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Author Topic: Upgrading brakes  (Read 1327 times)

dansheibley

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Upgrading brakes
« on: December 29, 2015, 10:14:42 PM »

Wondering if anybody has advice as to the benefit or drawback of doing dual rotor front brakes on the zero 2016 S with power tank. I just traded in my 2012 S. I'm a safe driver, however am always looking for utmost safety because my career depends on my ability to stand and use my hands (type of surgical specialty). If either of those were compromised I'd be out of luck (and on my disability insurance). 1) would this be a worthwhile upgrade? 2) could any motorcycle shop do this properly without f'ing up the bike? 3) This is nothing i'd attempt to do on my own. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Also, if it would be something smart to do, what type of motorcycle shop would I take it to to ensure the best quality job - Dan
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MrDude_1

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Re: Upgrading brakes
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2015, 10:37:28 PM »

Wondering if anybody has advice as to the benefit or drawback of doing dual rotor front brakes on the zero 2016 S with power tank. I just traded in my 2012 S. I'm a safe driver, however am always looking for utmost safety because my career depends on my ability to stand and use my hands (type of surgical specialty). If either of those were compromised I'd be out of luck (and on my disability insurance). 1) would this be a worthwhile upgrade? 2) could any motorcycle shop do this properly without f'ing up the bike? 3) This is nothing i'd attempt to do on my own. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Also, if it would be something smart to do, what type of motorcycle shop would I take it to to ensure the best quality job - Dan

On the street you can stop just as quickly with a single front rotor as you can with a dual front rotor.

The only reason sportbikes have twin rotors is for the track. When you're doing limit braking over and over on corners, the heatload can get too high with a single rotor. On the street, there is no difference than aesthetics.

 I used to race a HawkGT, it  had a single 316mm rotor. It worked on the track, but pads wore fast and by the end of the session it would start to fade. It was popular to mod to the smaller twin rotors of the CBR. Todays bikes have twin 320mm rotors and dont overheat on the track. Way overkill.



As far as your hand protection goes, get the absolute best gloves (and rest of the gear) that you can.  Gloves are more important than most people think... the first instinct we have is to use our hands to catch ourselves.. when crashing, even at low speed, this can be pretty bad if you dont have real protective gloves on. I personally wear Dainese gloves (kind of overkill) but not everyone likes them... supposedly Knox makes "the best gloves in the world" but I cant vouch for them as I havent ever put a pair on... but they're also worth looking into.
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Lipo423

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Re: Upgrading brakes
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2015, 11:30:20 PM »

Zero should add dual brake in an early future, this is out of question…I have had this conversation with industry professionals and I was told it should be the case…when you reach the level of performance they are in / overall weight it is mandatory.

I upgraded myself my former 2012S. The stopping power increased significantly vs stock, but today with the new 2015/16 brakes the performance improvement change is not that significant
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2270.0

Now, concerning your case…difficult call. I see two options:
First one: If you really want to do this you are going to find yourself in a tricky road.
- Certification/homologation (not sure how this goes in the US, but in Europe you would lose bike certification if you change/modify your brakes
- Price. You need to find a company to perform the job (normally small specialized companies that support racers or modding…it will not be cheap…(new bike fork, disks, dual calipers, radial pump, testing, certification…)
- Handling. You nee to make sure you get a proper dual brake fork, so the bike handling/geometry does not change (unless you want to do so)

Advice?

Do not do it.

The second and cheaper/easier option if you still want to improve braking/reduce your hands effort/fatigue.
Speak to a proper/good motorcycle shop, ask them to:
- Get you softer brake pads
- Evaluate a change in your pump for a high quality radial model -Brembo or similar- (if the stock calipers would allow this with what's available in aftermarket)
- Check the disk and evaluate to get one -if it can be done- with a higher quality steel
- Get high quality leather gloves with the proper size (yes, I know it sounds obvious, but your case requires this more mandatory)
- Get handlebar hands protections/covers (not sure how to say this in English)
« Last Edit: December 29, 2015, 11:35:27 PM by Lipo423 »
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BenS

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Re: Upgrading brakes
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2015, 12:15:23 AM »

On the street you can stop just as quickly with a single front rotor as you can with a dual front rotor.

