufflers point the WRONG direction!

I may have missed this earlier in the thread, but when I'm in my car, going fast, and motorcycles pass me, I generally don't hear them until they ARE PASSING me. I'm generally pretty good about scanning the horizon in front of me, but if I happen to be a little day-dreamy right then, it can even be STARTLING to suddenly have that loud noise right next to me.

If the "loud pipes save lives guys really want to be heard", the mufflers should point forward to project the sound towards where they are going.

I recently purchased a Mitsubishi iMiEV electric car. It has a noise-maker on it. There's a small speaker that points forward and it makes a UFO noise any time you are in gear, up to I think 22 miles per hour. The thought on that is that the sound is mostly for parking lots and intersections where there would be crosswalks & pedestrians (possibly blind ones.) Once the vehicle is traveling any reasonable speed, the tires and wind make more noise than the the UFO sound effect makes anyways. At speeds 25 mph and faster, a person crossing the street really needs to be LOOKING rather than listening for traffic anyways, just because of how fast it moves.
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Electric Terry

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Re: Loud pipes save lives?
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2016, 08:43:43 PM »

+1 Great points mrwilson!!!!

I hear people with gas bikes say it all the time, but it just isn't true.  I've ridden about 400,000 miles on gas bikes, and about  100,000 on electric motorcycles now and I'll never ride another bike that makes noise for my own safety.  I want to hear what's going on around me to the best ability I have.  I don't ever want to trust another driver to hear me.  The day I believe they hear me and don't, there will be trouble for me.  I'd rather not take that risk.  I trust my riding and my senses to know my surroundings. 

I will say I've met a few backwoods, redneck type, really old Harley riders who aren't the brightest star in the sky if you catch my drift.  These guys that stumble when walking and can't turn their head without losing their balance and falling over, and then take 10 minutes to crawl their 325 pound bodies back to an upright position again.  The ones whos friends toss them a beer and they hold their hands to block their face instead of even trying to catch it because they know they don't have good hand eye coordination.  The ones who can't balance on a bicycle, yet ride a Harley.  Have I described this well enough?  You know what I mean right?  I haven't seen any of these types in California, although I'm sure they are here somewhere, but there were a bunch in North Carolina.  Not exactly like that but I sort of put them all together for my description.

Anyway my point is that these guys probably have had their lives saved from their loud pipes before.  And they probably wouldn't do so well on an electric motorcycle.  Most of these guys end up in wheel chairs from crashes despite their loud pipes eventually, but I'm sure it bought them a little extra time before their bad crash.

For those of us who can ride a bicycle, turn our head without getting dizzy, and can catch a tennis ball, I think we are safer if we don't have a loud pipe imparing our own hearing.  With many many miles on 2 wheels I am convinced that I am safer when I can hear and make my own decisions to accelerate, brake or turn completely on my own.   Spending even 500 milliseconds wondering whether a driver knows i'm there or not, is 1/2 second I'm not maneuvering myself as to not let it even be a concern.

The only time I've noticed it would be helpful to make some noise is in a grocery store parking lot, but then again I have a horn for that if I need it.  And it's less than 2 mph.  Doesn't really justify the "Loud pipes save lives" helmet sticker.  Maybe "loud pipes help old grandmas with almost dead batteries in their hearing aids from slamming on their 4 wheel drum brake, white wall tire, pre-catalytic converter cars and tipping over their grocery bags in the back seat"  Now there's a sticker that might have some real truth behind it! :)

Honestly tho, if for some reason you feel safer on your NC700 with a loud pipe than on the Zero, you have to go with that feeling. Many of us would probably feel safer on the Zero, but only you know how you feel and there may not even need to be a logical explanation behind it as long as it gives you confidence to feel safer and react faster.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 09:00:39 PM by Electric Terry »
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Richard230

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Re: Loud pipes save lives?
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2016, 09:53:02 PM »

My only complaint about my quiet Zero is when trying to pass bicycle riders on narrow back roads.  They tend to wander all over the road and sometimes will make a U-turn without looking because they don't hear a vehicle coming (I assume). I would love to use my horn to let them know that I am behind them and trying to pass, but around here (for some reason) that gets bicycle riders really mad so I avoid doing that. So far I haven't hit one yet and I hope I can continue to avoid a collision with a bicyclist. Sometimes a little noise can help.   ???
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