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Author Topic: Improvement possible for 2017 ZERO  (Read 4621 times)

jef.jakobs

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Re: Improvement possible for 2017 ZERO
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2016, 02:05:58 AM »

I was considering adding a GearBrake. It has all Zero 2015 models except the fx listed as being compatible. What's holding me back is that I'd have no idea if it's working, since I can't see my own break light :)


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BrianTRice

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Re: Improvement possible for 2017 ZERO
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2016, 02:29:42 AM »

I was considering adding a GearBrake. It has all Zero 2015 models except the fx listed as being compatible. What's holding me back is that I'd have no idea if it's working, since I can't see my own break light :)

Testing it (beyond ensuring basic functionality and setup in a garage) is difficult. I found a straight unlit road at night and unlocked the seat and then tested it up and down this little stretch of road by looking in my mirror as I used it. It helped to pass parked cars which would reflect the brake light more clearly.

For what it's worth, the most reliable / easily tested functionality is that when you tap the brakes, the driver behind gets a few flashes before it goes solid. The accelerometer functionality can be tuned beyond that; you just set it up in a garage so that it doesn't enable when it shouldn't.
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jef.jakobs

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Re: Improvement possible for 2017 ZERO
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2016, 03:35:23 AM »

I do like those flashes before it goes solid. Maybe we can add that to the wishlist for the 2017 Zero. In the mean time I might go for that GearBrake after all.


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ZEM Tahiti

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Re: Improvement possible for 2017 ZERO
« Reply #33 on: March 15, 2016, 02:02:11 PM »

KEY : some people stared at the key saying it looked more like a padlock key!
As the bike uses lot of high  tech device , a remote key that you can keep in your pocket or bag would be coherent with the  general idea of ZERO (Bluetooth/ Regen) ? My 2008 Honda Forza has that device and it worked almost perfectly (almost because of the battery inside !)
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ZEM Tahiti

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Re: Improvement possible for 2017 ZERO
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2016, 02:14:28 AM »

Lateral stand: I rode a BMW scooter 600 lately and I found a very good point with the lateral stand. As soon as it is down, parking brake is applied, so no extra switch or lever. 
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ZEM Tahiti stands for Zero Emission Motorcycles in Tahiti. Our island size is perfect for the electric range.

Cortezdtv

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Re: Improvement possible for 2017 ZERO
« Reply #35 on: June 30, 2016, 08:12:21 PM »

Did nobody notice?


Seen them at refuel
Seen it in a pphc bike that placed second

Pics are on the zero fb site.... Figured you all would be stirring the pot with this upgrade.... Wow im jealous if I only had two of thoes big fuckers i could easily make my next project
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protomech

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Re: Improvement possible for 2017 ZERO
« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2016, 07:26:21 AM »

Did nobody notice?


Seen them at refuel
Seen it in a pphc bike that placed second

Pics are on the zero fb site.... Figured you all would be stirring the pot with this upgrade.... Wow im jealous if I only had two of thoes big fuckers i could easily make my next project

Talking about this bike?



Lots of changes on the bike.. not sure which "big fucker" you're referring to. Different wheels and brakes, steering damper, chain, rearsets..
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protomech

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Re: Improvement possible for 2017 ZERO
« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2016, 09:41:40 AM »

Btw.. some thoughts for 2017. Wild, speculative guessing ahead.


Zero introduced the $650 FX / $1000 S "Fuel for Life" promo pretty early in the sales year, in April. They extended it through May, and then rebadged the promotion as their "10th Anniversary Savings" through the end of July.

What happens after July? As with other temporary promotions that are ended - see Georgia LEAF sales, or Denmark Tesla sales - expect a sales crash once a widely publicized promotion ends.

As the riding season winds down and the promotion expires, one of a few things may happen:

1. Zero does nothing, because they've sold all the 2016 production they care to sell.
2. Zero will extend the promotion further throughout the rest of the year, potentially under another name. "Zero: because we HATE money" promotion has a nice ring to it. This may be incorporated into a permanent price drop, as with 2015.
3. Zero will quietly work with dealers to offer special incentives and get rid of any demo bikes. These are likely to be pretty reasonable discounts, especially after the 2017 bikes are announced.