The only reason sportbikes have twin rotors is for the track. When you're doing limit braking over and over on corners, the heatload can get too high with a single rotor. On the street, there is no difference than aesthetics.

 I used to race a HawkGT, it  had a single 316mm rotor. It worked on the track, but pads wore fast and by the end of the session it would start to fade. It was popular to mod to the smaller twin rotors of the CBR. Todays bikes have twin 320mm rotors and dont overheat on the track. Way overkill.
Really? Then the test these guys did must be flawed? http://www.superstreetbike.com/how-to/removing-front-brake-rotor-doesn%E2%80%99t-affect-stopping-distance-mythbusters?image=0

I don't feel that two rotors is overkill on the street on my GSXR1000!

[modified quote]"Personally I find the dismissal of EV complexity two rotors an insult to the engineers that work at it."[end modified quote]
« Last Edit: December 30, 2015, 12:28:04 AM by BenS »
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Doug S

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Re: Upgrading brakes
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2015, 12:26:02 AM »

For me, it's less about braking power and more about brake steer. On my bike, a 2014 SR, the fork very perceptibly twists when the front brake is applied hard, which causes the bike to steer slightly. You get used to it pretty quickly, and your riding reflexes deal with it, but it's definitely there. I very much preferred the straight braking my old ZX-11 and CBR600 exhibited with their dual front discs. Braking power is adequate on my bike but I'd definitely prefer a perfectly neutral braking tendency.
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Cortezdtv

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Re: Upgrading brakes
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2015, 12:31:58 AM »

You have to make a tripple clamp, and then go buy cbr600 or any dual rotor front assembly


Talk to harlen he has done it!



When I did it I machined a new fork head center bolt, i didnt go after something that I wanted dual rotors for, but you have to do the exact same thing I did to acheive the results you want.


Woth your bike becUse you already have show you have a third option

Your lucky with that standered size 49mm shock you should be able to just slip in somethjng of similar size wihout machining anything


Anyone have a list of street bikes that use dual rotors and 49mm diameter forks???
You could just buy t and blot it up, takeing the master too!!
Make a mount for the guages headlight and you would be good to go!!!

And then sell your Showa on your bike to get the money needed for the swap
(to me to fund your project!!! I need that front wheels, axle... Etc)


Easy as pie

There is another thread where a great member listed all interchangeable for sizes for 13,and 14 fast ace stuff, maybe we should get the 49mm swaps in there
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MrDude_1

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Re: Upgrading brakes
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2015, 12:33:23 AM »

Really? Then the test these guys did must be flawed? http://www.superstreetbike.com/how-to/removing-front-brake-rotor-doesn%E2%80%99t-affect-stopping-distance-mythbusters?image=0

I don't feel that two rotors is overkill on the street on my GSXR1000!

Thats exceptionally interesting as it doesnt follow what my experience was on the track.
But to followup.. I point you only to my humble hawk.
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BenS

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Re: Upgrading brakes
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2015, 12:36:50 AM »

Really? Then the test these guys did must be flawed? http://www.superstreetbike.com/how-to/removing-front-brake-rotor-doesn%E2%80%99t-affect-stopping-distance-mythbusters?image=0

I don't feel that two rotors is overkill on the street on my GSXR1000!

Thats exceptionally interesting as it doesnt follow what my experience was on the track.
But to followup.. I point you only to my humble hawk.
With more weight and more power(speed) comes the need for more braking power!
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Burton

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Re: Upgrading brakes
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2015, 01:51:56 AM »

There is another thread where a great member listed all interchangeable for sizes for 13,and 14 fast ace stuff, maybe we should get the 49mm swaps in there

49 Suzuki RM-125 T/V/W/X (96-99)
49 Suzuki RM-125 Y (00)
49 Suzuki RM-250 T/V/W/X (96-99)
49 Suzuki RM-250 Y (00)
49 Suzuki DR-Z400 E Y- K4 (00-04)

Who could that have been? http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4714.0
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Kocho

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Re: Upgrading brakes
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2015, 05:09:13 AM »

I think the test is indeed flawed. They don't mention if they can lock-up the front wheel with a single rotor. If they can't the brake is underpowered, where I bet on the Zero you guys can lock the wheel/activate the ABS every time - but if not, the brake is underpowered. They also kept the "unused" caliper in the system. That would produce a spongier brake feel vs. the same setup with the second caliper removed completely. Lastly, probably a single disk on a dual disk setup is likely under-specified. A single-disk setup would have a beefier disk and a better caliper with more pad area than would "half" dual disk setup with one disk removed...   

On the street you can stop just as quickly with a single front rotor as you can with a dual front rotor.

The only reason sportbikes have twin rotors is for the track. When you're doing limit braking over and over on corners, the heatload can get too high with a single rotor. On the street, there is no difference than aesthetics.

 I used to race a HawkGT, it  had a single 316mm rotor. It worked on the track, but pads wore fast and by the end of the session it would start to fade. It was popular to mod to the smaller twin rotors of the CBR. Todays bikes have twin 320mm rotors and dont overheat on the track. Way overkill.
Really? Then the test these guys did must be flawed? http://www.superstreetbike.com/how-to/removing-front-brake-rotor-doesn%E2%80%99t-affect-stopping-distance-mythbusters?image=0

I don't feel that two rotors is overkill on the street on my GSXR1000!

[modified quote]"Personally I find the dismissal of EV complexity two rotors an insult to the engineers that work at it."[end modified quote]
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BenS

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Re: Upgrading brakes
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2015, 07:44:53 AM »

I think the test is indeed flawed. They don't mention if they can lock-up the front wheel with a single rotor. If they can't the brake is underpowered, where I bet on the Zero you guys can lock the wheel/activate the ABS every time - but if not, the brake is underpowered. They also kept the "unused" caliper in the system. That would produce a spongier brake feel vs. the same setup with the second caliper removed completely. Lastly, probably a single disk on a dual disk setup is likely under-specified. A single-disk setup would have a beefier disk and a better caliper with more pad area than would "half" dual disk setup with one disk removed...   

On the street you can stop just as quickly with a single front rotor as you can with a dual front rotor.

The only reason sportbikes have twin rotors is for the track. When you're doing limit braking over and over on corners, the heatload can get too high with a single rotor. On the street, there is no difference than aesthetics.

 I used to race a HawkGT, it  had a single 316mm rotor. It worked on the track, but pads wore fast and by the end of the session it would start to fade. It was popular to mod to the smaller twin rotors of the CBR. Todays bikes have twin 320mm rotors and dont overheat on the track. Way overkill.
Really? Then the test these guys did must be flawed? http://www.superstreetbike.com/how-to/removing-front-brake-rotor-doesn%E2%80%99t-affect-stopping-distance-mythbusters?image=0

I don't feel that two rotors is overkill on the street on my GSXR1000!

[modified quote]"Personally I find the dismissal of EV complexity two rotors an insult to the engineers that work at it."[end modified quote]
My post was aimed at the sportbike statement: "The only reason sportbikes have twin rotors is for the track...On the street, there is no difference than aesthetics". I wasn't saying that a single front rotor is not enough on a ZERO S.

Regarding the test, good point, I have to agree, having the second line and caliper still on the system, especially if it doesn't have braided lines, does appear to be a flaw, unless they used a line locker, but that wasn't mentioned, and the extra parts should really have been completely removed for a proper test. And another slight flaw is that the bike is still carrying the weight of the extra rotor, caliper and line.