Now, why hasn't Zero simply made the price cut permanent, as with 2015? Possibly because they're gearing up for an effective price increase in 2017 - at least relative to the promotion price that has run for most of 2016. A price bump - as in MY2015, when prices at model introduction rose a small $300 over MY2014 prices - will be poorly received unless there's significant improvements.

Here's what I think they could do for 2017:

1. IPM motors across the board

Hopefully Zero has closed out of all their old stock motors and can fit the new motors to the FX and the 3 brick bikes. Reduces inventory from 5 different motors to 3. The new motor is more efficient = less heat, which improves sustained top speed from 80 to 85 mph, similar to the high-temp magnet motors in the pre-2016 SR. This is important because..

2. S / DS get a 660 amp controllers as standard

In volume, the Sevcon Size 6 doesn't cost much more than the Size 4 in the existing S / DS. Introducing the larger controller in the lower cost bike allows Zero to hide the effective price bump by eliminating their promotion pricing .. and sell it as a price-cut relative to the 2016 SR. Sure, the motor may not have high-temp magnets, but I suspect most riders that aren't ponying up for the top-spec bike will be delighted by the extra acceleration.

Fitting the 660 amp controller on the 3 brick bikes is possible in part because of the higher power cells used in the 2016 bike. 40 kW from the 2013/2014 ZF8.5 25 Ah cells was ~5.3C discharge; 50 kW from the 2016 ZF9.8 29 Ah cells is ~5.8C discharge. This seems reasonable given Farfle's praise.

A 3 brick bike is going to be significantly lighter than the 4 brick SR .. call it 3.5 seconds 0-60. Oddly it will weigh almost exactly the same as a 2013 4 brick S, due to small weight gains over the years. ABS, beefier frames, larger motor controllers, etc all add up.

Moving the Size 6 to the S / DS frees up the SR for ...

3. Dual 420 amp controllers for the SR / DSR

All-in power play. How does 75 kW / 100 hp sound? 50% jump in motor torque gives them a lot of room to play with gearing. Fitting the 98 tooth rear sprocket will significantly boost top speed, and the front sprocket gives them some room to play.

25 tooth front - 2.7s 0-60, 115 mph top speed
28 tooth front - 3.0s 0-60, 128 mph top speed
30 tooth front - 3.2s 0-60, 137 mph top speed

Bear in mind I'm calculating these from an assumption that the SR is really a 3.6s 0-60 bike, which has basically been borne out by virtually every instrumented test. Any of these options will improve on their 3.3s 0-60 claim without having to eat crow; I think they may favor the middle option, and perhaps call it "2.9s" 0-60 and "130" mph top speed.

Top speed isn't quite the same, but acceleration should be very similar to Energica Ego, at a much cheaper price. High-speed acceleration above 70 mph will be hugely better than existing SR .. like double or more.

Particularly if...

4. SR gains a sport fairing

Sport bike riders want it. Zero can incorporate a ram duct or low pressure areas to force air over the motor, helping to cool it at low speeds. Particularly if doing the latter, perhaps they can also make a small aero improvement .. but probably styling concerns will keep any actual aero improvement minor at best. (I hope Zero proves me wrong..)

The fairing may well be optional. Call it $1000 premium over 2016.

5. Zero continues to use the same cells, motors, and controllers as last year

I'd love to see them bring even higher capacity cells from Farasis. Frankly, it's kind of crazy they went from 25 to 27 to 29 Ah in 3 years already. Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong :)

Sevcon's Gen 5 appears to be initially targeting high voltage applications. I expect they will introduce a lower voltage Gen 5 eventually; however, they haven't publicly announced a LV Gen 5 and Zero apparently wasn't testing with anything secret at Refuel.

Motors as previously mentioned will standardize across the lineup. All IPM all the time.