Regarding the single rotor being under-powered, I'd say definitely. Sportbikes are quite heavy, and one rotor at the stock size, I highly doubt would be enough to lock up the front wheel. There is only just enough room for the calipers to be removed without removing the front wheel, so larger rotors are out of the question, unless they wanted to do mount the rotor to the outside of the rim, but they've obviously chosen not to, and have gone for two.


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Richard230

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Re: Upgrading brakes
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2015, 09:28:43 PM »

I for one, certainly don't want a front brake that will lock up the wheel on dry pavement. I always thought that the reason for dual disc brakes was to control overheating and brake fade under severe usage and not an attempt to create a brake system that would lock up the front wheel.   ???
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NoiseBoy

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Re: Upgrading brakes
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2015, 01:29:07 AM »

I have to reason that the test was hokum.  I had a ZX6R years ago and that had 6 piston calipers on a 320 rotor each side. The braking power from just one of those calipers is astonishing and more than enough to lock the front wheel or send the bike pivoting around the front axle in any conditions.  My 150KG KTM 690SM had a 4 pot brembo on a single disk and would stand the bike on its nose from 100-0mph with one finger.

I would like to see the test repeated with a modern ABS fireblade or something, so the rider could just grab a handful and let the ABS worry about it.  Its more than possible that the rider simply wasnt squeezing the lever hard enough with only one caliper because they were used to the feel of twin rotors.  My understanding is that you only need two rotors when braking repeatedly in extreme situations like the 170mph back straight at Le Mans.  Even somewhere like the tail of the dragon you would have to be riding incredibly dangerous to overheat a good single caliper with a quality pad.
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BenS

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Re: Upgrading brakes
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2015, 04:43:11 AM »

I have to reason that the test was hokum.  I had a ZX6R years ago and that had 6 piston calipers on a 320 rotor each side. The braking power from just one of those calipers is astonishing and more than enough to lock the front wheel or send the bike pivoting around the front axle in any conditions.  My 150KG KTM 690SM had a 4 pot brembo on a single disk and would stand the bike on its nose from 100-0mph with one finger.

I would like to see the test repeated with a modern ABS fireblade or something, so the rider could just grab a handful and let the ABS worry about it.  Its more than possible that the rider simply wasnt squeezing the lever hard enough with only one caliper because they were used to the feel of twin rotors.  My understanding is that you only need two rotors when braking repeatedly in extreme situations like the 170mph back straight at Le Mans.  Even somewhere like the tail of the dragon you would have to be riding incredibly dangerous to overheat a good single caliper with a quality pad.
I s'pose a test like that is never going to be perfect, unless it's fully controlled in a lab. I could try doing the test myself, but I trust that the engineers know what they're doing, and I won't be going to a single rotor on my GSXR. One thing to remember, is that race bikes don't just use a stainless rotor and street legal compound pads, they use other stuff like carbon fibre etc, etc.

A 690SM is different to a sport bike; the height and lighter weight, and weight distribution will make it easier to endo. A friend has one, and when riding twisties, the 690 has nowhere near the acceleration or weight of my GSXR, so it needs better stopping power. The advantage of the motard is that they can corner faster. A ZX6R doesn't have the power or weight of a 1000.

I have read too, that the twin rotor design is to prevent overheating and give a more consistent feel. If you're doing around 300kmh, that is when the twin rotors and better heat dissipation will come into play, and very likely why they're on a sport bike, and not on Motards. So, it depends a lot on what you call street/road riding. Some public roads have no speed limit restrictions.

This would be so much easier if we could just call Mr. Honda, and the other big 4, and ask them!!!
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johnphillips390

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Re: Upgrading brakes
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2015, 12:11:26 PM »

Hi there

Sorry if I'm in the wrong section, but it is brake related
I've just done a 3000km service check on my 2015SR. My only problem was a low speed squeal from the front brake. I roughed over the pads and applied copper based grease as I've done with all my other bikes and all was good for 60kms, but the squeal is returning.
I've decided a change of pads is required and I read somewhere in the forum of alternative organic pads being used. Can anyone tell me the part number/manufacturer of these?

Many thanks in advance for your help

Cheers

John


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