6. ZF3.3 Power Tank

Again .. long past time. One common cell in all bikes / shipping battery products. Will be a very small improvement in Power Tank range - figure 2% or so, but that's enough to bump Zero over the perceptually important 200 mile mark in city range, and 100 miles of highway range.

7. Price cut for FX / FXS

Because the FX and FXS won't see any significant improvements this year, the promotion prices for 2016 get permanent.


New pricing:

2017 FX / FXS ZF3.3 $7845 - with the federal motorcycle credit, Zero's cheapest bike ever - 2012 XU and 2008-2009 X were $7.5k to $8k.
2017 FX / FXS ZF6.5 $10345 - $9995 sounds like a much more attractive price..
2017 S / DS ZF9.8 $10995 - holding the pricing line here, but new motor and controller at this price point are going to bring a lot of interest
2017 S / DS ZF13 $12995 - beefier controller and a $1000 price cut from 2016? most will walk in to check out the ZF9.8 and walk out with a ZF13. Maybe this moves to $13495 and the PT to $15995.
2017 S / DS ZF16.3 PT $15495 - still steep, but almost 50% more range than the $16k 2013 S ZF11.4
2017 SR / DSR ZF13 $15995 - again holding the 2016 pricing line, and a wider price gap for the R products vs the S / DS ZF13. Huge jump in performance makes this an easy sell for sport riders.
2017 SR / DSR ZF16.3 PT $18495 - quite pricey once you tick all the options .. still far cheaper than the Empulse TT, which now is not even remotely in the same performance ballpark

Who knows if Zero will do all or any of this.. seems a little crazy.
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mguw

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Re: Improvement possible for 2017 ZERO
« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2016, 12:50:37 AM »

Hi

I'd like to have
- fast charge
- wheelie setting in app for SR (torque is enough,  just need to come faster)
- 2x wider belt,  current is way to weak

A+
Marcel

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Cortezdtv

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Re: Improvement possible for 2017 ZERO
« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2016, 05:59:55 AM »

Did nobody notice?


Seen them at refuel
Seen it in a pphc bike that placed second

Pics are on the zero fb site.... Figured you all would be stirring the pot with this upgrade.... Wow im jealous if I only had two of thoes big fuckers i could easily make my next project

Talking about this bike?



Lots of changes on the bike.. not sure which "big fucker" you're referring to. Different wheels and brakes, steering damper, chain, rearsets..

Looks longer than usual,

there are 2 modules in every other fx ive seen
Besides one at refuel
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protomech

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Re: Improvement possible for 2017 ZERO
« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2016, 07:02:50 AM »

Ah, good catch. It looks approximately the same length as the other FX / FXS modules.



It's possible they repackaged the enclosure to save a bit of weight; perhaps hard-wiring and removing some of the modular connector bits. It doesn't seem reasonable for them to have repacked additional cells; the controller is already running right at its peak (116V DC).
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mrwilsn

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Re: Improvement possible for 2017 ZERO
« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2016, 08:08:27 AM »

Did nobody notice?


Seen them at refuel
Seen it in a pphc bike that placed second

Pics are on the zero fb site.... Figured you all would be stirring the pot with this upgrade.... Wow im jealous if I only had two of thoes big fuckers i could easily make my next project

Talking about this bike?



Lots of changes on the bike.. not sure which "big fucker" you're referring to. Different wheels and brakes, steering damper, chain, rearsets..

Looks longer than usual,

there are 2 modules in every other fx ive seen
Besides one at refuel
I think it's just an illusion because the stock bikes have plastic over the triangle space between the motor and the controller, they have the "tank plastic" that points forward, and the custom tank/seat on this bike are moved back from stock. I think all that combines to make it look longer but it's really the same.

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Cortezdtv

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Re: Improvement possible for 2017 ZERO
« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2016, 08:30:31 AM »

No its a longer brick Ive seen one at refuel; the fx platform only needs a tiny kick in the pants to be an amazing bike (for myself who has a power/throttle addiction just on the acceleration), maybe this will help close this gap, heck a little extra range never hurts
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Harlan

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Re: Improvement possible for 2017 ZERO
« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2016, 08:35:30 AM »

I don't think you see what you think you see. They were running a home built pack ~150V with a high voltage sevcon gen4.

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mrwilsn

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Re: Improvement possible for 2017 ZERO
« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2016, 08:51:41 AM »

1. IPM motors across the board

Hopefully Zero has closed out of all their old stock motors and can fit the new motors to the FX and the 3 brick bikes. Reduces inventory from 5 different motors to 3. The new motor is more efficient = less heat, which improves sustained top speed from 80 to 85 mph, similar to the high-temp magnet motors in the pre-2016 SR. This is important because..

3. Dual 420 amp controllers for the SR / DSR

All-in power play. How does 75 kW / 100 hp sound? 50% jump in motor torque gives them a lot of room to play with gearing. Fitting the 98 tooth rear sprocket will significantly boost top speed, and the front sprocket gives them some room to play.

25 tooth front - 2.7s 0-60, 115 mph top speed
28 tooth front - 3.0s 0-60, 128 mph top speed
30 tooth front - 3.2s 0-60, 137 mph top speed

Bear in mind I'm calculating these from an assumption that the SR is really a 3.6s 0-60 bike, which has basically been borne out by virtually every instrumented test. Any of these options will improve on their 3.3s 0-60 claim without having to eat crow; I think they may favor the middle option, and perhaps call it "2.9s" 0-60 and "130" mph top speed.

Top speed isn't quite the same, but acceleration should be very similar to Energica Ego, at a much cheaper price. High-speed acceleration above 70 mph will be hugely better than existing SR .. like double or more.

Particularly if...

4. SR gains a sport fairing

Sport bike riders want it. Zero can incorporate a ram duct or low pressure areas to force air over the motor, helping to cool it at low speeds. Particularly if doing the latter, perhaps they can also make a small aero improvement .. but probably styling concerns will keep any actual aero improvement minor at best. (I hope Zero proves me wrong..)

The fairing may well be optional. Call it $1000 premium over 2016.

5. Zero continues to use the same cells, motors, and controllers as last year

I'd love to see them bring even higher capacity cells from Farasis. Frankly, it's kind of crazy they went from 25 to 27 to 29 Ah in 3 years already. Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong :)

Sevcon's Gen 5 appears to be initially targeting high voltage applications. I expect they will introduce a lower voltage Gen 5 eventually; however, they haven't publicly announced a LV Gen 5 and Zero apparently wasn't testing with anything secret at Refuel.

Motors as previously mentioned will standardize across the lineup. All IPM all the time.

6. ZF3.3 Power Tank

Again .. long past time. One common cell in all bikes / shipping battery products. Will be a very small improvement in Power Tank range - figure 2% or so, but that's enough to bump Zero over the perceptually important 200 mile mark in city range, and 100 miles of highway range.

1. I think IPM across the board is likely.  It only makes sense to keep the number of different motors they make to a minimum. 75-5 for the FX/FXS, 75-7 for the S/DS and 75-7R for the SR/DSR.  Which just means that the FX and S/DS ZF9.8 get upgrades to IPM but Zero eliminates two part numbers from their inventory.

3. I'm not sure Zero would do the dual 420A controllers unless they could do it without adding liquid cooling...which I'm not sure can be done...I'm not sure the IPM cooling improvements get you there....maybe.  But I don't think Zero will go through the effort to integrate dual controllers if it means they have to add liquid.

4. Seriously....when is Zero going to make a bike with with a proper sport bike fairing??

5. I'm not familiar with the Gen5 controller.  If SEVCON made an LV version, what does Gen5 bring to the table?

6. Does Farasis have higher capacity cells on the market??  If they use the same cells as 2016 then I think it is highly likely that the power tank will get the boost.  Someone said when they sent their for the 2013 monolith upgrade their bike came back with a ZF13.  They may already be delivering ZF3.3 power tanks without advertising it.
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